LMS grey versus bauxite colour of wagons

[31A]

On 02/05/2019 at 07:08, Trog said:

Going back to painting vehicles different colours depending on their brake status. In BR days the vacuum pipes were painted red for braked vehicles and white for through pipe only vehicles. Did this also have pre-war origins and did different companies have different codes, or did the colour codes change over time?  

 

I read your question, and meant to answer but didn't have access to books to check at the time and then forgot!

 

You are correct, the LNER followed a similar principal.  From "A Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons" (P. Tatlow, first edition) "The vacuum train pipes of vehicles fitted with automatic brakes were painted black, whereas those that only had through pipes had the pipes painted red".  By which I assume is meant the kind of red used for loco buffer beams for example rather than the "red" livery colour.  Evidently BR changed it to the colours you mentioned, which does sound more logical!

[Fat Controller]

I think the painting of the connections of brake pipes to identify them may date back to the early days of the UIC. SNCF refer to a through piped vehicle as having a 'Conduité a Blanche'.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Caledonian said:

 

Where or not this was the case I couldn't possibly say as I'm not that ancient, but as a general observation bauxite wagons seem to go very dark very quickly. Red Lead on the other hand although starting off as a rich  red brown, very rapidly oxodizes to a very distinctive pink - very.

 

R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) gives LMS paint specifications, unfortunately undated. For vehicles finished in "bauxite", the principal ingredient is listed as bauxite. This is, I assume, a pigment derived from the aluminium ore, although modern pigments described as "bauxite" are in fact based on iron oxides. A primer for steel is also listed, the pigment being "oxide of iron, in oil, type R (red shade)"; this is also the chief ingredient in the undercoat for lake, producing a "brown undercoat".

 

The mix for the lead colour for wagons (i.e. grey) has as its chief ingredient zinc white, zinc (II) oxide, with a small amount of black. The formula is very close to that used in Midland days except that white lead (a form of lead carbonate) had been used; according to R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1980), the change to zinc white took place in 1929. Similarly, in pre-grouping days, red lead was the pigment more often used for "red" wagons - as Caledonian says (and he ought to know, as it was the colour of Caledonian Railway wagons), a richer red shade rather than the brown of bauxite. It's interesting that there was a move away from lead-based paints even in the 20s/30s; was this driven purely by economic factors or was there already concern about toxicity?

 

White lead reacts with sulfur compounds - prevalent in atmospheric pollution in those days - to form black lead sulfide, so "lead grey" wagons became darker over time. As zinc is higher up the reactivity series than lead, I think the reaction with sulfur compounds is less favourable, so the zinc-white based lead colour would be more stable - could a more expert chemist confirm?

[asmay2002]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) gives LMS paint specifications, unfortunately undated. For vehicles finished in "bauxite", the principal ingredient is listed as bauxite. This is, I assume, a pigment derived from the aluminium ore, although modern pigments described as "bauxite" are in fact based on iron oxides.

 

White lead reacts with sulfur compounds - prevalent in atmospheric pollution in those days - to form black lead sulfide, so "lead grey" wagons became darker over time. As zinc is higher up the reactivity series than lead, I think the reaction with sulfur compounds is less favourable, so the zinc-white based lead colour would be more stable - could a more expert chemist confirm?

 

Bauxite ore as dug out of the ground is a mixture of compounds.  It's the iron oxide contaminants in it that give it the red/brown colour.

 

Zinc white is definitely more stable than white lead.

[gwrrob]

A bump for this thread to ask if there's a rattle can recommendation for LMS freight grey please.

[Steamport Southport]

I don't know whether they are still the same but I used to use the Halfords Grey Primer. A good primer to use which had the benefit that it was the right shade for wagons.

 

It was a good match for the early BR era grey which was a very similar shade to LMS grey.

 

 

However I mostly use Phoenix in tins now. They do them in aerosols though they are more expensive.

