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Lisburn North - An 00 gauge layout


Lambeg Man
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Love the blue & cream AEC car! I remember that No. 111 remained like that long after the others were repainted in NIR maroon & light grey.....

 

Among my dad's photos is a colour slice of a 3-car AEC in Lisburn. One car each is in UTA green, UTA blue and cream, and NIR maroon and grey.

 

Must fish it out some day.....

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I think No. 111 was 'plundered' for spares to keep some of the others going. Hence the reason it is shown sitting at the back of the water tower in Parting Shot. Jim Edgar may be able to shed more light. I recall a 16.30 Belfast-Lisburn local "huddle" in the concourse of GVS (St. Malachys and Inst boys - yeh we did speak back in the day) when Jim highlighted the problems with the lack of AEC 'spares'.

 

The other issue I am studying at this moment in time is not only which Railcars, but also the trailer cars, got the 'wide' band livery, and those which (like No. 111) got the narrower mid-height 'suburban' livery.

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I'm unaware of any coherent documentation on this, Lambegman. However, there were so few that photos are probably the best chance.

 

The blue and cream existed such a short time that it's reasonable to assume that none got the wide AND narrow band versions, through repaints. So if you see 111, for example, or 12x, in one version, then that's the one it had throughout this short period.

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Yes John, I agree entirely with your comment. Richard Whitford's photo in the Journal shows the only AEC set I've seen where ALL three cars are in the blue/cream livery, yet the leading car and the driving trailer intermediate are in 'narrow band' livery, the trailing car (No. 118) is in the 'wide band' version.

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  • 1 month later...

Great stuff, Steve. You're certainly progressing quickly.

 

I'm still at the "cover the board with track" stage - it's time I laid the sidings at Portadown Goods so that I could take my goods wagons out of boxes!

 

I agree that Mr Lima's railcars are very fine. I can never thank you enough for putting me in touch, even if you denounced this "steam man" to his mates!

 

My BUT has been digitised and roars round rather well, despite being deposited on the loft floor in a moment of carelessness.

 

You know where to come to for GNR goods stock - I haven't sold my two hundredth GN brake van yet!

 

Leslie

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  • 1 month later...
  • 7 months later...

It has been a while since I posted on this site, so I thought an update may be of some interest.

 

The actual layout has had no further work done on it since about September last year. The rear baseboards with the Hidden Sidings are causing problems due to my lack of carpentry skills. In September last year I was on holiday in North Yorkshire and called in at the premises of 'White Rose Modelworks' in Bedale. They advertise in the Railway Modeller. I was treated to a half hour 'lesson' in how baseboards should be made by the proprietor. I have decided to buy new baseboards from them, but to keep the cost down, I would order and then collect them on a weekend trip back up there in the caravan as soon as the good weather came back. Well that was the plan...... Yeah, as to when I can get back to Yorkshire to collect them is anyone's guess.

 

So, unable to progress the layout I have turned to the rolling stock. Nearly all the goods stock has had a repaint and await the fitting of decals when I work out just how to do that....

 

So the coaching vehicles. 25 (yes 25!) years ago I received these from Ivor Hughes who I was then in regular correspondence with.

 

image.png.3d08a8544eef46437980f5f8424c3b76.png

 

Ivor very kindly produced models of a 4-car BUT set in NIR livery and a 4-car BUT set in UTA 'green' livery. Excellent models they are and all the more as I gather Ivor had no drawings at the time and was working from what photographs were available. He has given details of the conversions and the donor carriages he used elsewhere on this web site.

 

However the passage of time has meant that they have become a tad 'tired' looking, so I decided on a refurbishment programme for all eight vehicles, plus the addition of three further BUT vehicles of my own making.

 

The first thing I did was to send the Triang/Hornby DMU power bogies for these and two other railcar sets I have away for attention. I used 'Scalespeed' (who also advertise in the Railway Modeller) and have been extremely pleased with the work done. They all run as a sweet as a nut, even without tom another bogie.

 

As built, the dummy power cars in both seats were not fitted with seats or interiors. Some time back I had a go at fitting seats (and passengers) to the two dummy power cars in the NIR liveried set, which by the way is made up to represent the NIR "Enterprise" set in use in the late 1960's. However the plastic sheet I used for  floor proved to be far too thin.

