So, I want to build a layout.

[Guest WM183]

Hi hi all.

So I have recently decided to switch my modeling focus from American railroading to British, the GWR in particular. I would like to model a Welsh valley branchline in the years or even months before nationalisation. However, I am uncertain whether to do it in 4mm or N. I think I'd like 4mm (EM or P4) more, as I particularly enjoy shunting and detailing scenes, but haven't written N gauge off yet completely. I know there is a very nice 56xx model coming out in N soon, and there are kits available for the 42xx. The space I have available is an L shaped section in a spare room, 12 feet by 4 feet, and I can come out from the wall 18-24 inches, so no continuous running in either scale; it will be end to end. The 4 foot section of the L seems like a great place for a fiddle yard and / or traverser, but I worry that going EM will require curves so large in radius that I cannot do much there.  Is this enough room to do a terminus, with also perhaps a coal loader or tipple (not sure what they're called in Britain, my apologies)? And does the EM association have all the wheels and conversion bits like the 2mm one does? Or would I be better served by working in 2mm/N gauge? I've only got 1 oo gauge loco and 1 n gauge loco at the moment, and 3 oo gauge wagons and 1 2mm association wagon, so i do not have anything really invested yet. I want to be sure what I am doing this time and not just excitedly "buy stuff" as I did in American prototype a few years back. All things being equal, I'd likely choose 00, but just am unsure?

Thanks much!

Amanda

[Stoker]

Hi Amanda,

Great choice with the pre-nationalisation GWR terminus, you're basically going with hands down the most popular layout theme since... well... since nationalisation actually! So you'll be well catered for. There's LOTS of books, kits, models, etc. all themed around GWR, and specifically terminus layouts. GWR made most stations to a standard design, so a lot of the buildings are available in kits. I'm sure others will be able to recommend some good books to read on the subject.

Regarding coal, the terminology in Britain is a coaling stage - GWR did have some larger ones and scalescenes make a kit, although they tended to use smaller stages like this one at their small rural terminus stations. There was no shortage of coal in Wales, as there were a lot of coal mines there, particularly for a type known as steam coal which is what the locomotives used.

In terms of choice between 4mm and N, in my opinion the only good reason to choose N scale is if you want to fit a large scene into a small space. It's great for southern region EMUs that can have as many as 16 pickup axles per set. Apart from that, I don't think N scale is worth all the performance issues, and it isn't well suited to running small panniers and prairies. I found shunting in N to be a chore with all the issues the couplers gave. It's also a great time to be getting into 4mm scale, as Peco just recently announced a new EM gauge track product line, which as far as I know is actually the first time anything like that has been offered. If you'd like to go with 00, Peco have also just released their very nice bullhead product which you'll be pleased to know has it's turnout sleeper arrangement based on GWR standards.

Personally, I think with 12 feet you have plenty of room to model a GWR terminus in 4mm scale AND have a fiddle yard without having to resort to an L shape.

[Kris]

If you are looking for a layout where you want to be shunting I would recommend a 4mm scale (whilst shunting can be successful in n gauge it is a more challenging proposition.) If you want a trains in a landscape / watching trains go past layout I would recommend n gauge. 

[The Johnster]

12 feet linear in 4mm means something based on one of the smaller termini, the problem in South Wales being that very few passenger termini were where the branch ended; it either made an end on connection to another route or continued another half mile or so up the valley to a coal mine.  Have a look at Abergwynfi; my own layout, Cwmdimbath, is loosely based on this with a couple of extra sidings and in it's original form was 16 feet linear including fiddle yard, though has been extended around the walls of it's room since.

 

If your priority is operation, by which I mean shunting, I would go for 4mm as Brit outline 2mm, improved over the years though it has, cannot match the slow smooth running of 4mm RTR.  A very large number of the locos you will need are available RTR in 4mm and only some of the earlier pre-grouping types will have to be kit built.  You will be able to justify several different liveries to further ring the changes for the 1947 period as well; some locos could easily still retain pre-1942 shirtbutton roundel livery, some could be in 1942-5 austerity black, and some in the post 1945 G W R initials unlined green.

