Flying Scotsman aaround Burton earlier today

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

So, if the message that trespassing on the railway is dangerous is arbitrary and ineffective because 'the more you just blankly insist "it's simple, these are the rules, obey them, end of" the more they'll think it's rules for the sake of rules. Demanding respect does not work', what is the alternative ? What message should Network Rail and the BT Police put about trespass ? Maybe 'Do not go beyond the boundary fence, you are trespassing, however it's only dangerous if you go on the track, if you keep clear of that you'll probably be OK' ?

 

As Stationmaster says, the results of a person being struck by a train are often horrendous, and certainly in my railway career there were incidents when body parts could not be located, only to be found (often by PW staff) some time later. It has been said before, the general public is clueless about railways, the only message to give them is do not trespass, full stop.

 

All the while the message "don't trespass, it's dangerous" is banded about, it will have next to zero impact, because the sort of people who do trespass, ie cross the railway fence, know that it self-evidently isn't. It's only getting too near to the vehicle loading gauge that is, inasmuch as too close and you will get hit. But, from a railway perspective, the cess is still considered to be a place of safety. Standing in the cess whilst a train passes is not an experience to be taken lightly, but at least one redeeming feature of a railborne vehicle is that its path is predictable. A pedestrian on a country road, or a cyclist being overtaken by an HGV is at a greater risk. 

Putting across the message that being on the wrong side of the railway fence is breaking the law and can get you arrested has little weight to it so long as the probability of getting arrested is negligible. There aren't the police resources to do anything effective, and sending a train in front of any steam special is likely to cause at least as much delay to the railway. You might have more success sending a railborne water cannon in advance and simply dispensing summary justice, but that isn't the British way.

The root cause of the problem is not so much steam locomotives on the main line, particularly as this has become more of an everyday event than it used to be, but the iconic status of a particular A3 amongst the general public. The answer, in terms of containing the problem, is simply not to run Flying Scotsman, even though that goes against commercial interests.

 

Jim

[Wheres_Wally]

The problem is that the British public doesn't care about rules or laws. Unless they get caught, they think they've done nothing wrong. 

[petethemole]

Perhaps the answer is to run with the cylinder drain cocks constantly open; no-one will want to get close to the lineside if all they can photograph is an approaching cloud of steam.

 

I'll get me coat....

[royaloak]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry to be blunt but trains don't necessarily just kill people, often as not they dismantle them.

I remember one at Surbiton where they couldnt find the head, they had found all the other 'bits' but the head was nowhere to be seen so the search got further and further away from the impact point. When they eventually found it several hundred yards away from the rest of the bits and it was ascertained the gangway had detached the head and the sheet steel door (it was a 450) had acted like a springboard sending the head off into the middle distance.

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

All the while the message "don't trespass, it's dangerous" is banded about, it will have next to zero impact, because the sort of people who do trespass, ie cross the railway fence, know that it self-evidently isn't. It's only getting too near to the vehicle loading gauge that is, inasmuch as too close and you will get hit. But, from a railway perspective, the cess is still considered to be a place of safety. Standing in the cess whilst a train passes is not an experience to be taken lightly, but at least one redeeming feature of a railborne vehicle is that its path is predictable. A pedestrian on a country road, or a cyclist being overtaken by an HGV is at a greater risk. 

Putting across the message that being on the wrong side of the railway fence is breaking the law and can get you arrested has little weight to it so long as the probability of getting arrested is negligible. There aren't the police resources to do anything effective, and sending a train in front of any steam special is likely to cause at least as much delay to the railway. You might have more success sending a railborne water cannon in advance and simply dispensing summary justice, but that isn't the British way.

The root cause of the problem is not so much steam locomotives on the main line, particularly as this has become more of an everyday event than it used to be, but the iconic status of a particular A3 amongst the general public. The answer, in terms of containing the problem, is simply not to run Flying Scotsman, even though that goes against commercial interests.