 

image.png.d0c1eb2fc9f293e7c32fecab5b81d6de.png

Above: The interior (with seats already removed) which I made for the '700' car. Note the amount of distortion.

 

image.png.0e4286686f751b07d14900b6046840fa.png

Above: The interior I made for the '900' car.

 

One of the problems when fitting a floor is the protrusion of the original coach weight in the centre of the carriage.

 

image.png.00b65b468f5d74e3b0d6385bad3521ac.png

Above: Note the gap between the floor and the vehicle chassis

 

My remedy was to cut and fit new floors with thicker plastic card/sheet.

 

image.png.4a3bb0fa5e1eb68bed3c39919b60f9f1.png

Above: The chassis of the '700' car with new floor cut from plastic sheet.

 

However this was not a total success, requiring much packing and was still not as rigid as I hoped it would be. Using even thicker plastic sheet causes the problem of raising the floor level the seats are going to rest ever higher towards to bottom of the window line. That means that all the existing seats would have to be trimmed to a much lower height. I did look at removing the carriage 'weights', but the bogie supports are about the same height, so I reckon little would be achieved by their removal. I went to the spares box and found a sheet of brass I bought years ago (can't remember what for). While being quite thin, being metal it is much more rigid than plastic sheet. So all four dummy power cars now have new floors!

 

image.png.d2a962b843c5951214810e9a67f19946.png

Above: Brass floors in all four dummy power cars.

 

I next turned my attention to the two dummy cars from the UTA 'green' set. The NIR liveried ones came with the most brilliant 3-D engine detail.

 

image.png.66b9ecd8ab632eafdf7822425041cca4.png

Above: Close up of the underfloor engine and transmission on the '900' car.

 

However, the UTA liveried ones were built with wire mesh valances covering the engines/transmissions as per how the real things were initially built.

 

image.png.528da3b538cd25b76faad2f5470b3eb2.png

Above: Close up of the mesh valances fitted to the UTA liveried cars.

 

Although some BUT railcars carried these around for a while, by the mid-1960's there were left off altogether. Now as some of you know, I only ever pay attention and work on ONE side of a coaching vehicle, that being the side that will be seen when it is running on the layout. I pay no attention to the other side as I will never see it! So a cunning plan evolved. I would remove the valance from one side of each car.

 

image.png.3c1ae3f7710bb4020e8678c31a8b8efe.png

Above: Valances removed.

 

Now I would cut the model engine/transmission from one side of the NIR liveried cars. These would then be fitted to the UTA liveried cars and the whole will look ding dang ..... However I have just discovered that the model engine/transmissions are integral to the construction of the NIR liveried cars' chassis. So it looks like the UTA cars are going to get "Kirley" scaled down photo's to replace the valances.

 

More tomorrow on seating and interiors.   

  

 

 

 

 

  

     

Edited by Lambeg Man
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Thanks Kirley. A leaking shower cabinet took up my time today, so no 'real' work to report. However a couple of remarks with regard to my previous post.

 

I have for years used the Triang/Hornby DMU power bogie purely on account of its pulling power. I know they are ‘old’ technology and that some may ask why I persist in using them. No doubt there are better types about today, but one T/H DMU power bogie will happily shift 8 coaches around a layout. With only one power bogie my 6-coach BUT set had no problem 'storming' the gradient on the NCG’s ‘Bleach Green’ layout.

 

image.png.0d898747b0b7cfd43945e5bff1edb018.png

 

Above: My BUT set working on the 'Bleach Green' layout. More pictures already posted in the "BUT Railcars" topic on this website.

 

So one such bogie will happily power an 8-car BUT set, a 7-car '70 class' set or a 3-car MPD hauling say 20 goods wagons! They happily hide away in a Brake compartment and I always endeavor to fit a a 'power collection' bogie at the other end of the coach containing the power bogie. This allows for very smooth running over points, especially double crossovers of which there are two on my layout.

 

I was hoping to avoid having to do a repaint of the NIR set, but examination of contemporary photo's and those taken when built show the tone of the 'maroon' especially has actually faded. Still, after 25 years even I have faded a little!

 

However, examination of photo's of the real thing and the current livery on the model is that in reality the NIR 'maroon' had a slightly more 'brown' tint to it than the deep 'red' hue on the model.

