Flying Scotsman aaround Burton earlier today

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-48219462

 

And I can't help thinking that in any case on the lower photo all those people a bit further back, in the field, on the right side of the fence, are going to get a better picture anyway.

[royaloak]

On 06/05/2019 at 12:34, jim.snowdon said:

It's strange how the Germans, for example, manage to run steam services every year on unfenced railways without this sort of thing being a problem. Perhaps they have a better understanding of the difference between "lineside" and "on the track". One is significantly more dangerous than the other, which is arguably safer than walking along the pavement on a busy main road. By lumping everyone who is the wrong side of the railway fence as being in danger simply dilutes the message as to what is and is not dangerous, to the point where people will ignore "advice".

 

Jim

Because over here once they are inside the boundary fence they are the railways responsibility, in Germany they have different rules which make things much easier over there.

 

If somebody is the wrong side of the fence and got injured/killed, if the railway was found to have been aware of said trespassing and did nothing to 'protect' the trespassers the railway would be found guilty of negligence or something.

 

In this Country it is nearly always somebody elses fault even when 'they' are blatantly where they shouldnt be. 

[royaloak]

On 07/05/2019 at 19:03, caradoc said:

 

Jim, if by 'not actually in a place of danger' you are referring to the two prats in Andrew Young's photo, standing feet away from a 125mph line with their backs to approaching trains, and with what seems to be their equipment left on a bridge parapet with limited clearance signs, there is no purpose whatsoever continuing this discussion.

 

I agree with you, Jim seems to think its still 1964 when people had common sense and were held accountable for their actions, sadly Today, that isnt the case. 

[locoholic]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/police-to-travel-aboard-flying-scotsman-to-deter-fans-from-tracks-1-4924419

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

And I can't help thinking that in any case on the lower photo all those people a bit further back, in the field, on the right side of the fence, are going to get a better picture anyway.

 

Is it the right side of the fence though? Looks like farmland to me. The photograph seems to be taken from a proper place.

 

Get orf moi land! 

 

 

 

Jason

[298]

57 minutes ago, royaloak said:

I agree with you, Jim seems to think its still 1964 when people had common sense and were held accountable for their actions, sadly Today, that isnt the case. 

 

Which is about when the Trespass fine dates from, and doesn't take into account the disruption caused. 

 

Fitting cameras might sound like a deterrent, but exactly how are these miscreants going to be identified, having managed to probably spend their entire lives without attracting the attention of the authorities? Short of a massive media campaign I doubt many people on here would be easily identifiable, or am I missing something and the feds could use software to link images to online information....?

[Reorte]

11 minutes ago, 298 said:

Fitting cameras might sound like a deterrent, but exactly how are these miscreants going to be identified, having managed to probably spend their entire lives without attracting the attention of the authorities? Short of a massive media campaign I doubt many people on here would be easily identifiable, or am I missing something and the feds could use software to link images to online information....?

 

Some of them look unlikely to have much of an online presence.

 

Hopefully if they manage to track down enough of them and they're suitably penalised the message will get through, they don't need to identify all of them for that.

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

Which is about when the Trespass fine dates from, and doesn't take into account the disruption caused. 

 

Fitting cameras might sound like a deterrent, but exactly how are these miscreants going to be identified, having managed to probably spend their entire lives without attracting the attention of the authorities? Short of a massive media campaign I doubt many people on here would be easily identifiable, or am I missing something and the feds could use software to link images to online information....?

 

How anyone in 2019 can live under the radar is debatable. You must really live in the sticks to not be seen a few dozen times a day on camera. Just walk through your local town or shopping area. Get on a bus, train, etc. CCTV is everywhere.

 

If you've got one, your smart TV is listening to you and possibly so is your kettle.

 

If they really want to find you they will.

 

But think on. They are photographers with all the gear. They probably have Flickr accounts with tons of evidence...

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

How anyone in 2019 can live under the radar is debatable. You must really live in the sticks to not be seen a few dozen times a day on camera. Just walk through your local town or shopping area. Get on a bus, train, etc. CCTV is everywhere.

 

If you've got one, your smart TV is listening to you and possibly so is your kettle.

 

If they really want to find you they will.

 

But think on. They are photographers with all the gear. They probably have Flickr accounts with tons of evidence...

 

 

Jason

I have all the gear, and around 250k images, but less than 50 on Flickr, I forgot I even had a Flickr account, until I stumbled on one of my own images in a search the other night.

[spikey]

On 06/05/2019 at 17:52, Simon Bendall said:

So, dangerous or not

https://twitter.com/chris_railway/status/1125176481221627905?s=12&fbclid=IwAR1-XFb5_Xzx-wZrpKv4Xw0Yx35iMqdd1eXqYRzqnRR3rt-VZqdBhKhZme0

Know where my money is.

