Flying Scotsman aaround Burton earlier today

[Ian Hargrave]

Here are two identifiable individuals. I have to ask whether action  to prosecute is ongoing.If a suitably chastening sentence will be imposed then maybe that will be a deterrent to such mindlessly selfish behaviour.Otherwise,we are faced with the inevitable ban on steam specials on our tracks.There simply is no alternative.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Do you hold a PTS card?  And by which I mean a proper Network Rail one, not just a lineside pass for a preserved railway? 

 

It sounds like the message will never get through to some...

I do, and was on or about real railways (not preserved ones) long before there were PTS cards, but I was taught to think at system level when it came to assessing safety, not blindly accept rules without question, and to appreciate that safety by wrote is not the best way of getting the message through.

 

So far, all I see are a lot of people who cannot think beyond the rule book.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, locoholic said:

When was the last railway fatality in Iceland, after all?

 

 

 

 

I dropped a box of Thomas The Tank Engine ice-lollies once.....

 

Yes. They are (or were) a thing.

 

 

Jason

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not actually in a place of danger, any more than I would have been had I been trackside (legitimately) and wearing full orange.

Do they actually pose a danger to you, any more than had they been standing at a public foot crossing or user-worked crossing?

It is also worth understanding why Britain's railways (and not tramways) were originally required to be fenced, and how that was subsequently changed by interpretation of the Health & Safety at Work Act.

 

Jim 

 

Jim, if by 'not actually in a place of danger' you are referring to the two prats in Andrew Young's photo, standing feet away from a 125mph line with their backs to approaching trains, and with what seems to be their equipment left on a bridge parapet with limited clearance signs, there is no purpose whatsoever continuing this discussion.

 

[Reorte]

I don't see how anyone could stand there and not be scared to hell.

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Here are two identifiable individuals. I have to ask whether action  to prosecute is ongoing.If a suitably chastening sentence will be imposed then maybe that will be a deterrent to such mindlessly selfish behaviour.Otherwise,we are faced with the inevitable ban on steam specials on our tracks.There simply is no alternative.

 

 

 

There is an alternative, that has been done before in BR days to sort out trespass although not admittedly for train "enthusiasts"  They would run a DMU full of BT police.  Any trespassers spotted the train would stop, the miscreants arrested and loaded up on to the train.  For ultimate punishment in this case it should be a Pacer. The train would then move on to the next lot.  Whether or not the Pacer in this case would have sufficient seating capacity however...

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

There is an alternative, that has been done before in BR days to sort out trespass although not admittedly for train "enthusiasts"  They would run a DMU full of BT police.  Any trespassers spotted the train would stop, the miscreants arrested and loaded up on to the train.  For ultimate punishment in this case it should be a Pacer. The train would then move on to the next lot.  Whether or not the Pacer in this case would have sufficient seating capacity however...

 

They're trainspotters though. They'll like that. 

 

Bus replacement service straight to court will do better. Then a community order of 200 hours cleaning up the lineside of rubbish and graffiti. Under strict supervision of course.

 

 

 

Jason

[298]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

I do, and was on or about real railways (not preserved ones) long before there were PTS cards, but I was taught to think at system level when it came to assessing safety, not blindly accept rules without question, and to appreciate that safety by wrote is not the best way of getting the message through.

 

So far, all I see are a lot of people who cannot think beyond the rule book.

 

Jim

 

Then I doubt very much that your employer would currently share your view, and may even want to undertake some retraining if you condone the actions of these Trespassers.

[Andrew Young]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Those two in the photo aren't random general public turning up. They are trainspotters/gricers/whatever you call them nowadays.

 

 

 

Jason

 

They told me they were the adjoining landowners who’d come out to get photos of Scotsman passing their land. They were a fair way from any access road, but near some farm buildings, so don’t believe they’re average spotters despite their decent cameras. But I could be wrong.

 

Andrew

[Reorte]

24 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

There is an alternative, that has been done before in BR days to sort out trespass although not admittedly for train "enthusiasts"  They would run a DMU full of BT police.  Any trespassers spotted the train would stop, the miscreants arrested and loaded up on to the train.  For ultimate punishment in this case it should be a Pacer. The train would then move on to the next lot.  Whether or not the Pacer in this case would have sufficient seating capacity however...

Ah, so that explains this https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/16968966222

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Ah, so that explains this https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/16968966222

 

That was originally done for a TV advert. Or was that a Class 37?

 

 

Jason

[Andrew Young]

6 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not actually in a place of danger, any more than I would have been had I been trackside (legitimately) and wearing full orange.

Do they actually pose a danger to you, any more than had they been standing at a public foot crossing or user-worked crossing?

It is also worth understanding why Britain's railways (and not tramways) were originally required to be fenced, and how that was subsequently changed by interpretation of the Health & Safety at Work Act.

