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rue_d_etropal

Freelance OO carriage design to download

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I have been asked by a few people if it would be possible to do a 3D print design that they could print themselves. I have adapted one of my OO scale coach designs to fit a Hornby , or similar, chassis. This is a one off, and it will be interesting to see how it goes.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/G2WBW8H6N/o-76-freelance-clerestory-brake-carriage

 

As far as I can tell there is no way of making these downloads available for any way other than free, so this is for personal use only.I have deliberately chosen a clerestory coach design, as it is more interesting. It is based on the autocoach that is now preserved to run with the autocar. It has been stretched and has slightly different end windows,to make it less NER and therefore could be finished foe any railway. It could be used as a conventional brake coach, or a pushpull autocoach . It has the same level of detailing I have on my other designs, but is body only.

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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How do you download from Shapeways? Could you put it on Thingiverse?

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Simon has provided a download button on the linked Shapeways page. Opens fine in my .stl viewer.

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Can you give me a clue as to where on the page the button is - I just cannot find it!!!!!!!

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You have to sign in to a shapeways account then the download link appears on the page. Just done that and it works fine. Cheers Ian

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On 04/05/2019 at 16:34, rue_d_etropal said:

I have been asked by a few people if it would be possible to do a 3D print design that they could print themselves. I have adapted one of my OO scale coach designs to fit a Hornby , or similar, chassis. This is a one off, and it will be interesting to see how it goes.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/G2WBW8H6N/o-76-freelance-clerestory-brake-carriage

 

As far as I can tell there is no way of making these downloads available for any way other than free, so this is for personal use only.I have deliberately chosen a clerestory coach design, as it is more interesting. It is based on the autocoach that is now preserved to run with the autocar. It has been stretched and has slightly different end windows,to make it less NER and therefore could be finished foe any railway. It could be used as a conventional brake coach, or a pushpull autocoach . It has the same level of detailing I have on my other designs, but is body only.

Many thanks for all the work you have done on this, it is an interesting project. To print at home I have split the model into components, sides, ends and roof to print each flat on the bed and assemble as a kit. Used Light Wood PLA which I will stain to a teak effect. The resolution of the roof vents is problematic and in removing these I found that the model has locating holes in the roof which did not quite align with the vents. Not sure if that is a consequence of my editing though. Below is the untouched side as it finished printing. 

IMG_20190509_101229034[1].jpg

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nice to see, but I would prefer people to try printing in one piece, that is a design concept the hobby needs, as people are moving away from kits.

To be fair, I had not realised it was possible to split up stl files, another reason I will stick with Shapeways.

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10 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

nice to see, but I would prefer people to try printing in one piece, that is a design concept the hobby needs, as people are moving away from kits.

To be fair, I had not realised it was possible to split up stl files, another reason I will stick with Shapeways.

 

 

You keep saying that but you have no evidence. 

 

I visited a kit manufacturer last night who has retired some years ago and yet he gets countless enquiries a week for his products, he's resumed a part time production of part of his range which suits him, but said he could easily step back up to full time with the numbers of his kits which people ask for.

I myself produce a few etched items to replace a chassis on a RTR body (a loco from a few years ago) which has sold 10X the amount I thought it would with requests to do other versions. Those asking aren't 'old time ' modellers but newer ones looking to expand their skillset.

 

At the end of the day what you produce is only a part of a model so ergo is a 'kit',  you just don't produce the other parts leaving it to the individual which is actually harder.

 

 

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There is a small market for specialist kits and those that support them will continue until the day they are no longer around and firecely defend them. I have seem quite a number of kit manufacturers retiring over past few years, and many of those ranges have disappeared now. I won't even mention Coopercraft(sorry I just mentioned it). Luckily Peco have taken over a few ranges , most recently being the Parkside range, but often see messages on this forum about old kits no longer available.

Simple basic kit ranges, like those Dapol took over from Airfix have a future as they are cheap enough.

My evidence, just look a the way r2r has taken over so much. There are not as many new entrants to the hobby these days so any new way is worth trying. Some might have the skills and time to build a finescale fully detailed etched metal kit, but most don't, and many give up when they find it too difficult.

What I have tried to do is aim something between a kit and a r2r model. My designs are not kits,, they are 'aids to scratchbuilding'. They get people over that first hurdle, and then they can finish models off. That way they not only finish up with a working model, but one they feel they have built(even though the initial part was supplied almost complete).

 

I did this freeby as an experiment. One fact that has emerged which I did not realise was ability to split up stl files. That might be another reason why relatively few complex models are available to download, and are only offered by services such a Shapeways. It also means I won't be doing any more  models for download in the near future, until it is possible to prevent  this or an ability to make copying more difficult. I would like anyone who wants to print off this design themselves to only print it as per original, and not split it , please, otherwise I will remove the download option.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

they are 'aids to scratchbuilding'.

 

So is a sheet of styrene.

 

The only way to control the use of your files is to print your own, passing anything to a 3rd party (inc shape ways) opens the door.

 

All those I know that have ordered from Shapeways (inc myself) now rarely use it due to the high cost. 

