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The trams that time forgot


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2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Watching it move, it took me a few moments to work out what wasn't right. No overhead wires. There is a third rail but concluded that was for a different gauge rather than power as folk were standing on it! I was torn between batteries and magic but in the end settled on batteries as the power source.

If you read the post immediately above the video you would have seen the answer!

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3 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you read the post immediately above the video you would have seen the answer!

 

Yes, but I took the video and watched the real thing on Sunday. The post mentioning battery power came after that.

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I said that I would model on a number of fronts.

 

Those that know me may have wondered what wagonbasher was doing messing with the steamy mass transit of passengers rather than freight.

 

Well.   There is always room for a bit of freight.

 

All steam tram systems had PW wagons but more about those later...

 

This project was patented and used for a while by the South Staffordshire Tramways,  Local authorities muscled the idea out after a few years (two noisy too much) but for a while this was urban freight on the Black Country Streets. 

 

This is a road rail wagon.

 

The goods would be picked up from the 'supplier' by this horse and cart.  Four equal 3 foot diameter wheels, with what looks like removable sides.    The 'Oss' takes the wagon to the tramway...  No provision for wagon driver looking at the drawing so presumably the Oss and wagon are lead.

 

Once the wagon reaches the tramway,  a steam tram locomotive or the  Oss traction position the wagon over the rails and a second set of wheels, road wheels  are lowered down onto the rails using a windlass on the wagon.  As the rail wheels are lowered onto the rails taking the weight of the wagon they lift the road wheels off the floor.  The steering turntable is locked.

 

A wagon on rails is easier and quicker to pull for the horse, heavier weights, less lumps and bumps from unmade roads.  Once close to the destination the road wheels are lowered back down, the rail wheels lifting up and the steering turntable unlocked.  Then the Oss or a different OSS takes the wagon away from the tramway to the customer.

 

1369523702_roadrailwagonsouthstaffs.jpg.cc911a078329788a46b1e93838a2b2bc.jpg

 

1073183300_southsstaffsroadrailwagon.jpg.590c9801af85b66ce9d949f11348dcb4.jpg

Images from the Kinnear Clarke book from 1894

 

Its not clear what happens to the 'shafts' in transit on the rails as there is nothing on the drawing, I suspect that they would be hinged (they are hinged anyway) upright and strapped in place

 

Andy Duncan has a good range of 7mm horses, carts, wagons, traction engines etc in both white metal and brass.

 

This will form the basis of the road rail wagon model:

 

650872574_coalwagonimage.jpg.63f7198f0e9f91397111067e4ef753d0.jpg

 

I only need the deck, the wheels and the under frame.

 

301166549_coalwagon.jpg.82640f86d8f815bd43f7529c67a73ec2.jpg

 

I can get 'HO' / TT  wagon wheels at 8mm (just over a foot in 7mm) diameter from 'Branchlines', they are the Black beetle range of wheels (just wheels, not Black beetle bogies).  I will need to replace the axles to suite the 24.5mm gauge.  Order for wheels being placed this weekend.

 

Andy

 

 

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On 14/06/2019 at 13:40, 2ManySpams said:

 

Yes, but I took the video and watched the real thing on Sunday. The post mentioning battery power came after that.

 

Having driven the paved track next to it, there is alot of gravity involved heading down the hill.

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Well, its not a year since my last post but its getting near.

 

Have I moved the project on loads?  No

Have I done nothing?  No

 

I have added to the back to back houses,  Messed about painting some very smart Andrew Stadden figures (also seen the range of 'ragged Victorians' in the Modelu range - Fantastic

 

But recently I have turned my attention to locomotion.

 

The Kitson needs a chassis and a motor.

 

Chassis cut and drilled to accommodate spacers (I described these earlier in this thread).  So axle below the chimney is fixed, sliding hornblocks on the rear axle for compensation (allowing the rear axle to rock, keeping all wheels on the rail however dodgy ny track building is.

 

1975583071_kitsonchassissmall_jpg_a25d3d9355a700784fe3328ea47d3611.jpg.82ec7b1c2f478a4c97355949d93649e2.jpg

 

Motor and gear box from High Level.  Fantastic products, easy to make with really good instructions.  This is a 110 / 1 box with a relatively slow revving motor.  With the little wheels, the maximum scale speed I can achieve flat out is just under 10MPH which is all they were allowed to do.

