The Larass branch of the MGWR - Irish 2mm finescale 10.5mm gauge

[Argos]

I know I should really be maintaining my focus on Glencruitten and the C&O but I would also like to do something for the Diamond Jubilee Layout Competition.

I've a track record of entering competitions and not finishing by the deadline so don't expect anything different this time!  

 

My Love of the Callander and Oban stemmed from a dusty copy of John Thomas's history of the line found in the school library in my pre-teen years.

 

The railway section of the library was hardly extensive.

From memory it contained an impenetrable text on Locomotive design by OVS Bulleid, an equally dull book on Locomotive performance by OS Nock, 3 bound annual volumes of the Railway Magazine 1962-65 all getting excited about a brave new diesel and electric modernised future for British Railways that was not to be, the aforementioned book on the Callander and Oban Railway and finally a copy of the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway by Neil Sprinks.

 

The later book was full of weird 0-6-4 tanks engines running on an unusual 5' 3" gauge (to my pre-teen eyes) across and rural land I knew nothing about, none the less it sowed a seed.....

 

 forty years of dusty memory was recently brought back to life by seeing David Hamilton's superb Arigina Town at a couple of exhibitions:-

 

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/2497-arigna-town-this-weeks-scenery/?tab=comments#comment-37969

 

An SLNCR might of been modelled with authentic rolling stock.

 

This, combined with a recent trip to Dublin, had me pondering the Irish rail network and some googling on the Sligo Leitrim.

A couple of great photo sites were found:-

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/sets/72157626762714490/detail/

 

On returning to the UK Mr Spinks's book was duly ordered (the 1970 edition as contained in the school library) along with Michael Hamilton's evocative memoir of the line.

All adding to the inspiration.

 

One station that caught my attention was Dromahair, an un-exciting little station sited between the railway's headquarters at Manorhamilton and Sligo serving a small village sited a mile or so from the station.

 

 

 

It occurred to me that with careful selection of the scene I could use the Signal box and good shed at one end and the station building at the other to form a view blocker to hide the fiddle yard exits.

 

 

To add interest I would bring the two signal posts into the scene.

 

A quick sketch up in templot shows the possibilities.

Fortunately 10.5mm 2mm finescale is a standard drop down option!

 

 

I think this could be quite an entertaining diversion and not too complex.

One turnout, 5 feet of track and three buildings shouldn't take that long.

The buildings are still in existence (well the signal box base is) and well photographed.

 

The only difficulty is the rolling stock which require scratch building, I'd need at least an engine and handful of wagons to shunt but should be do-able.

 

After all those Beyer Peacock 0-6-4 tanks are hard to resist.

 

 

 

I've not seen a 10.5mm gauge layout, has it been done and if so is there any hints and advice?

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Argos

[martin_wynne]

19 hours ago, Argos said:

A quick sketch up in Templot shows the possibilities.

Fortunately 10.5mm 2mm finescale is a standard drop down option!

 

Hi,

 

I suggest changing to 9ft sleepers for Irish 5ft-3in gauge. That's at real > timbering > menu items.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Argos]

Thanks Martin,

 

I'll do this for the final templates.

 

The plain rail on the main has this done the rail in the yard is still on 8'6" timbers.

 

I was unsure what would be appropriate for the SLNCR. 

Most photos show rail construction more akin to a US shortline!

[DavidLong]

An excellent idea if I may say so and also on the choice of gauge. I've been to a number of shows in Ireland and they are sea of Peco in either 4mm or N. So depressing!