 

Jim

 

I agree with most of what you say Jim, but I still wonder what message exactly should be put out to deter trespassers ? It would be helpful if some of those trespassing could have been apprehended and, as well as receiving the appropriate punishment, be asked 'why did you think it was OK to climb over the boundary fence and wander about on the railway ?'.

 

I would hazard a guess that most of the trespassers were not railway enthusiasts, but members of the public whose interest was aroused by a combination of the name of this particular loco and reports in the local press. I would also not be surprised if most people did not actually intend to trespass but on seeing the first couple of prats climb over the fence, decided they would follow suit.

 

It would be a great pity if FS were to be banned from the main line, but given that Network Rail is judged by its performance figures, which are adversely affected every time this loco runs, it would be understandable. Perhaps the route and timings should be kept secret, as with Royal Train operations, although with the enthusiast grapevine and today's instantaneous communications, that would probably be next to impossible.

 

[298]

And what is a train driver going to think when they see someone the wrong side of the fence, assuming they can see someone in time at 125mph? Are they drunk or have a medical condition and don't know where they are? Do they have morbid intentions? Or are they someone with a camera wondering why all these friendly drivers are tooting at them...? 

 

Damn train drivers, always thinking of themselves instead of those legitimate law abiding Trespassers....

Edited May 15, 2019 by 298

[SM42]

On 14/05/2019 at 10:40, Reorte said:

 

 

Please remember that we're both wanting the same thing - I hope - people not getting hit by trains. That is the one and only consideration I'm looking at here.

 

You're not  really answering my post at all because you appear to be taking the view that I'm simply rejecting rules. I have not said that in the slightest. I have been trying to explain why, even though the intentions are good, the current regime and very rigid black and white attitude is ineffective. Sneery comments like "spoil someone else's fun" further smack of dismissing, rather than considering, other views of the issue.

 

 

 

I am and was in no doubt that we were in agreement. I did not think you were rejecting the rules. If that is the impression I gave then I aploogise

 

What I was trying to respond to was the concept that "those are the rules" does not command respect and that we should legislate for how people do behave not how they should behave.

 

The rules are often as a result of how people have behaved, often with dire conmsequences.  The rules therefore legislate for how people do behave and exist to modify that behaviour.   Now some might see that as taking away a perceived freedom to enjoy their hobby as they see fit, regardless of risk. Clearly many need protecting from themselves.

 

How exactly you square that circle I don't know. Whatever you do you come back to the same black and white  problem of "Those are the rules. Respect them," that you highlighted as being ineffective.

 

Draconian punishments? Maybe, maybe not. But there is a whole raft of procedure to go through and the process may fall at any of the hurdles between the police, CPS and courts. Added to that we only have to look at how rules in other areas that do have some quite severe penalties (or potential dire consequences for ignoring them) are flouted on a regular basis, to see that the fear of punishment doesn't always work.

 

Maybe the fear of detection is a better deterrent.  Numerous people who ventured across the fence that day "got away with it". Maybe the law will catch up with some in time, but at the time they got away with it and may well have done so before. That is the rub. If you can regularly flout the rules / law and get away with it, then it loses any impact, it seems to be over the top. H&S gone mad. You'll never catch me Guv

 

Ban any future such steam workings? We go back to the spoiling the fun for no reason, it wasn't me wot done it, H&S gone mad logic that got us there in the first place

 

It's an interesting debate. I don't know the answer. I know what I would like it to be. Whatever it is you can bet many will not see any logic to it.

 

Andy

[SM42]

15 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

 You might have more success sending a railborne water cannon in advance and simply dispensing summary justice, but that isn't the British way.

 

 

Jim

 

Hmm. It's that time of year when the sandite is replaced with weedkiller.

 

Just a thought.

 

I'll leave it here.