 

508419992_kitsonmotor.png.6430054bff06ff87d49f5444e95d91ad.png

This shot show the two together, Note that I have remade the chassis spacers,  Even when fully tightened up the tubes still allowed the chassis to twist so they had to go.  In saying that they did make it easy to fit and cut the new spacers as the chassis spacing was already set.  Note the bar over the compensated axle, it is this that the floating axle rocks (sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, compensation is very understood in the world of finescale railways not sure it is seen much in tramway modelling).

847402404_KitsonChassisandmotor.jpg.939c4c8c29df9a3d9930a9b0a8c81234.jpg

 

Next with coupling rods fitted, it runs well, I have also added mounts for the pick ups.

367710087_kitsonchassisandmotorwithpickuplocatorsadded.jpg.52d9467aca754518209df156f4345f61.jpg

 

Finally I have made a start on the boiler to hid that motor.

1171526705_kitsonchassiswithboiler.jpg.d05dd5de365efa40659337c66f667a05.jpg

That's all for now, I'll try not to leave it so long next time

 

Andy

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On 17/04/2020 at 09:50, wagonbasher said:

Well, its not a year since my last post but its getting near.

 

Have I moved the project on loads?  No

Have I done nothing?  No

 

I have added to the back to back houses,  Messed about painting some very smart Andrew Stadden figures (also seen the range of 'ragged Victorians' in the Modelu range - Fantastic

 

But recently I have turned my attention to locomotion.

 

The Kitson needs a chassis and a motor.

 

Chassis cut and drilled to accommodate spacers (I described these earlier in this thread).  So axle below the chimney is fixed, sliding hornblocks on the rear axle for compensation (allowing the rear axle to rock, keeping all wheels on the rail however dodgy ny track building is.

 

1975583071_kitsonchassissmall_jpg_a25d3d9355a700784fe3328ea47d3611.jpg.82ec7b1c2f478a4c97355949d93649e2.jpg

 

Motor and gear box from High Level.  Fantastic products, easy to make with really good instructions.  This is a 110 / 1 box with a relatively slow revving motor.  With the little wheels, the maximum scale speed I can achieve flat out is just under 10MPH which is all they were allowed to do.

 

508419992_kitsonmotor.png.6430054bff06ff87d49f5444e95d91ad.png

This shot show the two together, Note that I have remade the chassis spacers,  Even when fully tightened up the tubes still allowed the chassis to twist so they had to go.  In saying that they did make it easy to fit and cut the new spacers as the chassis spacing was already set.  Note the bar over the compensated axle, it is this that the floating axle rocks (sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, compensation is very understood in the world of finescale railways not sure it is seen much in tramway modelling).

847402404_KitsonChassisandmotor.jpg.939c4c8c29df9a3d9930a9b0a8c81234.jpg

 

Next with coupling rods fitted, it runs well, I have also added mounts for the pick ups.

367710087_kitsonchassisandmotorwithpickuplocatorsadded.jpg.52d9467aca754518209df156f4345f61.jpg

 

Finally I have made a start on the boiler to hid that motor.

1171526705_kitsonchassiswithboiler.jpg.d05dd5de365efa40659337c66f667a05.jpg

That's all for now, I'll try not to leave it so long next time

 

Andy

 

 

Im not completely buying into the silhouette cutter, finding the laminating a bit hit and alignment and some warping.  Chosen for now to try brass for the body.  I have pended a thread on kitbuilding and scratcbuiding on rmweb to harvest the knowledge pool.

 

will post some pics soon

 

Andy

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At last will some time off work I can do some modelling.  The brass steam tram is missing materials, I cant find some bits in the garage so I have tackled something I enkjpy doing and requires very little materials and tools.

 

This is a very elegant Stadden figure referred to at Victorian / Edwardian passengers.

 

I personally feel that the styles are nearer the Edwardian period, definatly not working class and that what I need in the deprived black country that the trams traversed.

 

Her she is, massive hat, big hair with small pony tail, a dress to the floor with a fancy neck line and a sort of half skirt gathered and tied at the waste coming around to the front with fur trim.  A very dainty little umbrella.

IMG_5768.JPG.12e512335bd0a69ff826140b888e7e70.JPG

 

This is stage 1.  The lady has lost the brolly, the hat, much of the fur lining and that fancy neck line.  I have also given her a bit of a breast reduction, I figure the posh lady would have 'more support' than my working class woman.  She is almost a foot shorter, Even without the hat she was about 5 foot 10 inches, I imagine she would be wearing heels.  The vicorian women from the period I am modelling  dont seam to have dresses to the floor, rather they were sort of six inches above the floor and the footwear was usually visible.  So she will be about 6'6" when I have given here some boots. Rather a poor shot, I thought it was better than that.....

