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LMS grey versus bauxite colour of wagons


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Writing from the USA, so excuse a basic question.  RTR wagons of the LMS are available in both grey and bauxite.  Were these colors random or are there dates (time periods) during which grey or bauxite are most appropriate?

 

Thanks you

George

North Carolina

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The choice of colour wasn’t random.

 

when first formed in 1922, the LMS basically chose to follow Midland Railway practice - which used grey with large white lettering on freight vehicles.

 

later on (1928 IIRC) the boss of the LMS knew things had to change and big alterations were made so he head hunted Stainer from the GWR.

 

One of the other changes that was made was to change the livery of freight stock to bulluxite with small lettering.

 

Obviously not everything changed overnight - mundane things like wagons did not get repainted unless they needed it, so a mix of liveries in a post 1928 setting is perfectly acceptable.

 

 

Please note that under the LMS there was no difference between the livery for fitted and unfitted wagons. It was a BR invention that saw grey = unfitted, bulluxite = fitted.

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9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The choice of colour wasn’t random.

 

when first formed in 1922, the LMS basically chose to follow Midland Railway practice - which used grey with large white lettering on freight vehicles.

 

later on (1928 IIRC) the boss of the LMS knew things had to change and big alterations were made so he head hunted Stainer from the GWR.

 

One of the other changes that was made was to change the livery of freight stock to bulluxite with small lettering.

 

Obviously not everything changed overnight - mundane things like wagons did not get repainted unless they needed it, so a mix of liveries in a post 1928 setting is perfectly acceptable.

 

 

Please note that under the LMS there was no difference between the livery for fitted and unfitted wagons. It was a BR invention that saw grey = unfitted, bulluxite = fitted.

The date of the changeover from grey to bauxite was 1936.

 

Edit to add.

 

1936 was also the date that the Big 4, agreed to reduce the size of the lettering on the wagons.

 

More info can be found on this post.

 

 

 

Edited by kevinlms
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Wagons seemed to carry old liveries for many years after new ones had been introduced, despite the best efforts of those trying to enforce the latest 'corporate identity'. I've just bought David Larkin's latest work, dealing with private-owner and 'Big 4' steel-bodied minerals taken over by British Railways in 1948. Whilst wagons still carrying old liveries for a couple of years after ownership changes are to be expected, it was quite surprising to find an LMS built, steel-bodied, 16t mineral wagon still in LMS 'bauxite' in 1968. It wasn't at some distant outpost, somewhere beyond the Celtic Fringe, either, but at Strood, in North Kent, about 20 miles out of London.

 

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8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Please note that under the LMS there was no difference between the livery for fitted and unfitted wagons. It was a BR invention that saw grey = unfitted, bulluxite = fitted.

 

Not a BR 'invention' at all, the LNER used that system which followed on from NER practice, not that there were that many fitted (westinghouse, vacuum or dual) vehicles back then compared with BR days.

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9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The choice of colour wasn’t random.

 

when first formed in 1922, the LMS basically chose to follow Midland Railway practice - which used grey with large white lettering on freight vehicles.

 

later on (1928 IIRC) the boss of the LMS knew things had to change and big alterations were made so he head hunted Stainer from the GWR.

 

One of the other changes that was made was to change the livery of freight stock to bulluxite with small lettering.

 

Obviously not everything changed overnight - mundane things like wagons did not get repainted unless they needed it, so a mix of liveries in a post 1928 setting is perfectly acceptable.

 

 

Please note that under the LMS there was no difference between the livery for fitted and unfitted wagons. It was a BR invention that saw grey = unfitted, bulluxite = fitted.

Not sure Mr.Stanier had any hand in this change from grey to bolluxite bauxite whatsoever ........... and if anyone's ignorant of the term, it's the mineral from which alooominum aluminium is derived.

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1 minute ago, Wickham Green said:

Not sure Mr.Stanier had any hand in this change from grey to bolluxite bauxite whatsoever ........... and if anyone's ignorant of the term, it's the mineral from which alooominum aluminium is derived.

Bauxite is often used as a primer on steelwork; I wonder if the change from grey was related to the increasing use of steel components (pressed-steel ends for vans and opens), and all-steel bodies. If you were going to paint the ironwork with this, why not the rest of the body?