I've toyed with some Irish work myself but haven't spent much time on it recently but a couple of examples are here:

 

 

 

 

The loco is the beginnings of a MGWR J26 0-6-0, the open is from the Cork,Bandon & South Coast Railway, the van is a post-war (sorry, post-Emergency!) CIE vehicle and the tank is Peco. On the loco the frames are a little wider apart, 7.5mm I think and I just moved the back-to-back out to 9.6mm. This may not be absolutely correct for pointwork but I haven't built any to try it!*

The difficulty with the rolling stock is that you really need some 13mm axles. This used to be the Association standard and both axleguards and some basic chassis' were produced to use these axles but are, sadly, no longer available. It may be obvious that with a 1mm increase on the b-to-b that the pinpoints would disappear with 12.25mm axles! It would be possible to cut the 2-312 RCH W-irons down the middle and rejoin them further apart and this may also be possible with some etched underframes. For axles you could use the 13.7mm version from Shop 2, file down one end and then restore the pinpoint at 13mm.

For the track I would suggest using pcb sleepers and soldering the rail directly to them to give the best impression of the lightweight permanent way. The rail to use is a matter of choice, 40thou strip, bullhead or FB. Ideally you could try the 30thou strip but it's a pig to use and would require a lot of persistence and bad language to complete the layout.

If you really get bitten then I would suggest a modest subscription to New Irish Lines:

https://newirishlines.org/

Alan O'Rourke is very helpful and may be able to point you in the direction of useful information.

I hope that you succeed as Irish railways are the great unexplored part of railway modelling and deserve a wider exposure. With the correct gauge, of course

 

David

 

* The correct standards for 2FS are here: http://www.2mm.org.uk/standards/basicstd.htm

[Argos]

Thanks David,

 

My current builds for UK (none North Irish....the SLNCR was partially a UK line as it ran from Sligo to Einniskillen) I used 7mm frame spacers so was going to try 8mm for the Irish loco stock.

 

For rolling stock I was intending to use plastic bodies with the association W-irons cut and reset wider, that's about as far as my thinking had got. 

Presumably these could be set for the 13.7mm axles available from the association so as to avoid the need for copious amounts of filing?

 

The other option would to turn the axles myself, but again this adds to the faff factor in building anything, I'd rather use a shop item if suitable (a side benefit is it also supports the Association).

 

I really want to recreate the lightweight rail of the SLNCR so I guess I need to brace myself to battle with the code 30 rail.

I'm intending to get some from the Association shop at the Tutbury supermeet in June (I'll be there with my Glencruitten layout).
 

[Nigelcliffe]

I'm not at home at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that I have a box containing many thousands of 1mm diameter 13mm long axles for wheel assembly (alongside boxes of all the other sizes for wheel production).  So, assuming my memory of the stock isn't faulty, subject to sensible (small-ish) minimum order sizes, any Association wagon/coach wheel can be supplied on 13mm.  Or, bags of axles are simple to supply.   Discuss orders with Tony, the sales officer; who in turn then passes them to me. 

 

Being very pedantic on the standards and dimensions, a 13mm axle will be a tad short for a 10.5mm track gauge.  If you look at the standards diagrams for underframes, you'll see the pinpoint on a 12.25 is only just a tiny clearance or the wheel moulding would catch the bearing on 9.42 gauge and 8.5mm back-to-back.   Assembling wheels on 13mm axles to a 9.6mm back-to-back may be beyond the limit of the assembly tools - the tools used for wheel assembly are a very near miss on inappropriate contact for the 12.25mm axle for standard gauge (when assembling, the tools only touch the rim and the sides of the pin-point, no contact with the moulding).  If wheels are manually set to 9.6mm back-to-back, then they might need the front faces of the top-hat bearings to be thinned a tiny bit to get running clearance from the wheel moulding. 

 

A long time ago, the Association used a 13mm long, 1.5mm diameter axle for wagon wheels.  That axle isn't compatible with the current wheel centres.  And the current designs of underframe etches are all around the 12.25mm length axle, so anything for Irish gauge will need either custom-etches, or a cut-shut job on standard components to gain the extra width. 

 

 

-  Nigel

 

 

[Argos]

Thanks Nigel,

 

It looks like a cut and shut job on the W irons and the 13.7mm axles would be the way to go then.