IMG_5769.JPG.c6c5f66fe0dc967553ceccf1509051e0.JPG

 

So, a lot of cleaning up with some wet and dry.  I have shaped the top of her head and added a ring of milliput to create a mop hat, she had to loose the little pony tail as the hair would be gathered inside the cap.  A lot of pictures I have seen show a good few inches of hair above the forehead, so I have tried to reflect that, the caps being worn further back that I had imagined.   I have filled the neck line, given her a piny and still need to give her something to hold where the brolly was.  Just need to add a wire spike and some boots as she will not be able to stand without help now that the skirt is not on the ground.  I suspect that dresses went to the floor in the Georgian time as there was less Horse muck on the floor.  (partially thanks to the presence of trams - electrics by then).IMG_5770.JPG.efa5248c72e444d3e6fd59b3a8d37699.JPGIMG_5771.JPG.a1fa54e2640d95962bc4f85f992e2399.JPGIMG_5775.JPG.fdb083dfa3fce8b2f7b63c00f282295b.JPG

 

Andy

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All painted up. well almost, she needs some work on her face.  probably need a beer before I tackle that:

 

You will see that her brolly has been replaced with a towel, Old Gringo told me I should give her a Smith and western.

 

251876196_workingclass.JPG.3926e7a2ad30126c7152c9fe3fc1c4e7.JPG

 

What I like is that she had  her arm on her hip when she wore her glamorous ball clothes,  Now Cinderella is wearing the dullest coloured dress ever it looks like she is nursing her aching back.

 

Andy

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I said earlier that I jump around...

 

Need some windows for the back to back building featured earlier.  I did have some laser cut card windows that I thought would fit the bill.  I found the surface texture would lift when I applied paint.  I have read about ways of combatting that but no need.

 

Sunday AM I designed some new sash windows on the software that came with the cameo cutter and this morning first thing I ran a sheet of 10 thou plasticard through the cutter.

 

Now 10 thou is about as thick as you can cut.  for very easy geometric shapes you could score 20 thou but if they are that easy who needs a cutter.

 

Even at 10 thou I didnt cut through, scoring enough for the parts to break out without too much effort.

 

To each sash window there is 5 parts.  2 laminatins of the bottom fixed pair of windows, two laminations of the upper sash and an outside frame.

 

1606459263_windowparts.JPG.4d9f936cc2b701239635c594a3a1f9fb.JPG

 

As they are only 10 thou they need to be laminated up using a slow evaporating solvent, limonene.

I do this against a square edge, you at times would need two square edges.  Using copy paste options in the software you can be sure they are all the same size so that they line up.  You will see that I am doing this on glass (cheap £1 photo frames).

 

1017099256_sashwindows.JPG.60908da6e87dc8456d60521744e70775.JPG

 

Once all of the five sets I need are made, I trap them under another sheet of glass and weigh them down for the night, just to ensure they don't warp.

 

567604681_sashwindowsinglass.JPG.c09949bb6d8db059a888b9532367e801.JPG

 

Andy

 

 

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I have had a couple of questions about the silhouette cutter.  

 

If I work through the design and construction of a PW wagon it might help.

 

The Birmingham and Midland had an unspecified number of wagons that would be used for internal reasons, moving coke, ash and Permenant way equipement and matarials. The would be hauled by the locomotives by a drawbar.  There is a photo of one with a B&M Greens locomotive and PW crew  (the only photo I know of)   in J S Webbs book Black Country Tramways volume 1.  (page 103).  I have sized the wagon from the photograph.  My guess is that they would have been from Olbury and Carraige works becasue tat is where the trailers came from and there were some common intrest in both businesses in the board of directors.

 

11 foot overall length, no buffers (drawbar) 3 plank (top plank a little deeper than the other two), with hinged sides. 4 Wheel  with a 5 foot wheel base.  

 

I am going to make the sides from 20mm plasticard, scored for the three planks, Made in two parts per side a front and a back laminated together to make a side with a scale thickness of 1.5".  That sounds correct on a small wagon.

 

image.png.d5d15c10735539a5e75b596985b963eb.png

So, I have made the three planks separately, and over length, you insert a box and the expand / shrink to the size you want or you can input the dims.