 

Speaking as an ex-professional photographer, the one thing that always puzzles me about these idiots is what's the tripod for? 

 

ETA - Maybe an idiot with a tripod ranks higher than his fellow-idiots?

Edited May 10, 2019 by spikey

[Wheatley]

On ‎07‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 18:34, jim.snowdon said:

I do, and was on or about real railways (not preserved ones) long before there were PTS cards, but I was taught to think at system level when it came to assessing safety, not blindly accept rules without question, and to appreciate that safety by wrote is not the best way of getting the message through.

 

So far, all I see are a lot of people who cannot think beyond the rule book.

 

Jim

Well there's the answer then. We'll just train every gricer (and ad hoc smart phone photographer who just fancies seeing FS) in track safety and then they can wander about where they like because they'll all be looking after themselves. Presumably they can all co-operate with each other to arrange lookouts etc. Unfortunately people are inherently stupid, especially enthusiastic people in large groups, and it doesn't work like that.

 

Of course, if things carry on like this and the charter operators keep racking up delay penalties to the extent they were on Sunday, the problem will solve itself because the services will become financially unviable. Network Rail won't have to ban anything, FS will become a toxic brand from a commercial operator's point of view.

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, royaloak said:

Because over here once they are inside the boundary fence they are the railways responsibility, in Germany they have different rules which make things much easier over there.

 

If somebody is the wrong side of the fence and got injured/killed, if the railway was found to have been aware of said trespassing and did nothing to 'protect' the trespassers the railway would be found guilty of negligence or something.

 

In this Country it is nearly always somebody elses fault even when 'they' are blatantly where they shouldnt be. 

 

Your first paragraph contradicts your second, as per which trespassers are only the railway's responsibility if the measures designed to prevent or discourage trespass have knowingly been allowed to fail; The Tyne Yard child electric shock being one example. It is clearly impossible to physically prevent someone accessing the line if they are determined enough to do so, and on how many occasions has Network Rail actually been prosecuted for a trespasser fatality - Very, very few.

 

Part of my job as a Controller was to receive reports from outside agencies (usually the Police) about trespassers, and take the appropriate action; The official advice is that trains should only be cautioned if the trespasser was a child or under the influence of drugs or alcohol (how could anyone be sure they were not ?), however I preferred to caution, at least the first train, for any trespass report, if for no other reason than my own conscience should a trespasser I was aware of be killed or injured. The most difficult issues to deal with were reports from the Police of a suicidal person on, or heading for, the railway, in which circumstances they usually requested that we block the line; Our standard response was to impose a caution until the person was found and/or the line reported clear.

 

I fully agree that trespassers do, through their own actions and no-one else's, put themselves at risk, and if they are struck cause trauma to rail staff, Drivers most severely of course, and disruption to the train service, however there has to be a balance and IMHO we have it right in the UK.

 

[newbryford]

Sounds like it is on today's topics to be discussed on Radio 2 Jeremy Vine show.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

How anyone in 2019 can live under the radar is debatable. You must really live in the sticks to not be seen a few dozen times a day on camera. Just walk through your local town or shopping area. Get on a bus, train, etc. CCTV is everywhere.

 

If you've got one, your smart TV is listening to you and possibly so is your kettle.

 

If they really want to find you they will.

 

But think on. They are photographers with all the gear. They probably have Flickr accounts with tons of evidence...

 

 

Jason

 

The evidence might be out there - but the manpower it bring it together to a sufficient standard that prosecutions can take place is not.

 

Regrettably unless it involves a death, the Police simply do not have the resources to chase after low level crime like trespass these days.

[Tomsontour]

I really cannot understand why some of the posters in this thread are standing up and trying to reason why these fools are standing where they are. They're trespassing simple as that. 125mph line, back to traffic and to top it off a limited clearance board... We are always told you only go on or near the lineside if your duties require you to do so, photographing 60103 has never come up as a duty.... 

 

Hopefully they make an example of these idiots and will help deter people from doing this. 

 

As to the posters saying all is needed is conman sence, get a grip, it's no longer 1954, things move on, move with the times it's an offence to trespass so stop making it seem like it's okay as you're part of the problem. 

 

Anyways rant over, stay the right side of the fence and enjoy the loco working passing you, a little bit of research and you can find plenty of spots for nice shots that don't require you going anywhere near the track 

 

Matt

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, Tomsontour said:

I really cannot understand why some of the posters in this thread are standing up and trying to reason why these fools are standing where they are. They're trespassing simple as that. 125mph line, back to traffic and to top it off a limited clearance board... We are always told you only go on or near the lineside if your duties require you to do so, photographing 60103 has never come up as a duty.... 