 

Likewise, freight stock is well covered in 4mm, with the lack of a GW open of any real provenance being the only drawback.  Passenger stock is not so good, but there are acceptable 'near misses' in the form of the Hornby Collett 57' suburbans, actually London and Birmingham area prototypes but very similar coaches were built for South Wales.  The Silurian era ex Airfix B set and diagram A23/30 auto trailers are suitable, but showing their age.  2mm cannot offer anything beyond versions of these last two that is even close to suitable.

 

My approach to buying locos is to restrict myself to those allocated to Tondu (just north of Bridgend) shed, which provided the power for the Abergwynfi branch; the timetable requires 10 of them; a 42xx, 2x 56xx, a 4500, 4575, 3x 57xx/8750 panniers, a 94xx which is too modern for you, and a 2721.  I find this idea of choosing a shed and checking the allocation on the RailUK website (1948 allocations are given and will be very useful to you) imposes discipline and avoids impulse buys of unsuitable locos.

 

Coal traffic should dominate, as it did in the area, but not to the total exclusion of all else.  Within the coalfield, the thing you wouldn't have seen would be the coal siding in the goods yard common everywhere else, as coal was obtained from 'land sale' at the pit itself.  Your pit, even if it's modelled in an imagined form 'offstage' like mine, needs occasional 5 plankers full of pit props as well as the mineral wagons.

 

I can't off hand think of anyone else modelling this exact period in South Wales, Amanda, though there must be a few.  My period is 1948-58, when the stock didn't change much but the liveries did!  Another change was that the NCB, the nationalised coal industry which came into being in 1947, embarked on a program of providing pit head baths for the men, which reduced the need for dedicated 'dirty' stock for the workmen's trains, but took over a decade to implement.  I use Hornby 'shortie' clerestories for these workings; the last real ones survived in the area until the late 50s.  Ratio kit 4 wheelers lasted until 1953.

[Guest WM183]

Thank you guys so much! The information is a ton of help, and I appreciate everyone taking so much time to give me these thorough replies. I think I can fit a pretty fair layout into our space, and I also think with my less than perfect eyesight, and middle age rearing its head, I shall stick with 4mm. I love the 56xx as well as the varied Prairies and panniers, and very good Bachmann models are available for them, and I also would like to have a 42xx as well, though I've heard mixed things regarding Hornby. I will try to find a listing for a shed in the Llantrisant area, though I may very well just "protolance" a branch / terminus to fit our space. A station with the usual goods shed and perhaps cattle (or sheep!) dock, along with a mine to switch - err, shunt - will provide for plenty of minute operation, as well as some passenger service. 

In my era, the coal wagons would still largely be PO ones, I am guessing, and the bulk of those in somewhat dire shape following 6 years of war. Parkside make an 0-21 (I think) kit, and I have a couple of the cooper craft 04s. I am also not at all above scratchbuilding some; indeed, I love model making as much, if not more, than model operating! 

I currently have one Bachmann 56xx with the unlined "GWR" livery, and I plan to get a set of wheels and axles from Alan Gibson to convert it to EM (typo, said P4 at first - P4 might be too touchy for me!) I've worked on a load of US - themed brass engines, so I'm not terribly scared of pressing gears and quartering wheels. I know some people talk of using an upgraded chassis for the 56xx, the one made by High Level; is this to add extra compensation for P4, or what? I have no complaints over how the model runs with the Bachmann mechanism, though the lack of proper brass or bronze axle bearings is a bit cheap of them. 

I will send off an order to Alan Gibson for the wheels for the 56xx, and see what I can make of it! 

Edited May 5, 2019 by WM183

[The Johnster]

Llantrisant area is a good choice, with a good variety of workings including branch autos with 14xx, and limestone (from Creigiau), iron ore (from Llanharry), and coke (from Beddau) workings to East Moors steelworks in Cardiff.  It was home to a wonderful variety of early types on auto trailer, used on the Penygraig (about as valleys as it got) and Cowbridge (about as rural and bucolic as it got) branches.  1421 and 1471 were long term residents and used on these jobs, but you may need a Metro or 517 on it's last legs for 1947!