 

image.png.557e0d9edde2fd6e758366c7e4137fa6.png

Above: The real thing

 

image.png.6515e9abd7fc3201c67a84f9fa03aac1.png

Above: The front of my '900' car

 

So tomorrow the NIR set is going to receive the 'modelstrip' paint remover treatment. Besides, I want to add another car in the same livery so painting all in the same light grey/maroon will retain conformity. Note also from the above photo's that the curve on the cab window corners needs reducing to make it look less like a BR 'Craven' DMU front and the current headboard needs fine tuning.   

 

 

Edited by Lambeg Man
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I was restricted to using Black Beetle motors on my BUT's at a ratio of two motorised to one non motorised unit otherwise it would not pull the train.  If the Triang/Hornby works no matter how old, then I would stick with it.

 Phoenix paint used to do NIR Maroon, MIR5 if that's any use.

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Many thanks for the helpful advice Kirley. I have one Black Beetle motor that I bought some years ago. Compared to the T/H DMU motor I found it lacked traction and power (skin and rice pudding come to mind!). It will go into my 3-car AEC set, releasing one T/H bogie for a '70 class' set.

 

As to NIR 'maroon' I suppose one has to be careful when looking at photographs as the following pictures demonstrate:

 

image.png.cdfb1e396988f09ee7a0de39c0ed819c.png

Above: Looks a deep 'maroon' here (Photo: J. Allen)

 

image.png.cbf9d3d008add68274a7b2e22a2e60ba.png

Above: Looks much more pure 'red' here. Also what was officially 'light grey' looks very 'white (Photo: A. Dale)

 

And then there is the one with the almost 'brown' tint in the previous post. I already have a 'maroon' paint that I have used previously that I thought came out alright, especially under florescent light. 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you for that Colin. Was the eventual 'NIR' maroon/grey livery exactly the same as the UTA's 'Northern Counties' regional livery or a variation on a theme?

 

image.png.5eb7825db4083f100bb7966818fd2c62.png

Above: A 1965 Richard Whitford photo shows an MPD set in a more 'brick red' than 'maroon' for the 'NC' regional livery.  

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On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 20:36, Lambeg Man said:

Thank you for that Colin. Was the eventual 'NIR' maroon/grey livery exactly the same as the UTA's 'Northern Counties' regional livery or a variation on a theme?

 

image.png.5eb7825db4083f100bb7966818fd2c62.png

Above: A 1965 Richard Whitford photo shows an MPD set in a more 'brick red' than 'maroon' for the 'NC' regional livery.  

No - NIR used a maroon shade. The very short-lived UTA shade was slightly lighter. In the pic above, though, the printing process has made it look a bit too brownish. It was more red.

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On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 20:36, Lambeg Man said:

Thank you for that Colin. Was the eventual 'NIR' maroon/grey livery exactly the same as the UTA's 'Northern Counties' regional livery or a variation on a theme?

 

image.png.5eb7825db4083f100bb7966818fd2c62.png

Above: A 1965 Richard Whitford photo shows an MPD set in a more 'brick red' than 'maroon' for the 'NC' regional livery.  

No - NIR used a maroon shade. The very short-lived UTA shade was slightly lighter. In the pic above, though, the printing process has made it look a bit too brownish. It was more darkish red but not quite maroon.

 

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 17:52, Lambeg Man said:

Many thanks for the helpful advice Kirley. I have one Black Beetle motor that I bought some years ago. Compared to the T/H DMU motor I found it lacked traction and power (skin and rice pudding come to mind!). It will go into my 3-car AEC set, releasing one T/H bogie for a '70 class' set.

 

As to NIR 'maroon' I suppose one has to be careful when looking at photographs as the following pictures demonstrate:

 

image.png.cdfb1e396988f09ee7a0de39c0ed819c.png

Above: Looks a deep 'maroon' here (Photo: J. Allen)

 

image.png.cbf9d3d008add68274a7b2e22a2e60ba.png

Above: Looks much more pure 'red' here. Also what was officially 'light grey' looks very 'white (Photo: A. Dale)

 

And then there is the one with the almost 'brown' tint in the previous post. I already have a 'maroon' paint that I have used previously that I thought came out alright, especially under florescent light. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, exactly. As one who remembers it, you (and I) will know that those photos don't show it accurately! The darker one is marginally closer to real

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On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 20:36, Lambeg Man said:

Thank you for that Colin. Was the eventual 'NIR' maroon/grey livery exactly the same as the UTA's 'Northern Counties' regional livery or a variation on a theme?