I am assuming for a 9.6mm back-to-back a 13.35mm axle would equate to the 12.25mm standard.

Using a 13.7mm axle would give an extra 0.175mm clearance on each.

I don't think this would be overly noticeable.

 

I guess a trial is called for.

[bcnPete]

Nice project Angus - would be great to see at the 2mm weekend in Derby 2020.

 

My own submission ‘Meeth’ is struggling due to the pull of the 7mm dark side...

[Argos]

Thanks Pete,

 

Hopefully I'll have something for Derby, as I said above the layout isn't the problem it will be building the stock in the timescale.

 

I'm the opposite way around, my 7mm ambitions are becoming secondary to my 2mm modelling.

[Argos]

I thought I would some details of the buildings and station at Dromahair as I'm sure a rural station on a backwater line in Ireland will hardly be familiar to most RMweb members.

 

Dromahair is a small village, and as it seems with most country rail lines, the station is a few miles from the village, none the less it seems to have been well patronised.

Freight traffic was reasonable too with the provision of two goods sheds (one was a grain store feeding a mill situated in between the two goods sheds)

 

Although no crossing loop was provided at Dromahair trains did cross, the 6.30 freight from Sligo met with the morning railcar service from Einniskillen here.

 

The freight was backed in to goods sidings to allow the railcar to pass, no doubt requiring the yard to be cleared first.

 

The line was never that intensively worked, at it's peak only four trains in each direction operated, for the period I intend to portray (1947 to mid fifties, the line closed in '57) 

there were three trains in each direction.

 

"Edit - I've since reread the texts available. There were 4 trains in each direction supplemented by an additional railcar working each way summer.

 

Extras were frequently run normally to accommodate cattle traffic."

 

 

 

 

These were a mixture of railcar, freight and mixed workings. which adds to the variety.

 

Dromahair station building was the only two storey structure on the line and will make for an attractive model.

 

 

It is seen here with one of the early small railcars.

The station building still survives as a private house

 

As do the goods sheds although the small one I intend to model is quite dilapidated.

 

 

The signal box's stone base is also still present.

It was a standard Saxby and Farmer Structure and can be seen here :-

 

 

 

One of the last batch of Beyer-Peacock 0-6-4t Lough Erne is shunting the yard.

The train is the 7.20 PM mixed train ex-Einniskillin the carriage being no 9 a 44ft brake composite and the only one of the line's carriages to be  re-painted after the 1930s.

The boarded in clerestory should make life easier when modelling it, the 7' 6" wheelbase on the bogies less so!

 

The chicken running loose in the yard has to be modelled!

In Michael Hamilton's memoir of the line he recalls his mother (who was the crossing keeper at Dromahair, his father was a linesman) kept chickens loose roaming free from the crossing keeper's house the other side of the station.

No doubt dodging chickens whilst shunting was a regular occurrence!

 

Lough Erne was the last standard (5'3") gauge engine built for the Irish railways and is thankfully preserved.

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Argos
Additional information

[Argos]

Following a bit of help from Martin I managed to get both the track templates and the background OS map printed out from Templot.

 

Positioning the print on the board I knocked up over the weekend and placing a couple of items to represent the buildings gives an impression of the concept.

 

 

The two wooden blocks on the left are the two storey station building, so the model will be slightly higher.

The 4mm card shed is the signal box, approx the right area but again the model structure will be taller.

The corrugated shed is the goods shed, the model building will be longer, narrower and probably taller as it has a peaked roof and sits on a platform.

 

These do give  a reasonable approximation though.

I've moved the good shed over a bit to form a view blocker for the off scene exit and wanted to see if this worked. 

 

 

From a more eye level view this work for the left hand exits.

 

 

Similarly the right hand exit block using the station building also appears effective.

 

All in all I'm quite happy with the effect and looking forward to building the layout. 

[DavidLong]

There's nothing quite like an Irish rural railway in these islands.