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1 hour ago, rue_d_etropal said:

but I would prefer people to try printing in one piece

Easier said than done with some printers. I think what Jim has done is quite sensible in this case.

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One thing I did it was to show people that what Shapeways do is better than what they can do on a home printer. Odd that noone has mentioned it was in effect possible to recerse engineer a 3D print stl file, so I have learnt something, and means as I have said, I won't  be doing any more this way.

Anyone wanting to hve 3D printed models to download, my advice is to get some 3D CAD software and design your own models. I am targetting a different group of modellers, one which is falling down the gap between r2r and pure kit/scratchbuilding.

If someone does want a 3D design which they can download and also offer to others, I am happy to look a a design which could be reverse engineered for their purposes, but would have a charge an appropriate fee for the design. Being realistic.

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not sure,probably depends on which type of printing, and Shapeways offer a large range. Suggest anyone interested looks on shapeways website.

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7 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

One thing I did it was to show people that what Shapeways do is better than what they can do on a home printer.

 

The last prints that Shapeways did for me,  (which were items that had been printed before) were refunded due to the poor print quality. Before that it has been hit/miss on quality (all pre-printed and proven items)

 

If you look at Mike Trice's Anycubic Photon thread you can see that home printer quality is equal to, and possibly superior, to overpriced Shapeways.

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Home printers can not print everything. I think that when people have to start doing maintenance on their printers they will realise there is a lot of work incolved, and you can only realistically print stuff for yourself. This has nbeen discussed a lot and diffrenr peple has different opinions and attitudes. A few seem to want everyone to follow a very narrow path, but I am trying to open it up to a much larger and briader minded group.

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23 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

nice to see, but I would prefer people to try printing in one piece, that is a design concept the hobby needs, as people are moving away from kits.

To be fair, I had not realised it was possible to split up stl files, another reason I will stick with Shapeways.

I do offer my apologies if my actions have not been in the spirit you intended.

 

Home printing a file like this in one piece is very inefficient for the home user as 1) it consumes a significant amount of internal support material which is wasted and then time consuming to remove. 2) A lot of external support material would be required to cope with the overhang of the roof which would spoil the side details. 3) the print time for the whole job at a reasonable resolution would be in the order of 24 hours (using an Ultimaker 2) the flat form "kit" is about  14 but in 4 separate jobs which is more easily manageable for the home hobbyist.

 

As far as the STL files are concerned, I am surprised that it had not occurred to you that it could be imported to an appropriate CAD tool and edited just in the same way as you created it. The most useful feature of this for the hobbyist is the ability to re-scale the file to whatever scale required for their particular interest or modify to create variations.

 

I think your then wishing to stick with Shapeways could constrain the development of this part of the hobby as is places Shapeways in something of a monopoly position and there are already many discussions regarding their pricing structures. A viable alternative, which directly rewards the intellectual effort of the designer are sites like CGTrader where commercial standard 3D models can be purchased and either printed at home by the hobbyist or taken/sent to one of the growing number of local and online print houses to produce for you. This approach  in my view opens the market to a much wider usage while still rewarding the designer for their effort.

 

I do thank you for opening up this discussion.

 

 

Edited by JimFin
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I find the attitude of some in the hobby rather narrow, assuming everyone can or wants to print their own models, and then only in a very limited number of scales. One of the big selling point for 3D printing is being able to print a complete model in one piece in any scale. Some may be happy with a kit type approach but many are not. I have a lot of very happy people who buy my models via Shapeways.

Complexity is not the only issue but maximum size. I suspect many of those who make negative comments about Shapeways model in 4mm scale, where r2r and kit prices are artifcially low. Just compare those prices to 20-30 years ago. Unfortunately 4mmscale models fall into to a gap between small models which use their print space well, and bigger scales where there is internal space can be used for other designs . I offer my designs in many scales so have been able to compare the differences between different scales.

Being able to break up stl files is news to me. I knew it was possible to resize designs, as that is one option Shapeways offer, but I prefer to tweak some designs for some  scales.  I had not come across any discussion on subject of splitting stl files, suggesting to me that some might have been keeping quiet about it. It is a very good reason for notallowing downloads of stl files. My coach design does not have anything special or complex to design, but some of my other designs might be useful to someone who wanted to separate out parts such as loco chimneys.  Just becaught someone says they only going to use a download for their pwn personal use, does not mean someone else will. There(have already been stories of designs being copied after less trustworthy 3D print companies9China based?) have been used. It is why I only use Shapeways. I know where to go if I find any of my designs being copied.

I offered this download as an experiment. Someone on this forum had asked me, and so I thought it worth a try as they wanted to try it out on a new printer they had access to. Possibly best result has been finding that some are happy to reverse engineer my designs to suit their purposes, and in doing so have effectively killed off download options for me, and maybe others. It mght seem negative, but possibly has been the most useful result of this experiment.

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On 09/05/2019 at 10:59, rue_d_etropal said:

not sure,probably depends on which type of printing, and Shapeways offer a large range. Suggest anyone interested looks on shapeways website.