 

image.png.5eb7825db4083f100bb7966818fd2c62.png

Above: A 1965 Richard Whitford photo shows an MPD set in a more 'brick red' than 'maroon' for the 'NC' regional livery.  

No - NIR used a maroon shade. The very short-lived UTA shade was slightly lighter. In the pic above, though, the printing process has made it look a bit too brownish. It was more darkish red but not quite maroon.

 

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 17:52, Lambeg Man said:

Many thanks for the helpful advice Kirley. I have one Black Beetle motor that I bought some years ago. Compared to the T/H DMU motor I found it lacked traction and power (skin and rice pudding come to mind!). It will go into my 3-car AEC set, releasing one T/H bogie for a '70 class' set.

 

As to NIR 'maroon' I suppose one has to be careful when looking at photographs as the following pictures demonstrate:

 

image.png.cdfb1e396988f09ee7a0de39c0ed819c.png

Above: Looks a deep 'maroon' here (Photo: J. Allen)

 

image.png.cbf9d3d008add68274a7b2e22a2e60ba.png

Above: Looks much more pure 'red' here. Also what was officially 'light grey' looks very 'white (Photo: A. Dale)

 

And then there is the one with the almost 'brown' tint in the previous post. I already have a 'maroon' paint that I have used previously that I thought came out alright, especially under florescent light. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, exactly. As one who remembers it, you (and I) will know that those photos don't show it accurately! The darker one is marginally closer to reality, but still not quite right.

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Ever started something and then wish you hadn't?

 

image.png.f2bed4c293b87eef8358f230f1c071d2.png

 

For years I have used 'Modelstrip' paint remover and always found it very effective at removing old paint with causing any damage to detail on the model. However when I put the four NIR liveried coaches through the process, 'Modelstrip' was not wholly effective as can be seen in the above photo. Too late now for a change of plan, I repeated the process with the following result.

 

image.png.b51e0eafc3562a4eaadd13a88174d102.png

 

Still not wholly effective, but details were now starting to suffer. At least the power cars were a little better.

 

image.png.caec86710652c7cb5b5a63c88d169d95.png

 

Revised interiors were tackled first. As seen below, plastic floors were made in favour of the brass ones previously mentioned as I could get plastic to stick to the brass. Repainting into NIR livery will be the next activity.

 

image.png.6971f0c5353c121e47681cd28203544e.png

 

Slight problems with the two trailer cars, the Buffet and the Brake/First. The 'kitchen' side of the Buffet car is largely fine. It represents a 'B 9' GNR built vehicle. Unfortunately Ivor appears to have spent time removing the 'ribbing' from the roof of the donor carriage, when in fact No. 551 had a ribbed' roof. If one consults the photograph in "Parting Shot" of the real thing, it will be seen that the end door on the other side was panelled over at some point, probably by the UTA. So the end door (on the right of the photograph below) was probably treated the same.

 

image.png.1c2b77701bdad2bcbd4dbbeb7450be14.png

 

A bigger problem is the other side, seen in the next picture.

 

 image.png.7804b0361b18eca7abf9ef64154fdee1.png

 

On the real thing the correct window arrangement is seen in the following photograph.

 

image.png.3ce4b8456043c2333452971d8581f1e9.png

Believed to be a Richard Whitford photograph

 

To hack or not to hack, that is the question. So the question is, do I try and amend Ivor's otherwise impeccable handiwork, or do I try and fashion a revised side from scratch? Or do I just leave as it is? Answer tomorrow..........

Edited by Lambeg Man
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Further to my previous post, may I remind readers that Ivor was working without drawings. I submit the following pictures of the interior Ivor made for the Buffet car as a testament to his modelling skills.

 

image.png.7eebf1b61490049c95b2922c7fb61bb2.png

 

image.png.80892d5b11ddba8c9b68fed044717e6c.png

 

The only problem with the Brake/First is the chassis built to accommodate the power bogie.

 

image.png.e01a50721c740ba3e311df0c7fd552e5.png

 

Over the years it has become loose and fails to house correctly in the otherwise perfect (scratch built I believe) body. I think I will endeavor to replace it with the chassis of a Hornby 57' coach. Just got to work out how to locate the power bogie....