 

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

All the while the message "don't trespass, it's dangerous" is banded about, it will have next to zero impact, because the sort of people who do trespass, ie cross the railway fence, know that it self-evidently isn't. It's only getting too near to the vehicle loading gauge that is, inasmuch as too close and you will get hit. But, from a railway perspective, the cess is still considered to be a place of safety. Standing in the cess whilst a train passes is not an experience to be taken lightly, but at least one redeeming feature of a railborne vehicle is that its path is predictable. A pedestrian on a country road, or a cyclist being overtaken by an HGV is at a greater risk. 

Putting across the message that being on the wrong side of the railway fence is breaking the law and can get you arrested has little weight to it so long as the probability of getting arrested is negligible. There aren't the police resources to do anything effective, and sending a train in front of any steam special is likely to cause at least as much delay to the railway. You might have more success sending a railborne water cannon in advance and simply dispensing summary justice, but that isn't the British way.

The root cause of the problem is not so much steam locomotives on the main line, particularly as this has become more of an everyday event than it used to be, but the iconic status of a particular A3 amongst the general public. The answer, in terms of containing the problem, is simply not to run Flying Scotsman, even though that goes against commercial interests.

 

Jim

The UK average is c.20+ trespasser  deaths per annum although that might include suicides (the US average is 458 per annum according to US railroad statistics).  The 2017 figure in the UK was 29 which was dwarfed by that in some other EU countries with Poland topping the list at 127 followed by Germany with 93 then Hungary with 79 and France with 46 - all of these are 'bald' figures and not adjusted for route or train miles.

 

Getting arrested if you cross the fence is one thing, getting killed or maimed is another, but whichever commonsense (which many people nowadays seem to lack) is a totally different mater and surely people ought to realise that the fence is there for a reason, and nowadays that reason is to keep people out of a potentially dangerous area.  Hence at all the worst trespass spots NR has got to a lot of expense to install palisade fencing to eliminate the risk of repeated trespass.

 

But alas the Flying Moneypit has - as you say - attracted undue attention and is inevitably responsible for a large percentage of the trespass associated witth mainline steam operation.

[Hobby]

Oh Boy! I've just waded through the whole thread having been away for the last week. Just before I went away I was in the messroom and listening to the discussions about this, some from drivers involved... It seem that most of this discussion has been around the trespass itself and (amazingly!) about whether they were justified to be where they were (within what looks like about 3/4ft of a 125mph ruining line!). I don't understand how people can even condone this sort of behaviour but it seems that several of you can... 

 

 

However one thing that seems to have been completely ignored (though mentioned in Andrew's posts very early on) is the impact it had on the travelling public. As a passenger guard I have to pick up the pieces following delays caused by these idiot's actions. As Andrew said these people ruined many people's day, missing connections, arriving hours late, missing appointments, the list goes on. As the person who have to deal with the fall out we then get it in the neck, all because some selfish railway "enthusiast" "has" to get "that" shot... Whilst I can live with delays caused by suicides and errant lorry drivers bashing into bridges in these cases they delays are caused by people who should know better but are so self centred it's unbelievable.

 

As far as I am concerned there should be an immediate ban, firstly on FS, and if the problem continues with other steam specials (and diesel ones) then the ban should be extended. I don't see why those of us who work on the railways and those who travel on it should be inconvenienced by a number of self centred ignorant prats.

 

In the meantime get those photos of those trespassers out on all the Social Media outlets and lets get them rounded up and a few jail terms handed out.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Hobby

[Fat Controller]

On 15/05/2019 at 12:21, The Stationmaster said:

The UK average is c.20+ trespasser  deaths per annum although that might include suicides (the US average is 458 per annum according to US railroad statistics).  The 2017 figure in the UK was 29 which was dwarfed by that in some other EU countries with Poland topping the list at 127 followed by Germany with 93 then Hungary with 79 and France with 46 - all of these are 'bald' figures and not adjusted for route or train miles.

 

Getting arrested if you cross the fence is one thing, getting killed or maimed is another, but whichever commonsense (which many people nowadays seem to lack) is a totally different mater and surely people ought to realise that the fence is there for a reason, and nowadays that reason is to keep people out of a potentially dangerous area.  Hence at all the worst trespass spots NR has got to a lot of expense to install palisade fencing to eliminate the risk of repeated trespass.