 

Hopefully they make an example of these idiots and will help deter people from doing this. 

 

As to the posters saying all is needed is conman sence, get a grip, it's no longer 1954, things move on, move with the times it's an offence to trespass so stop making it seem like it's okay as you're part of the problem. 

 

Anyways rant over, stay the right side of the fence and enjoy the loco working passing you, a little bit of research and you can find plenty of spots for nice shots that don't require you going anywhere near the track

 

I don't think anyone is saying that it's OK to stand right next to the line like that. We're all actually on the same side here, we've just got radically different opinions about what approach is the most productive for reducing the chance of people getting hit by a train but what we all want is the same - people to not be hit by trains (or to worry the hell out of drivers or anyone else working on the railway).

 

Those not condemning every incident of trespass equally are not part of the problem though - those who treat it all as equal are. Their intentions are good but unfortunately sticking with "these are the rules, end of" does not consider how people behave and react. It's all very well saying what people should do but people don't always do that, and being very rigid along a well-defined boundary and that's it just isn't necessarily the most effective way of keeping people out of harm's way. It leads to them thinking that the risk is being caught rather than being killed or injured. It does not lead to the respect that keeps them away to begin with.

[jim.snowdon]

25 minutes ago, Tomsontour said:

I really cannot understand why some of the posters in this thread are standing up and trying to reason why these fools are standing where they are. They're trespassing simple as that. 125mph line, back to traffic and to top it off a limited clearance board... We are always told you only go on or near the lineside if your duties require you to do so, photographing 60103 has never come up as a duty.... 

 

Hopefully they make an example of these idiots and will help deter people from doing this. 

 

As to the posters saying all is needed is conman sence, get a grip, it's no longer 1954, things move on, move with the times it's an offence to trespass so stop making it seem like it's okay as you're part of the problem. 

 

Anyways rant over, stay the right side of the fence and enjoy the loco working passing you, a little bit of research and you can find plenty of spots for nice shots that don't require you going anywhere near the track 

 

Matt

It's not about trespass as such, it's about the inability of some to recognise that whilst trespass itself is an offence, it is not by definition dangerous in itself. It is standing on or (too) near the line that is dangerous, and, I would accept, an issue for drivers as unless the person has acknowledged your approach, there is no way of knowing that they are aware of your presence. Where things go wrong is that if authority persistently labels trespass as dangerous, when people's experience tells them it isn't, any respect for authority is lost. The real message is not "don't trespass on the railway - it's dangerous", but "don't get hit by a train - it'll kill you"; don't trespass is a secondary issue, one of "you should not be the wrong side of the railway fence".

 

Jim

[298]

 

There isn't a soft line between mild trespass and putting yourself in danger, and that's the Railways definition-if you don't like it, write to your MP to see if there can be a law change. 

 

in cases like this, having an expensive camera and claiming an enthusiasts knowledge of the railways isn't a good example to set as the lemmings will still see someone lineside and think it's ok for them. A good role model would be someone with a PTS card, full safety gear and permission, everyone else should be the other side of the fence.

 

I'm still flabbergasted absolutely fuming that a so called enthusiast at any level thinks it's ok to be next to a running line with just the protection of a pair of safety boots and no hint of a hi-viz. Not that I'm advocating every one dresses like the Orange army for their trespass shots, but it just shows how entitled some think they are.... 

Edited May 10, 2019 by 298

[royaloak]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Of course, if things carry on like this and the charter operators keep racking up delay penalties to the extent they were on Sunday, the problem will solve itself because the services will become financially unviable. Network Rail won't have to ban anything, FS will become a toxic brand from a commercial operator's point of view.

Unfortunately the tour operators dont pick up the tab for the delays, Network Rail do.

[phil-b259]

55 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Unfortunately the tour operators dont pick up the tab for the delays, Network Rail do.

 

 

Quite

 

Which means less money to invest in the day to day job of running the railway.

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, 298 said:

 

There isn't a soft line between mild trespass and putting yourself in danger, and that's the Railways definition-if you don't like it, write to your MP to see if there can be a law change.

 

And if that's the line the railway takes it's going to keep having problems with people who perceive it as rules for the sake of rules, which in turn is not going to help stopping people being where they're in danger because they're not dissuaded in the first place - they don't have any respect for the rules and taking such an absolute approach isn't increasing that respect. We don't live in a perfect world with perfect people so we need to work out ways of getting the result we want with how they are, not with how we want them to be. If we can nudge them towards the "how we want them to be" direction so much the better.

 

Quote

in cases like this, having an expensive camera and claiming an enthusiasts knowledge of the railways isn't a good example to set as the lemmings will still see someone lineside and think it's ok for them. A good role model would be someone with a PTS card, full safety gear and permission, everyone else should be the other side of the fence.