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20 hours ago, Lambeg Man said:

 

On the real thing the correct window arrangement is seen in the following photograph.

 

image.png.3ce4b8456043c2333452971d8581f1e9.png

Believed to be a Richard Whitford photograph

 

To hack or not to hack, that is the question. So the question is, do I try and amend Ivor's otherwise impeccable handiwork, or do I try and fashion a revised side from scratch? Or do I just leave as it is? Answer tomorrow..........

 

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Thank you Kirley for your response. You present a good case. I spent all day yesterday mulling over the issue with the Buffet car not having the correct window arrangement on one side. I have examined a replica of the donor vehicle (a Bachman LMS open Third) and discovered what may have been an original problem for Ivor. The donor carriage is a scale 57’, has two doors, two half (toilet) windows and seven full sized windows.

 

The ‘B 8’ had two doors, one half window, but NINE full sized windows in a side 58’ long. The only way to accurately model this carriage is to reduce the spacing between ALL the window frames. This could be done either to a new coach body (which may be of more use for another project), or trying to adapt Ivor’s original sides. Both ideas sound very hard work. Reducing the window spacing on one side would involve doing the same to the other and then the interior tables/seats would need altering as well. I have been oblivious to the error for 25 years, I think I can manage another 25! My final decision is to paint the 'good' side in the 'Regional' blue and cream livery seen in the previous photograph and use it as a 'spare'.

 

Besides, it was in real life the ‘reserve’ car, so my limited efforts will go into producing a reasonable model of the regular ‘B 6’ car. Other catering vehicles planned are the ‘B 4’ former Restaurant Car, NIR No. 554 (for the planned ’70 class’ set) and the ‘B 10’ Buffet Car which went to CIE and after refurbishment went into their ‘Enterprise’ set in the late 1960’s. Both vehicles were built on a 60’ chassis, so Airfix LMS compo’s will make excellent donor vehicles. The other only other ‘catering’ vehicle planned is the former ‘K 23’ Buffet Car, NIR No. 556, which ran as a ‘support trailer’ to No. 554 in the ’70 class’ Enterprise set. This vehicle had the Buffet fittings removed in 1966 when it then became an ‘open second’, basically similar to a ‘K 15’. The beauty of this vehicle to model is that it retained the original ‘K 23’ side profile of having only two doors on each side as opposed to the four doors that the contemporaneous ‘K 15’ carriages had, as shown in the following drawing.

 

image.png.856fb54350d848c4bbb7093343f12211.png

Side profile of ex-GNR 'K 23' carriage

 

However in photographs of this set both No. 554 and No. 556 are noticeably wider than the UTA built ‘70 class’ power cars and trailers, so I may do them by way of overlays on donor coaches…

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  • 4 weeks later...

Brief update as the garden has taken priority over the last three or so weeks.

 

Regarding a replacement Buffet car for my NIR BUT Railcar 'Enterprise' set, the donor was a Bachman 57' LMS open 3rd.

 

image.png.bdcb1ceca48f33a7cf5f91311869719d.png

The Donor....

 

 image.png.a7e595f10d6ac111b821708ec8fd6f18.png

The CUTS and the SHUTS....

 

image.png.1a936d6b85772cf5381b982ff725380a.png

Body ready for painting, but first to another matter....

 

When I looked at the photo of NIR No. 552 in 'Parting Shot' I noticed there was was a lot of white paint inside the end corridor gangway. I then realized something I had previously missed about BUT Railcars and in particular their "continental" corridor connections. On the power cars the rubber connections met directly onto the body work. However the middle front of the power cars extends out past the end of the main body as is the case with a BR Mk. 1. This protrusion of the corridor connections ensured a tight fit when the power cars were coupled to each other.

 

However the trailers all had no such 'end protrusion', their ends being at complete right angles to the ends of their body sides. There was therefore a 'spacer' of noticeable depth fitted to the end of each trailer car to which the standard BUT rubber corridor connection was then fitted, giving the effect of a noticeably deeper/longer corridor gangway.

 

image.png.cfd8cb65e490ef08951dab13697f19a1.png

 

In consequence the 'face' of the BUT corridor connection can be seen to be out level with the coach buffers. Therefore my next step is to work out a solution for the four BUT trailers I currently have.        

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