 

But alas the Flying Moneypit has - as you say - attracted undue attention and is inevitably responsible for a large percentage of the trespass associated witth mainline steam operation.

I'm pretty certain the 20+/- deaths from trespass excludes suicide, or at least those cases where the Coroner has given a suicide verdict. There is an industry-wide initiative to reduce deaths from both suicide and trespass; Lynne's been doing some work on it.

[Reorte]

56 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Oh Boy! I've just waded through the whole thread having been away for the last week. Just before I went away I was in the messroom and listening to the discussions about this, some from drivers involved... It seem that most of this discussion has been around the trespass itself and (amazingly!) about whether they were justified to be where they were (within what looks like about 3/4ft of a 125mph ruining line!). I don't understand how people can even condone this sort of behaviour but it seems that several of you can...

 

Not justified to be where they were, no-one's said that as far as I can remember. Not condemning all to the same degree no matter what is not the same as condoning, or saying they were justified, or anything like that. I've certainly got the impression that there's no difference of opinion at all about the people in the photo at the start of the thread. Some severe well-publicised penalties there (before a train gives them a far more severe one) would be very welcome. The arguments have been entirely down to differences of opinion about the most effective approach to stop people getting hit by trains, not defending trespassing.

 

What I think will get you somewhere is getting a group together of railway experts, who understand in detail what's practically possible and what the risks are, and psychologists, who understand how the general public think, behave, and react, and shutting them in a room together.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Reorte

[Titanius Anglesmith]

55 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I'm pretty certain the 20+/- deaths from trespass excludes suicide, or at least those cases where the Coroner has given a suicide verdict. There is an industry-wide initiative to reduce deaths from both suicide and trespass; Lynne's been doing some work on it.

 

Indeed, there’s around 100 one-unders a year on the London Underground alone, mostly fatal. We had two just yesterday.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Titanius Anglesmith

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Not justified to be where they were, no-one's said that as far as I can remember.he arguments have been entirely down to differences of opinion about the most effective approach to stop people getting hit by trains, not defending trespassing.

 

Sorry, Reorte, but that's not the way many of the posts have been written, perhaps some posters should review their wording. Many of the posts i have read on here have tried to get round the fact that these people are trespassing, by saying things like they were "not in dangerous positions", and that's just one example, and it's irrelevant, they shouldn't have been there, end of. No Driver should have to go through the stress of having near misses or abuse just so some idiot can get his photo/video and no member of the travelling public should be inconvenienced simply to pander to the whims of a small number of people who think they are above the law. This was a section of High Speed Railway (125 mph in case you've forgotten) and the results to someone standing within a few feet of the line when a train goes past at 125 mph is considerably different to that of the same person standing next to a preserved line at 25 mph. It seems some people needed to be reminded of that.

 

There are only two approaches that I can see that may work, one is a complete ban on steam specials and the other (which may or may not work) is to prosecute those responsible for trespassing (no matter how far they are over the boundary). Either will do me.

[Reorte]

Don't concentrate on the "right next to the line" part, because I definitely think that everyone in this thread is in agreement there.

 

A complete ban on steam specials? If it comes to that but I'd definitely say try removing just FS from the mainline first. As for prosecuting no matter where on the wrong side, I've explained in other posts why I believe that may not actually work (considering it'll be impossible in practice to identify everyone), although perhaps psychologist who specialises in that sort of area of human behaviour and why people behave the way they do would be able to tell me I'm wrong -  that's the sort of person who's input is needed, they're the ones who'll best tell you what the most effective method is of stopping people from doing stupid things.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Reorte

[Hobby]

You can't differentiate between next to the line and on the lineside with these people, there is only one rule, you shouldn't be on the wrong side of the fence, as someone said earlier if you allow "some" trespassing how you you control it and ensure the people who are doing it are well behaved enough not to try for more dangerous positions. Answer is you can't. So the railways should not open the thin end of the wedge by overlooking less "dangerous" trespassing but treat the whole lot the same way. Only in that way will the message get across that it's unacceptable. Your comments don'y help in that regard as it makes people think there is "acceptable" trespassing, there isn't such a thing. If a driver on such a line sees someone the wrong side of the fence they will report it meaning delays to his and other trains and much inconvenience to everyone aboard those trains. I can't understand why people can't understand that and still try to justify such behaviour.