 

I kind of assumed that the designer would need to know how accurately his or her model for sale was going to be reproduced.  Just seeing a catalog of 3D mock-ups doesn't tell a potential customer whether they are going to get door handles or just suggestive blobs.

 

Tim

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I leave the technical issues to Shapeways. That is the way most who use Shapeways do it. Only a very small number of people, often very loudly commen that it does not suit them, but the other 99% are happy with the results. It does not take much effort for anyone to look at technical definitions on Shapeways. They are improving their service, and overall offer a far better service than other operations, for both designer and modeller. If I used some of the other companies, I would probably only have designed a handful of models in a very limited number of scales.

Edited by rue_d_etropal

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2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I leave the technical issues to Shapeways.

<snip>

. It does not take much effort for anyone to look at technical definitions on Shapeways. 

 

The question Hitchin loco asked was 

 

2 hours ago, Hitchin Junction said:

 

I kind of assumed that the designer would need to know how accurately his or her model for sale was going to be reproduced.  Just seeing a catalog of 3D mock-ups doesn't tell a potential customer whether they are going to get door handles or just suggestive blobs.

 

Tim

 

Rather than a diatribe about who does or doesn't like Shapeways you could have answered him by saying (as you have in the past) that you don't print your own designs so have no real idea.

 

Shapeways isn't a bad company but the cost has increased as the quality has got worse. 

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I fear that because of the way some in the hobby behave and treat others, the hobby might be doomed. Instead of knocking down anyone who tries to do something positive and creative, start doing something that might help the hobby and attract new people to take it up. That is what I am trying to do.

Having run a model shop, being a member of 2 or 3 proper model railway clubs and helped run exhibitions, exhibited at many exhibitions myself and had articles in the model press, I think I have pretty good amount of knowledge and experience in the hobby. I also have a far wider range of interests within the hobby, and prefer models that look right than just  fit the numbers. Personally I am not interested in the specific fine details of 3D printers, just that they can produce good models, better than most people could scratchbuild. Comparing how many dots or how thin the layers are is like comparing how fast your company car goes,  is at a sales convention.

Compared to 5 years ago when I started, the service Shapeways provide is much improved, but not perfect, in particular their database, which is why I have my own website so it is easier to find my designs.

So please stop moaning. You rally don't want to know what people outside this foru in the hobby thinkof some of what goes on. Continue being negative and this forum will put off even more people. It has already been commented that less is happening on this forum.It might not be the main reason, but it does not help.

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13 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I fear that because of the way some in the hobby behave and treat others, the hobby might be doomed. Instead of knocking down anyone who tries to do something positive and creative, start doing something that might help the hobby and attract new people to take it up.

Already doing it.

14 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

being a member of 2 or 3 proper model railway clubs and helped run exhibitions,

Also done/am doing that.

14 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

helped run exhibitions

Still doing that

15 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

exhibited at many exhibitions

Done that.

15 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I think I have pretty good amount of knowledge and experience in the hobby

You might have, but there are other opinions.

16 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Personally I am not interested in the specific fine details of 3D printers, just that they can produce good models, better than most people could scratchbuild.

That is actually quite a boastful claim, do you seriously think that a 3D print in white verstile plastic is better than a scratch build ?

22 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

So please stop moaning. You rally don't want to know what people outside this foru in the hobby thinkof some of what goes on. Continue being negative and this forum will put off even more people. It has already been commented that less is happening on this forum.It might not be the main reason, but it does not help.

Far from moaning, my concern, is that poor quality prints in the wrong material that haven't been test printed for quality, will put people off of 3D printing. That is the negative.

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Actually that is not happening in reality. One person's perception of a poor quality print is different to another's. I think most of these comments come from those who might be described as rivet counters. 3D printing is not for the few, but for the many, and I have found than many people like what I am doing.

This has side tracked my original thread, turning it into something negative and totally unhelpful.

One way to compare like for like is to test a design on two different platforms, one reason I put this FREE download here. Changing a design so it will print easier on a home printer, might be interesting, but it is not comparing like for like. If a home printer can not print one of my designs in one piece, then how ever good the actual quality of printing, it has failed the test. It is my test, my download.

It has brought out into the open that it is possible to modify stl files, and until there is something in software to stop this being done , then that will reduce number of good quality stl files that are available to download.

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I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to get across here. The fact that more than a few think that 3D printing still has a long way to go before it will match traditional ways of building things does not make them rivet counters (and knowing some of the people that put this argument forward, I would not call them rivet counters), but the fact that they have used 3D printing for items and except their limitations, make your argument even more strange.

What I find more disconcerting is that there is a plethora of designs online that are available for printing that have a lot of fundamental errors in them, that when pointed out are brushed off with a 'I'm not that worried about it'. This is far more damaging to the 3D sector as these faults may not be noticed by the buyer until the print is in his sweaty mitts, leading to disappointment and reluctance to try that designers designs again.

Its all very well drawing up lots of stuff, but never actually getting prints done for test purposes to see what the outcome will be, is somewhat reckless in my opinion....

 

Andy G

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