 

Jim 

 

Whilst they are borderline 6ft from the nearest running line. If you were lineside, I’d expect you to be keeping a look out for approaching trains, especially on a 125mph railway? These weren’t and their equipment was placed so they’d been foul of the line had they gone to get something out of it. Therefore I considered them to be a danger to themselves.

 

There were numerous others who were moving about as we approached, standing foul of the line whilst not looking in the direction that trains on that line were approaching and crossing the line on foot in sight of approaching trains. These were the people we were dealing with and who we considered were a danger to themselves.

 

We’re not talking about reporting people who’d stood the wrong side of a boundary fence 40ft away from the running line.

 

They weren’t posing a danger to my train, I know what happens when you hit a human with a Voyager at 125mph (near Northallerton last year) and there’s only one winner! But they were posing a danger to themselves so we’re duty bound to report them.

 

Maybe it’s a good job that Scotsman was behind the Cardiff, there were plenty on the track who weren’t paying any attention to what was running on the up line and approaching at 125mph.

 

In nearly twenty years of driving trains, I’ve never seen so many people in so many stupid positions on or very near the lineside.

 

Andrew

[Andrew Young]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Here are two identifiable individuals. I have to ask whether action  to prosecute is ongoing.If a suitably chastening sentence will be imposed then maybe that will be a deterrent to such mindlessly selfish behaviour.Otherwise,we are faced with the inevitable ban on steam specials on our tracks.There simply is no alternative.

 

 

 

All XC driving cabs have Forward Facing CCTV cameras, they were busy downloading all the units involved when I booked off Sunday evening. 

 

Andrew

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That was originally done for a TV advert. Or was that a Class 37?

 

Found both a 37 and a 47 when I searched for a picture, went for the 47 because it rather surprised me when it turned up on the train I was catching once. Looking in to it a bit the 37 was used for an advert and the 47 for a later BTP campaign (could do with one now by the sounds of things).

Edited May 7, 2019 by Reorte

[Andrew Young]

33 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

There is an alternative, that has been done before in BR days to sort out trespass although not admittedly for train "enthusiasts"  They would run a DMU full of BT police.  Any trespassers spotted the train would stop, the miscreants arrested and loaded up on to the train.  For ultimate punishment in this case it should be a Pacer. The train would then move on to the next lot.  Whether or not the Pacer in this case would have sufficient seating capacity however...

 

The Q train concept. I did suggest to our Control Sunday night that we could’ve done with one. An empty Voyager with a load of police on board running just ahead of Scotsman would’ve paid for itself in the fines they would’ve dished out!

 

Andrew

[Andrew Young]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

Found both a 37 and a 47 when I searched for a picture, went for the 47 because it rather surprised me when it turned up on the train I was catching once. Looking in to it a bit the 37 was used for an advert and the 47 for a later BTP campaign.

 

The 37 was done for a TV advert. In the latter days of XC Loco hauled services in Virgin days we had a number of different liveried 47’s, including the Police one alongside an anti trespass campaign.

[uax6]

I had a visit from the Anglia area ops manager and a bloke from Rail mag when I was in the box about 8 years back. The subject of tresspassers and kettles came up. It was interesting hearing their views on how to manage the problem.

Funnily neither of them were overly impressed when I said the easiest way to deal with the problem would be to run trains line speed at the idiots and kill a few.... (the ops manager had to ask if I would really do this, of course not.... I'd ask for a snowplough to do it.....).

 

Joking aside I witness people risking their lives everyday here in the box, at a barrow crossing that has got red/greens and a warning sounder on it. They are so desperate to catch a train they just don't think twice about putting themselves in Darwin award territory. I'm hoping that the day someones luck runs out I don't see it, but that everyone on the platform gets covered in the bits. It may serve as a lesson to them...

 

I have every sympathy with the drivers, I don't know how they get back into the cab after dealing with these loonies....

 

Andy G

[caradoc]

14 hours ago, uax6 said:

I had a visit from the Anglia area ops manager and a bloke from Rail mag when I was in the box about 8 years back. The subject of tresspassers and kettles came up. It was interesting hearing their views on how to manage the problem.

Funnily neither of them were overly impressed when I said the easiest way to deal with the problem would be to run trains line speed at the idiots and kill a few.... (the ops manager had to ask if I would really do this, of course not.... I'd ask for a snowplough to do it.....).

 

Joking aside I witness people risking their lives everyday here in the box, at a barrow crossing that has got red/greens and a warning sounder on it. They are so desperate to catch a train they just don't think twice about putting themselves in Darwin award territory. I'm hoping that the day someones luck runs out I don't see it, but that everyone on the platform gets covered in the bits. It may serve as a lesson to them...

 

I have every sympathy with the drivers, I don't know how they get back into the cab after dealing with these loonies....