 

I don't particularly care what you think will work or not, we haven't tried it yet so it's wrong to pre-judge. If you are the wrong side of the fence you are trespassing, such behaviour causes the railways many delays and inconvenience to the travelling public through all of the year, though this is an extreme example it's not unique. Trouble is I don't see many (if any) prosecutions. In this case they have lots of evidence of the people involved so the BTP should be acting, from what I've seen so far they aren't.

[Reorte]

For more than just my opinion I did a bit of Googling for some academic articles on the general subject. Here's one: https://law.yale.edu/system/files/area/center/justice/document/5697d9ee08aea2d74375cb87.pdf

 

Of note in the abstract (and I admit I've not read the whole paper) is this:

 

"Psychological research has played an important role in legitimating this change in the way policymakers think about policing by demonstrating that perceived legitimacy shapes a set of law-related behaviors as well as or better than concerns about the risk of punishment."

 

And yes, the lack of many, if any, prosecutions is very disappointing and is the first things I'd like to see happen.

[Matt C]

Well just done the  Fife Circular trip on the FS (the first one of three trips run by the S.R.P.S)  Happy to say an event free trip, lots of people out to see her, lineside, roadways, level crossings, bridges, stations etc and didn't see one on the wrong side of any fences

 

Happy days ! 

 

Matt

[spikey]

On 11/05/2019 at 15:49, bobthesod4479 said:

Spikey said earlier

Speaking as an ex-professional photographer, the one thing that always puzzles me about these idiots is what's the tripod for? 

 

Hmm as an ex professional Photographer also , i am baffled by your statement.  I regularly use a tripod,   2  in fact  one for the video, one for the camera on motor drive. Both giving me rock steady shots and the added bonus of actually watching the train with the Mk1 eyeball and keeping a good watch around me.

 

I am obliged to you bobthesod for that explanation, which I have only just noticed.  I had to retire just as video shot on a DSLR was becoming A Thing, so I've never really got used to thinking of one being used for that purpose, for which use a tripod is obviously essential much of the time.  I can also now see that having the camera on sticks enables one to be far more aware of ones immediate surroundings.

 

However, what has brought me back to this thread now was wondering if BTP ever caught up with Mr Grumpy and she in the trackie bottoms who feature in Andrew Young's excellent snap.  Has anyone heard anything of this - or indeed of any prosecutions arising from that day out?

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by spikey

[Steamport Southport]

16 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

I am obliged to you bobthesod for that explanation, which I have only just noticed.  I had to retire just as video shot on a DSLR was becoming A Thing, so I've never really got used to thinking of one being used for that purpose, for which use a tripod is obviously essential much of the time.  I can also now see that having the camera on sticks enables one to be far more aware of ones immediate surroundings.

 

However, what has brought me back to this thread now was wondering if BTP ever caught up with Mr Grumpy and she in the trackie bottoms who feature in Andrew Young's excellent snap.  Has anyone heard anything of this - or indeed of any prosecutions arising from that day out?

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's a bloke.

 

Any way. Another stupid local paper printing the times...

 

"The railway operators are reluctant to publish the times". Then prints them anyway. 

 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/17698752.flying-scotsman-to-pass-through-gloucestershire-this-weekend/?ref=rss

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 11, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[spikey]

16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I'm pretty sure that's a bloke.

 

I'm not convinced, but  by all means delete "she in the trackie bottoms" and insert "the character fannying about with what looks to be one of Mr Grumpy's filters".

 

Whatever, have they yet been apprehended and marched before the beak?  Enquiring minds need to know!