Incidentally, there must still be stocks of 'bauxite' around; I've seen quite a few DB Cargo steel carriers recently, patch-painted over repairs with something that seems very close to BR (pre-1964) bauxite

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I hadn't thought of the increasing use of steel in wagon and van bodies as being a reason for introducing bauxite livery, Brian W, but it makes complete sense!  

 

To confuse matters further, there is a distinct difference between the actual shade of bauxite used by the LMS post 1936 and the one used by BR, with the LMS looking a bit more orange and the BR more brown.  The BR livery looked different between steel and wooden surfaces as well, and it is very easy when discussing actual shades of livery to become bogged down in subjective opinion as the same vehicle can look a radically different colour within the few seconds it takes for the sun to emerge from behind a cloud...

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52 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I hadn't thought of the increasing use of steel in wagon and van bodies as being a reason for introducing bauxite livery, Brian W, but it makes complete sense!  

 

To confuse matters further, there is a distinct difference between the actual shade of bauxite used by the LMS post 1936 and the one used by BR, with the LMS looking a bit more orange and the BR more brown.  The BR livery looked different between steel and wooden surfaces as well, and it is very easy when discussing actual shades of livery to become bogged down in subjective opinion as the same vehicle can look a radically different colour within the few seconds it takes for the sun to emerge from behind a cloud...

Regardless of the SHADE of the colour, it ought to be remembered that almost universally, the solebars were painted the same colour as the body.

 

Generations of RTR models have got it wrong, millions have been made as a black shiny plastic, with a coloured body stuck or screwed on. Amongst others, the current Hornby Railroad range still does it this way.

 

Fixing this (not easy to match the paint colour), makes a large difference to the appearance of a model.

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5 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Regardless of the SHADE of the colour, it ought to be remembered that almost universally, the solebars were painted the same colour as the body.

 

Generations of RTR models have got it wrong, millions have been made as a black shiny plastic, with a coloured body stuck or screwed on. Amongst others, the current Hornby Railroad range still does it this way.

 

Fixing this (not easy to match the paint colour), makes a large difference to the appearance of a model.

ALMOST universally ............. except on the L.N.E.R. ( maybe a predecessor, too ? ) when the solebar was steel - also Wolverton-built vehicles on the L.M.S. from about 1942 ( if the grey cells remember correctly )  .... and, of course the official B.R. paint scheme included black solebars ( no doubt where the 'problem' arose ) though it was far from universal in its application.

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9 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Not sure Mr.Stanier had any hand in this change from grey to bolluxite bauxite whatsoever ........... and if anyone's ignorant of the term, it's the mineral from which alooominum aluminium is derived.

 

I didn't mean to say that Mr Stainer had any direct influence on the livery choice for wagons - but rather that the livery change occurred around the time serious changes (one of which was Mr Staniers appointment) were being made across the LMS as a whole.

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Livery questions never have simple answers.

 

The LMS also used a dark brown/red colour for some freight stock, but what the difference between this and the bauxite means I do not know; I am sure someone more erudite in matters LMS will be along shortly to elucidate us, though!

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50 minutes ago, george stein said:

And I thought this was a simple question. Silly me. Thanks for all the comments: most informative.

 

George

North Carolina

Nothing is simple for railways, largely because they are an evolving entity, with long lifetimes of much of the equipment.

 

Also lots of deviation away from the LMS and discussion on other railways & BR, which has little to do with the LMS pre WW2.

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Going back to painting vehicles different colours depending on their brake status. In BR days the vacuum pipes were painted red for braked vehicles and white for through pipe only vehicles. Did this also have pre-war origins and did different companies have different codes, or did the colour codes change over time?  

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On 02/05/2019 at 00:28, The Johnster said:

Livery questions never have simple answers.

 

The LMS also used a dark brown/red colour for some freight stock, but what the difference between this and the bauxite means I do not know; I am sure someone more erudite in matters LMS will be along shortly to elucidate us, though!

 

Are you thinking of the crimson lake used for NPCS including some goods wagon like vehicles such as fish trucks and CCTs? I believe in the post war period there were some variations on this, tending to brown - i.e. not finished to the same level as passenger stock.