 

Don't be put off by poor reviews of the Hornby 42xx; I have one and it's lovely, plods just like a real 42xx.  Some early production runs of these had issues but a chassis re-vamp solved them, so a current model will run very well indeed and pull your house down.  Be careful if you're buying second hand, though.  

 

Coal in 1947 would indeed by mostly in scruffy XPO 7 plankers, with one or two steel Ministry of Transport owned 16tonners; Baccy do one of these.  The 7 plankers can come from Baccy or Oxford; avoid Hornby and Dapol as they have the wrong wheelbase, the result of using generic 10'wb chassis.  The Daps have moulded handbrake levers anyway and you're clearly a better modeller than that!  Oxfords have posable handbrake levers!

[cypherman]

Hi all,

There is a way that you could run a GWR themed railway and use other companies engines and stock without a problem. Build a modern preserved railway line such as the West Somerset preserved line that ends with the terminus in Minehead. It in summer runs a full passenger service and it's own freight and maintenance trains. Or the Dartmouth and Torbay railway.

https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/

https://www.dartmouthrailriver.co.uk/

Edited May 4, 2019 by cypherman

[Guest WM183]

Thanks folks! I had wondered if 14xx and autocoaches would be used on those lines, as the book I ordered on the Llantrisant Valley hasnt arrived yet, so I wasn't too certain. I think I do want to have my layout in period, 1946-47 or so, but I have also debated if LMS engines might ever make an appearance. In particular, did the railways receive their loco coal directly from the mines, as many (most) in America did? Would a GWR (Or SR, or LMS) string of loco coal wagons ever be dropped at a mine, filled, and then picked up at the next mine turn (or run, or whatever you'd call a loco dispatched to a mine to switch it in British rail terminology)? The railways were, after all, the largest consumers of steam coal, if it's at all like it was in the US? Some American railway companies (Chesapeake & Ohio and New York Central come to mind) even owned captive mines, to produce coal for their use. Also, regarding PO wagons - by this period they were all pooled, correct? So a wagon from a coal dealer near London might be as likely to turn up on a Welsh branch line as anywhere else? I was planning to build most of my PO wagons from the Cambrian kits, but after seeing the aforementioned Oxford Rail ones, I do not think there's a need; those are wonderful looking.

[The Johnster]

14xx were relatively unusual in South Wales, where the gradients and traffic were a bit much for them, but Llantrisant had them.  64xx were more common for auto work in the area.  The GW sourced it's loco coal locally, from Aberdare, and designed locos with fireboxes specifically to burn it at the maximum efficiency.  The coal was unsuitable for use in the big coaling towers used at other railways' loco sheds, as it broke into small pieces when you dropped it from that height into tenders or bunkers.

 

The LMS was active in South Wales, running the 'Heads of the Valleys' line between Abergavenny and Merthyr, and in the Tredegar valley.  It also had a presence in the Swansea valley and of course Swansea Victoria station was the terminus of it's Central Wales line from Shrewsbury.  By your period, general merchandise wagons had been effectively pooled as a result of RCH and wartime arrangements, and you are entirely justified in using LMS, Southern, and LNER general merchandise opens and vans alongside your GW ones.  Brake vans were not yet pooled, though.  Non-pool wagons can turn up, but need to be returned to their parent railway, empty if you can't find a load for them, asap.

 

XPOs were indeed pooled in 1947, and anything turned up anywhere.  The colourful liveries would be very faded and dirty by then, though, and missing or replaced unpainted planks were not uncommon, ad hoc yard repairs to keep a loaded wagon in service.

Edited May 5, 2019 by The Johnster

[sharris]

On 04/05/2019 at 04:12, Stoker said:

as Peco just recently announced a new EM gauge track product line, which as far as I know is actually the first time anything like that has been offered. 

 

Just a point of clarification: the EM Gauge Society has announced an EM gauge track range (currently flexitrack and left and right B6 points) that it has commissioned Peco to manufacture. The track will only be available from the EM Gauge Society, not from your usual Peco suppliers (legal and tax implications mean it can't be sold more widely). If things are running to schedule I believe it will start to become available from the Expo EM show later this month.