 

The two colours to compare shows the LMS to be a little bit darker but personally I could live with that. (I know it's on a computer screen  )

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/bigfour/lmsbigfour/14p38

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/p126

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

I use Halfords Grey Primer as a primer with Precision LMS freight stock grey - which seem to me to be the right shade for Midland and LMS wagons (there was no difference between the two - avoid Precision MR freight stock grey which is a sort of green). The Halfords primer is a subtly different shad of grey and not quite right to my thinking.

[Aire Head]

On 04/05/2019 at 21:08, The Johnster said:

My 3 planker has a vacuum cylinder but no XP markings allowing it to run with passenger rated stock.  

The Bachmann underframe is incorrect here to my understanding as the fitted version had 8 Shoe clasp brakes at that time and the unfitted version had a 2 Shoe Morton brake.

 

Later conversion by BR of unfitted vehicles into fitted are the only think the Bachmann chassis would accurately represent to the best of my knowledge.

 

*Puts on tin helmet*

 

On 04/05/2019 at 21:29, Compound2632 said:

I've had a quick look in my rather limited library of books on LMS-built rolling stock but can't find confirmation of this; I think I've seen it in the livery section of the instructions for the Parkside kit for the D2059 fish van - these were built in 1941 so a simplified style of painting isn't surprising. What is surprising is that there was a need for more fish vans then - conditions would not have been very favourable for fishing just then.

 

Less ability to import food means a greater pressure on domestic food supplies so the local fishing boats are expected to produce more and as such there is a greater demand for transportation.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Aire Head
Just seem that the comments I responded to are from last year! Teach me not to check

[57xx]

7 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Just seem that the comments I responded to are from last year! Teach me not to check

 

Still useful to know though.  

It's not like Reddit round here, where if you answer something from 5 minutes ago you get accused of resurrecting a dead thread.

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

Out of interest what is the Humbrol equivalent to LMS freight grey ?

[Nile]

And another question, did LMS grey weather/darken in the same way as MR grey?

[57xx]

2 hours ago, Nile said:

And another question, did LMS grey weather/darken in the same way as MR grey?

 

Depends which grey... Immediately after grouping, I would say yes, but at some point they switched to zinc white in the mix so that would not have darkened like the mix with lead white. The only reference I have for this is the 1935 paint schedule in "The LMS Wagon", but it doesn't say if these mixes were used earlier than 1935. The later "Lead colour" mix 5 (which is the one using zinc white...) also had a proportion of ultramarine blue in so it was not identical to MR grey.

 

Going back to LMS Bauxite discussed earlier, the top coat for this had a proportion of black in, most likely the thing that gave it a browner hue over redder iron oxide colours.

Edited July 29, 2020 by 57xx

[57xx]

On 29/07/2020 at 19:07, gwrrob said:

Out of interest what is the Humbrol equivalent to LMS freight grey ?

 

Hi Rob, I don't have many Humbrol greys to compare with, but dug out my reference card I did a while back to show a couple of examples:

 

Top row is all the "correct" Phoenix Precision colours, middle grey is Revell, H64 and 67 are the Humbrol colours I have.

Edited November 19, 2022 by 57xx

[Steamport Southport]

Humbrol used to have an LMS grey in the Railway Colours range. That too had a greenish tinge.

 

Found a tin of it recently but it had dried up.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

Hi Rob, I don't have many Humbrol greys to compare with, but dug out my reference card I did a while back to show a couple of examples:

 

That Precision P38 patch looks rather darker than the P38 I'm using. If I had to use a colour from your patch card for freshly-painted Midland/LMS grey, it would be the Humbrol 64 - which I have occasionally used. However, the Halfords primer also looks darker on your card than I find it is in practice, so it may just be the lighting. The Revell 76 isn't grey, it's lavender!

 

Lighting can make a big difference. This is Humbrol 64, as far as I can remember!