 

A good role model in this case is someone taking good photos from somewhere they're perfectly entitled to be, and there are plenty of locations where that can be achieved.
 

Quote

I'm still flabbergasted absolutely fuming that a so called enthusiast at any level thinks it's ok to be next to a running line with just the protection of a pair of safety boots and no hint of a hi-viz. Not that I'm advocating every one dresses like the Orange army for their trespass shots, but it just shows how entitled some think they are.... 

 

 

I'm astounded by it too, but step back for a moment and think from their perspective - why they're doing that. And don't instantly jump to the conclusion "because they're idiots" (that'll come later regardless). As I keep saying just saying "they're the wrong side of the fence, that's it, no further discussion" is not dissuading them, and you need to put yourself in their shoes, however unpalatable that may be, to get to the bottom of why, and getting to the bottom of why is absolutely necessary to achieve an improvement on the situation. Just saying how things should be and legally are doesn't do that.

[phil-b259]

5 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

And if that's the line the railway takes it's going to keep having problems with people who perceive it as rules for the sake of rules, which in turn is not going to help stopping people being where they're in danger because they're not dissuaded in the first place - they don't have any respect for the rules and taking such an absolute approach isn't increasing that respect. We don't live in a perfect world with perfect people so we need to work out ways of getting the result we want with how they are, not with how we want them to be. If we can nudge them towards the "how we want them to be" direction so much the better.

 

 

A good role model in this case is someone taking good photos from somewhere they're perfectly entitled to be, and there are plenty of locations where that can be achieved.
 

 

I'm astounded by it too, but step back for a moment and think from their perspective - why they're doing that. And don't instantly jump to the conclusion "because they're idiots" (that'll come later regardless). As I keep saying just saying "they're the wrong side of the fence, that's it, no further discussion" is not dissuading them, and you need to put yourself in their shoes, however unpalatable that may be, to get to the bottom of why, and getting to the bottom of why is absolutely necessary to achieve an improvement on the situation. Just saying how things should be and legally are doesn't do that.

 

As ever people don’t seem to understand that the main reasons for change have NOTHING TO DO WITH NR - THEY ARE DOWN TO LAWYERS, JUDGES AND THE CPS!

 

Like it or not the LEGAL environment in which organisations such as NR operate has changed significantly since the 1950s / 60s / 70s where far more onus was placed on people to look after themselves.

 

Let me assure you if someone got injured while trespassing on NR to see FS and NR has not taken action to reduce all trains to walking pace in the area then it would undoubtedly be found guilty of corporate manslaughter!

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As ever people don’t seem to understand that the main reasons for change have NOTHING TO DO WITH NR - THEY ARE DOWN TO LAWYERS, JUDGES AND THE CPS!

 

Like it or not the LEGAL environment in which organisations such as NR operate has changed significantly since the 1950s / 60s / 70s where far more onus was placed on people to look after themselves.

 

Let me assure you if someone got injured while trespassing on NR to see FS and NR has not taken action to reduce all trains to walking pace in the area then it would undoubtedly be found guilty of corporate manslaughter!

 

No, I do understand that - note I never said anything specific about NR. It's all part of an environment we need to change if we're going to improve matters, because the current situation is blatently not working, and "ban this, stop that then" will merely increase scorn and contempt - as I said you have to consider how people think and behave  to improve the situation rather than simply bunkering down to "this is what the law says". That's why in this case I'm asking to put aside the absolute rights and wrongs and consider pragmatism - because as I said earlier I do believe everyone here is on the same side when it comes to not wanting people in the way of trains. Of course NR (or anyone else involved) can't directly change the bigger picture but it's too easy to fall into the trap of everyone just passing the buck rather than accepting responsibility for what they do - from the trespassing fools upwards.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Reorte

[NittenDormer]

On 06/05/2019 at 21:50, Andrew Young said:

 

Jim,

 

What do you count this as?

 

 

 

Their positioning logic has dawned on me - being further back than the bridge parapet, they are safe from anything that doesn't hit the bridge. As long as the bridge doesn't sway, or stumble, or move in the slipstream. Having said that, they could legitimately be that close to the track on a station platform, so ignoring the trespass element, inconsistent application of 'safety'?

 

[Reorte]

Just now, NittenDormer said:

Their positioning logic has dawned on me - being further back than the bridge parapet, they are safe from anything that doesn't hit the bridge. As long as the bridge doesn't sway, or stumble, or move in the slipstream. Having said that, they could legitimately be that close to the track on a station platform, so ignoring the trespass element, inconsistent application of 'safety'?

 

A platform edge is at least a clear demarcation, with a yellow line often too. Tie the so-and-sos just clear of where they can get hit but still close then they might see the point of it.