Now because it is 7mm I am not sure the score line between the planks will stand out enough. So I am hoping that the cutter will pass additional times between the planks so as to make the score lie more obvious, otherwise you just need lines and not boxes. You can tell the cutter to do multiple passes and I will do that but having two boxes side by side should mean two score lines side by side within a fraction of a MM.  If it doesn't work I can use the scrawker to open them out a bit.

 

Merged together with two new score (for snapping)  lines exactly 77mm apart (I made and sized a box and then erased the bits I didn't need.  You can see the broader line where planks (the two boxes) meet.  Blowing the image up, the boxes are about 0.08mm apart so I hope that all merges into one deeper cut.

 

image.png.f4fbe7c5dec138388d0f2e025755b5a2.png

I need two halves a inner and and outer for each side so I 'Group' the boxes and lines together and copy and past until I have four.

 

image.png.71e8dcef2682424871c6ba254a602705.png

I am not doing the ends just yet but they will be the same planks reduced in length.  I need to assemble the underframe (4mm wagon wheels and some brass w irons to see the exact width of the wagon.

 

I will post some pics today tomorrow to show how the cut came out

 

By the way whilst I was doing this I thought how easy it would be to produce 10 thou planking inlays for those 'naughty' Slaters wagons (even as a retro fit ) that don't have internal detail.

 

Andy

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On 05/01/2021 at 19:40, wagonbasher said:

I said earlier that I jump around...

 

Need some windows for the back to back building featured earlier.  I did have some laser cut card windows that I thought would fit the bill.  I found the surface texture would lift when I applied paint.  I have read about ways of combatting that but no need.

 

Sunday AM I designed some new sash windows on the software that came with the cameo cutter and this morning first thing I ran a sheet of 10 thou plasticard through the cutter.

 

Now 10 thou is about as thick as you can cut.  for very easy geometric shapes you could score 20 thou but if they are that easy who needs a cutter.

 

Even at 10 thou I didnt cut through, scoring enough for the parts to break out without too much effort.

 

To each sash window there is 5 parts.  2 laminatins of the bottom fixed pair of windows, two laminations of the upper sash and an outside frame.

 

1606459263_windowparts.JPG.4d9f936cc2b701239635c594a3a1f9fb.JPG

 

As they are only 10 thou they need to be laminated up using a slow evaporating solvent, limonene.

I do this against a square edge, you at times would need two square edges.  Using copy paste options in the software you can be sure they are all the same size so that they line up.  You will see that I am doing this on glass (cheap £1 photo frames).

 

1017099256_sashwindows.JPG.60908da6e87dc8456d60521744e70775.JPG

 

Once all of the five sets I need are made, I trap them under another sheet of glass and weigh them down for the night, just to ensure they don't warp.

 

567604681_sashwindowsinglass.JPG.c09949bb6d8db059a888b9532367e801.JPG

 

Andy

 

 

 

I hope that's not your lager Banks

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1 minute ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

I hope that's not your lager Banks

 

I coulnt think what ese to do with it.  Laminated some more this morning, they are under a Hobgoblin Gold and a Brakespear gold at the moment.

 

Andy

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4 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

I do like what you've done cutting the sash windows. The way you've done them makes fitting glazing easy.

 

Have you thought how to amend the design to have them partly open?

 

That should be easy enough, just move the bottom window bar with its triangluar bits down along with the top of the window and then add a full width box above.  I like that, I will do some of those!   Spot the covid house with the windows open in January.

 

Andy

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6 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

I'm very interested in how you're doing these windows, I happen to know someone who needs around 80 in various sizes and designs...

 

Just shout up mate.  I can do various designs and sizes or did you have specific sizes bin mind!!

Andy

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7 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

I have had a couple of questions about the silhouette cutter.  

 

If I work through the design and construction of a PW wagon it might help.

 

The Birmingham and Midland had an unspecified number of wagons that would be used for internal reasons, moving coke, ash and Permenant way equipement and matarials. The would be hauled by the locomotives by a drawbar.  There is a photo of one with a B&M Greens locomotive and PW crew  (the only photo I know of)   in J S Webbs book Black Country Tramways volume 1.  (page 103).  I have sized the wagon from the photograph.  My guess is that they would have been from Olbury and Carraige works becasue tat is where the trailers came from and there were some common intrest in both businesses in the board of directors.

 

11 foot overall length, no buffers (drawbar) 3 plank (top plank a little deeper than the other two), with hinged sides. 4 Wheel  with a 5 foot wheel base.  