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Possibly; I am no expert on matters LMS.  I have a Bachmann 3 planker in late LMS livery which is in this colour, with 'N' brandings on the sides at each end which I believe the LMS and Southern used to denote vehicles not in common pool use and to be returned to the railway if they went astray; this would presumably apply to fish trucks.  My 3 planker has a vacuum cylinder but no XP markings allowing it to run with passenger rated stock.  

 

It is exactly as you describe in that it is a sort of dark brownish/red colour, further darkened by my weathering.  On my layout it is assumed to be a pool vehicle as this is post-nationalisation, but retains it's LMS livery.  But it's quite a different colour from LMS passenger crimson lake, not that I want to restart the discussion about exactly what that is...  

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Are you thinking of the crimson lake used for NPCS including some goods wagon like vehicles such as fish trucks and CCTs? I believe in the post war period there were some variations on this, tending to brown - i.e. not finished to the same level as passenger stock.

 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that there was a 'Crimson Lake undercoat' finish, varnished but without the top coats of lake, I think it was described as a reddy-purple-brown. I think I was looking for the colour for fish vans post war.

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I've had a quick look in my rather limited library of books on LMS-built rolling stock but can't find confirmation of this; I think I've seen it in the livery section of the instructions for the Parkside kit for the D2059 fish van - these were built in 1941 so a simplified style of painting isn't surprising. What is surprising is that there was a need for more fish vans then - conditions would not have been very favourable for fishing just then.

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On 02/05/2019 at 07:08, Trog said:

Going back to painting vehicles different colours depending on their brake status. In BR days the vacuum pipes were painted red for braked vehicles and white for through pipe only vehicles. Did this also have pre-war origins and did different companies have different codes, or did the colour codes change over time?  

 

As Worsdell forever pointed out above, ONLY the LNER used different colours to differentiate between wagons with vacuum brakes and unfitted wagons.

 

The newly formed British Railways saw this as a good idea and started to apply it apply it to the entire wagon fleet.

 

Any changes to the colour of freight wagons by the rest of the big 4 was simply a change in their corporate colour schemes - usually due to a need to cut costs.

Edited by phil-b259
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9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As Worsdell forever pointed out above, ONLY the LNER used different colours to differentiate between wagons with vacuum brakes and unfitted wagons.

 

The newly formed British Railways saw this as a good idea and started to apply it apply it to the entire wagon fleet.

 

Any changes to the colour of freight wagons by the rest of the big 4 was simply a change in their corporate colour schemes - usually due to a need to cut costs.

 

I was NOT ASKING ABOUT THE WAGON COLOUR but only about the colour of the metal part of the brake pipe.

 

I know that BR used red and white for vacuum and blow through.

A quick Google suggests that the LNER might have used red and unpainted for vacuum and blow through.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere of an LNWR wagon with the pipe painted purple.

 

I just wondered if anyone else knew more?

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On 01/05/2019 at 10:43, Fat Controller said:

Bauxite is often used as a primer on steelwork; I wonder if the change from grey was related to the increasing use of steel components (pressed-steel ends for vans and opens), and all-steel bodies. If you were going to paint the ironwork with this, why not the rest of the body?

Incidentally, there must still be stocks of 'bauxite' around; I've seen quite a few DB Cargo steel carriers recently, patch-painted over repairs with something that seems very close to BR (pre-1964) bauxite

Brian, it’s “red oxide primer”. The railway has some standard colours. Mainly Red, Yellow, Black and White. Plus Red Oxide or Green primer. 

As mentiord. Repaints are rare. Mostly patch paint. 

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On 01/05/2019 at 15:28, Fat Controller said:

It's possible that the LMS paint may have been 'red lead' . This was used as a primer on steel work, and also to paint the lower part of ships' hulls. It's toxic, which may have seen it taken out of use wherever possible.

 

Where or not this was the case I couldn't possibly say as I'm not that ancient, but as a general observation bauxite wagons seem to go very dark very quickly. Red Lead on the other hand although starting off as a rich  red brown, very rapidly oxodizes to a very distinctive pink - very.

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