 

 

'Argadeen' on the Timoleague & Courtmacsherry

 

David

[bcnPete]

On 07/05/2019 at 22:05, Argos said:

Following a bit of help from Martin I managed to get both the track templates and the background OS map printed out from Templot.

 

Positioning the print on the board I knocked up over the weekend and placing a couple of items to represent the buildings gives an impression of the concept.

 

 

The two wooden blocks on the left are the two storey station building, so the model will be slightly higher.

The 4mm card shed is the signal box, approx the right area but again the model structure will be taller.

The corrugated shed is the goods shed, the model building will be longer, narrower and probably taller as it has a peaked roof and sits on a platform.

 

These do give  a reasonable approximation though.

I've moved the good shed over a bit to form a view blocker for the off scene exit and wanted to see if this worked. 

 

 

From a more eye level view this work for the left hand exits.

 

 

Similarly the right hand exit block using the station building also appears effective.

 

All in all I'm quite happy with the effect and looking forward to building the layout. 

 

Do love the paper template stage - next best thing to having the layout finished...

[scottystitch]

On 01/05/2019 at 22:00, Argos said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a reason for moving the shed to the edge, rather than moving the whole aperture to the right< and therefore retaining (as close as the accuracy of the map allows) scale accuracy of the site layout?

 

This is not a criticism, I'm just curious.

 

Best

 

Scott

[Argos]

Hi Scott, 

 

Thanks for asking.

 

Layout is an entry in the 2mm Scale Association's Diamond Jubilee layout competition. The size for the visible section of the layout is specified as 600x240mm .

 

I suppose I could build it smaller but it's already a small layout. I feel every mm should be retained!

 

If I move the whole aperture to the right I would also have to move the signal box, this would still affect the  integrity of the scene when compared to the real location.

 

Also the corresponding aperture on the right would move right and further away from the station building this reducing its efficacy as a view blocker unless also moved.

 

I have already moved the area as far left as I dare from my original plan.

 

Once all this is factored into the thinking, moving the good shed seems to be the least worst option as a compromise.

 

I need to mock up the proposal with some more accurate structures before I finalise the arrangement though.

[scottystitch]

Ah yes, I see now. I didn't immediately appreciate the signal box was on the other side of the tracks.

 

Apologies. That will teach me to look properly at the plan in future!

 

Best

Scott

[Argos]

No problem Scott,

 

I am always open to challenges about  how I've approached something.

It creates pause for thought and reflection.

 

Thanks

 

Angus

[Northroader]

Good luck with this project, seeing Arigna Town, you think “I’d like a slice of that”, and I like the way you’ve managed to pick an actual station and tailor it to a micro scale setting. I’m a big fan of the Irish lines, but I’ve taken the cowards way out and kept to British standard gauge, the excuse being that I can make one layout do for all the lines I like, both sides of the water.

[Argos]

Thanks Northroader.

 

It has taken me a while to come up with anything that I am happy with for the DJLC. 

 

Everything I thought of crammed too much into the space and didn't feel or look natural.

 

Sticking to a real location has given the discipline to keep it simple.

 

Hopefully the scene will work better as a result.

[Ian Morgan]

You may have already spotted this, but a guy here on rmweb has recently produced several, unusual, Irish vehicles that he sells on Shapeways. He reckons he will rescale any of his models on request, so 1/152 would be possible:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123844-more-3d-spurn-head-railway-railcarlms-fowler-2-6-2t-locognri-railcar-b/&do=findComment&comment=3527568

 

Good luck

[Argos]

Thanks Ian,

 

I already have one of his prints waiting at home.

 

He does the SLNCR's railcar B.

 

An interesting unit.

I'll post up more later.

[Argos]

Ian's post above prompts my thinking on rolling stock.

 

in the period modelled the WTT shows 5 trains in each direction.

 

3 of these are railcar workings.

there was a 6.20am departure from either end of the line.