 

I am going to make the sides from 20mm plasticard, scored for the three planks, Made in two parts per side a front and a back laminated together to make a side with a scale thickness of 1.5".  That sounds correct on a small wagon.

 

image.png.d5d15c10735539a5e75b596985b963eb.png

So, I have made the three planks separately, and over length, you insert a box and the expand / shrink to the size you want or you can input the dims.

Now because it is 7mm I am not sure the score line between the planks will stand out enough. So I am hoping that the cutter will pass additional times between the planks so as to make the score lie more obvious, otherwise you just need lines and not boxes. You can tell the cutter to do multiple passes and I will do that but having two boxes side by side should mean two score lines side by side within a fraction of a MM.  If it doesn't work I can use the scrawker to open them out a bit.

 

Merged together with two new score (for snapping)  lines exactly 77mm apart (I made and sized a box and then erased the bits I didn't need.  You can see the broader line where planks (the two boxes) meet.  Blowing the image up, the boxes are about 0.08mm apart so I hope that all merges into one deeper cut.

 

image.png.f4fbe7c5dec138388d0f2e025755b5a2.png

I need two halves a inner and and outer for each side so I 'Group' the boxes and lines together and copy and past until I have four.

 

image.png.71e8dcef2682424871c6ba254a602705.png

I am not doing the ends just yet but they will be the same planks reduced in length.  I need to assemble the underframe (4mm wagon wheels and some brass w irons to see the exact width of the wagon.

 

I will post some pics today tomorrow to show how the cut came out

 

By the way whilst I was doing this I thought how easy it would be to produce 10 thou planking inlays for those 'naughty' Slaters wagons (even as a retro fit ) that don't have internal detail.

 

Andy

 

Some pictures as promised.

 

I knew I was gambolling with the double cut to make the join in the planks and its a fail.  When a blade cuts rigid material (Computer controlled or otherwise) the blade makes a groove by pushing the material it has displaced to either side of the groove.  This looks like it worked:

 

1234523977_pwwagonsides.JPG.ce3233bafefca5832fbdaf4a2889607a.JPG

 

But if I rub the surface the displaced material goes back into the groove.

 

So using the score lines as a guide I opened up the plank gap with a scrawker.  This take out a piece of plastic coiling up the surplus as they make the groove:

 

188981119_pwwagonsides2.JPG.b3b2f642853346b8c47b716618864c9a.JPG

 

So then it was just cutting off the waste edge and snapping the score lines to the right size:7

 

441963450_pwwagonsides3.JPG.da523e1b42560245b2c7eb9b1a7d8de1.JPG

 

Ther are four of them, honest.

 

Andy

 

 

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23 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

 

That should be easy enough, just move the bottom window bar with its triangluar bits down along with the top of the window and then add a full width box above.  I like that, I will do some of those!   Spot the covid house with the windows open in January.

 

Andy

 

After some research I now realise that in many instances both the top sash and the bottom sash can open, so I have added some extra designs to my sheet of windows, one with the bottom sash open and the other with the top sash open.  These are the cut parts for a window the open options are the two on the right, I still need 2 laminations of each. but these repeat on a sheet of A4 10 thou plasticard

 

image.png.26e91c53747a57e2cdec277642c05eba.png

 

Andy

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On 10/01/2021 at 08:58, wagonbasher said:

 

After some research I now realise that in many instances both the top sash and the bottom sash can open, so I have added some extra designs to my sheet of windows, one with the bottom sash open and the other with the top sash open.  These are the cut parts for a window the open options are the two on the right, I still need 2 laminations of each. but these repeat on a sheet of A4 10 thou plasticard

 

image.png.26e91c53747a57e2cdec277642c05eba.png

 

Andy

 

 

I cut a whole sheet out last night, enough componants to make 6 windows but I have found a problem with the open window options.  There is no where for the glazing on the upper sash, once partly open the glazing bars touch.  Tonight I will add an additional lamination to the upper sash window layers.  It will replicate the upper sash componant but have one square cut out a bit bigger then the two panes of glass so there is somewhere for the glazing to go.  Not sure it will look lik with an extra layer.

 

we will see

 

Andy

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31EACFF4-32B7-4393-863A-DDAA447243E6.jpeg.aef2d40090939c50a90358bcd4c91835.jpegAway for a few days, left the kids (well they are not kids anymore) to trash the house.  Can’t waste quality time away from work.  Bought a little kit with me to cut and tidy up sleepers for the tramway.

 

l have been doing quite a bit recently, will post some pics when I’m back home.

 

Andy

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