 

 

The first photo is darker and greener than the colour as I see it in the flesh, whilst the second is too blue. It's the same cutting mat in both photos.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Compound2632

[jim.snowdon]

It is a fair bet that all of these greys, with the exception of the Midland Railway's "smudge" (which reportedly included a lot of leftovers in its mix) are approximate mixtures of white lead and black lead paints. The exact shade was not critical, even between batches in the same railway/wagon works.

 

Jim

[57xx]

The colours do all look darker than I'd expected, I think it is partly down to the tweaking in photoshop. The pic was taken in natural sunlight. I've tried to do colour correction but probably haven't done a great job, I can see a blue tinge to the top left white background. It will also appear different on everyone's monitor depending on their colour calibration and brightness settings.

Humbrol 67 is lighter on wagons that appears on the pic and agree that the LMS P38 looks darker than I see on actual wagons I've painted with it. The H64 is a very old tin and doesn't look the same as the current Humbrol reference chart.

Regardless, perceptions aside, what the chart does show is the relative differences between the greys.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

It is a fair bet that all of these greys, with the exception of the Midland Railway's "smudge" (which reportedly included a lot of leftovers in its mix) are approximate mixtures of white lead and black lead paints. The exact shade was not critical, even between batches in the same railway/wagon works.

 

So you say but specifications exist for Midland and LMS grey, giving quantities by weight of the ingredients. In a large wagon works of a large and well-run organisation, one might expect the specification to be pretty reliably adhered to. Some of the organic ingredients - thinners etc. - might vary in composition from batch to batch and perhaps have some small effect on the finished colour (in the yellow region of the spectrum, most likely). I would expect adherence to the specification to become more rigid in LMS days.

 

But as @57xx says, that's only the ex-works colour; with white lead as the principal ingredient there would be chemical darkening with exposure to atmospheric hydrogen sulfide, so any darker non-blue grey will do - but have in mind the date your model is set relative to the build date of the wagon: if you're modelling c. 1933, a model of a D1666 5-plank open from a 1924 batch will be darker than a model of one from a 1929 batch, unless you believe that wagons were infallibly repainted every seven years, in which case it will be lighter...

[gwrrob]

2 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

Hi Rob, I don't have many Humbrol greys to compare with, but dug out my reference card I did a while back to show a couple of examples:

Top row is all the "correct" Phoenix Precision colours, middle grey is Revell, H64 and 67 are the Humbrol colours I have.

 

Thanks for doing that Ric and food for thought.

[AlfaZagato]

Bringing this thread up again.   Was there any priority given one way or another to repaint & relabeling of wagons?   I ask as I have the N Gauge Society MR van kit.   I try to model about 1937 in N, so I was wondering what would be the most likely combination of gray to bauxite, & large to small lettering.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

I ask as I have the N Gauge Society MR van kit.   I try to model about 1937 in N, so I was wondering what would be the most likely combination of gray to bauxite, & large to small lettering.

 

Essery, Midland Wagons, has one photo of this type of van in LMS bauxite - 8 ton No. 90766. As it was photographed within three months of painting, the paint date can be read: 30.1.39. 

[Wickham Green too]

Both the bauxite colour and small lettering were recent introductions in 1937 so only a small proportion of the fleet would have carried them.

[Aire Head]

13 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Bringing this thread up again.   Was there any priority given one way or another to repaint & relabeling of wagons?   I ask as I have the N Gauge Society MR van kit.   I try to model about 1937 in N, so I was wondering what would be the most likely combination of gray to bauxite, & large to small lettering.

 

Repainting would be done as wagons went through the workshops so I wouldn't have expected any particular priority to have been applied.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Both the bauxite colour and small lettering were recent introductions in 1937 so only a small proportion of the fleet would have carried them.

 

At this point I have to point out that the simplified carriage livery had only been around for two and a half years (assuming you're modelling summer 1937) so with a seven-year carriage repainting cycle, two-thirds of your carriages should be in the fully lined livery.