 

Andy G

 

Regarding the section I have italicised. Some years ago a couple at Milliken Park station (Glasgow/Ayr) line were walking along one platform to reach the footbridge and cross to the other platform to catch their train. They saw a train headlight in the distance and thinking it was their train, jumped down onto the track to get across quicker to ensure they caught it. Unfortunately it was actually a non-stopping service and struck them at around 90mph. The outcome can only be described as horrific, in fact so much so that one of the area response staff was unable to deal with the incident. Regardless of the stupidity of their actions I would not wish the result on them, the railway and other staff involved in the clear-up, and anyone who happened to witness it.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

14 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That was originally done for a TV advert. Or was that a Class 37?

 

 

Jason

The original was a 37, filmed on the Newcastle- Carlisle line; it had a detachable blue flashing light (which would render it out of gauge) attached for the filming. At the time, (1982, IIRC) I was working in Gateshead, and used to wander down to the shed at lunchtimes. This loco rather stood out in a sea of blue locos.

[locoholic]

48 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Regarding the section I have italicised. Some years ago a couple at Milliken Park station (Glasgow/Ayr) line were walking along one platform to reach the footbridge and cross to the other platform to catch their train. They saw a train headlight in the distance and thinking it was their train, jumped down onto the track to get across quicker to ensure they caught it. Unfortunately it was actually a non-stopping service and struck them at around 90mph. The outcome can only be described as horrific, in fact so much so that one of the area response staff was unable to deal with the incident. Regardless of the stupidity of their actions I would not wish the result on them, the railway and other staff involved in the clear-up, and anyone who happened to witness it.

 

 

Of course, the only possible conclusion to draw from this tragic tale in our zero-risk society is that the old-fashioned design of railway station with unfenced platform edges is fundamentally unsafe and should be abolished forthwith.

 

Whilst I have tremendous sympathy for the staff and emergency services faced with such a situation, it must be remembered that similarly horrific scenarios are an everyday occurrence on our roads, but strangely these attract much, much less publicity and are regarded as an unavoidable fact of life.

[Reorte]

10 minutes ago, locoholic said:

Whilst I have tremendous sympathy for the staff and emergency services faced with such a situation, it must be remembered that similarly horrific scenarios are an everyday occurrence on our roads, but strangely these attract much, much less publicity and are regarded as an unavoidable fact of life.

 

Not really, you don't have to look too far to see people talking about daily carnage on the roads. Even that though is a measure of just how many vehicles there are on the roads rather than how dangerous they are to an individual (which is quite an achievement because you don't have to look hard to find bad driving).

[jim.snowdon]

11 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Not really, you don't have to look too far to see people talking about daily carnage on the roads. Even that though is a measure of just how many vehicles there are on the roads rather than how dangerous they are to an individual (which is quite an achievement because you don't have to look hard to find bad driving).

Maybe not, but it is simply tolerated, and has been for decades.

 

Jim

[Reorte]

23 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Maybe not, but it is simply tolerated, and has been for decades.

 

I don't think "tolerated" is quite the right word. More like not much toleration for the sort of methods necessary to reduce them further (although numbers have gone down a lot over the last few decades) since they affect everyone but few will ever be affected by a serious accident. When individuals responsible for a good proportion of the risks on the road are identified there's rarely much public appetite for tolerating them (and rightly so). Come up with a way of identify the majority of those individuals (without treating everyone as a potential deathtrap) and removing them from the road before they cause a disaster and I'd put a lot of money that most people would instantly get behind it.

 

There's also a probably a difference between road and rail because we expect better from professional rail companies than we do the average person.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Reorte

[Damo666]

On 06/05/2019 at 21:50, Andrew Young said:

 

Jim,

 

What do you count this as?

 

That’s my train in the background, 1S47 and this was two I found. I should’ve been doing 125mph at this point until the Signalman put the signal back to red.

 

At the next bridge I found two more on this side of the railway in a similar position. And four adults with four boys in a similar position on the down side.

 

After finding three lots, I stopped where I was until Scotsman went past. The driver on 1V06 found people in similar positions at every bridge and access point from Willington to Tamworth. 

 

I do wish the general public woukd grasp that a fence is there for a reason and to stay off the railway.

 

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

What would have happened if you had stopped your train a few meters further along, blocking their view totally? They might have ignored you but they could hardly have ignored your Voyger.

[Bucoops]

On 06/05/2019 at 21:50, Andrew Young said:

 

Jim,

 

What do you count this as?

 

 

That’s my train in the background, 1S47 and this was two I found. I should’ve been doing 125mph at this point until the Signalman put the signal back to red.

 

At the next bridge I found two more on this side of the railway in a similar position. And four adults with four boys in a similar position on the down side.

 

After finding three lots, I stopped where I was until Scotsman went past. The driver on 1V06 found people in similar positions at every bridge and access point from Willington to Tamworth. 

 

I do wish the general public woukd grasp that a fence is there for a reason and to stay off the railway.

 

Andrew

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-48219462