The departure from Einniskillen was operated by railcar B

 

 

The Sligo departure was worked by one of the smaller railcars with attached luggage trailer

 

 

The larger railcar B then shuttled back and forth performing the intermediate workings before both railcar worked back to their starting points on the final workings.

 

The freight traffic was handled by two steam locos.

 

The first left Sligo with a cattle and goods working 10 minutes after the first railcar left. The second followed mid-morning with a general freight.

 

The first loco then returned from Einniskillen with a goods working followed by the final daily working the 7.20PM mixed.

 

 

 

 

So, to accurately replicate these movements I would need the two railcars and one associated luggage trailer. Two locos, two guards vans, a carriage and about a dozen freight wagons.

 

clearly that's not going to happen in a year, especially as virtually everything will be scratch built!

 

Working on a simpler representation then one railcar, one loco, one guards van, one carriage and half a dozen or so wagons should suffice.

 

 

The 3d print noted above gives a head start with the railcar.

Some of the rolling stock (and structures) are available as card kits in 7mms from Alphagraphix.

 

These could be photo reduced down to 2mm and built on etched underframes, or used as templates for plastic or brass bodies. 

It will be a helping hand at least.

 

I've already purchased a nice set of wagon drawings from the Irish Rail Records Society.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Argos
Lost text

[Argos]

The 3D print of Railcar B has arrived.

 

It nicely captures the shape and profile of the original and thankfully the creator hasn't tried to add too much detail so the sides are clear for smoothing.

 

Not a lot needs adding in truth, the buffers, the vertical handrails on the doors, the oddest omission is the protuberance but the light above the cab (horn?)

 

 

 

The usual 3D issues are present with a rough surface and stepping on the side.

Given the lack of detail on the sides this should enable a smooth finish to be archived.

 

A good scrub with a tooth brush and a dunk in some white spirit is next on the cards whilst I figure out the best approach to building the chassis.

[nick_bastable]

as a thought would one of Tomytec  or similar chassis fit they use muffs and wheels could be turned and  re-gauged as required 

 

You can order spare axles to lose the  traction tyres

 

http://trainweb.org/tomix/chassis_dim.htm

 

Nick

[Argos]

Thanks Nick,

 

That's a really useful link now suitably bookmarked.

 

The drawing for Railcar B is a bit contradictory. It gives the distance between bogie centres as 39' and the axle spacing as 8', however the drawings scales with an axle spacing of 8'6".

 

If we work with the given dimensions then a Farish 101 or 108 DMU chassis is close as these had 40' bogie centres and 8' axle centres.

The bogie centres would be 2mm out but I think this could be a compromise worth making if it were not for other factors.

 

I have looked at the Tomytec chassis, but these are odd in that they have very short axle centres on the bogies so don't really match UK (and Irish) prototypes.

The nearest would be TM-13 chassis which is 44' between bogies centres with 8' centres so would be 6mm too long, I think this would be too much of a compromise.

 

 

There are a couple of other oddities to consider with Railcar B.

The trailing bogie was un-powered and appears to be a standard coach bogie, but with 29" wheels. 

The smallness of these wheels can be seen in the photos and needs to be captured in any vaguely representational model. 

The 5.25mm dia wheels from Shop2 should suffice.

 

The powered bogie has much more standard 39" wheels, but these where connected by a coupling rod .

 

 

A further complication is that the powered bogie sits beneath the articulated section making it impossible to hide a standard model motor bogie.

 

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that a small 6mm motor mounted vertically acting on the rear axle of the power bogie is the way to go.

This can best hidden in the parcels compartment of the Railcar.

I can use some of the Association's 7.5mm driving wheels and cover over or fill the gaps in the spokes.

This will, of course, require scratch building.

The trailing bogie can be represented by an association coach etch (the Fox bogie looks the closest) with the smaller wheels already noted (assuming nothing catches due to the lower ride height).

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Argos
typo