014 Trackwork

[MarshLane]

Hi all,

A couple of friends have been talking about possibly doing a small exhibition layout based around Ffestiniog practice, in 0-16.5mm.  Some delving around and more discussion and I came up with Dava's post from 2017 

 

 

Which set them thinking, that if they are going to do this right, lets go 0-14 scale and get it spot on, especially as if it happens, then hand-built track would be a must anyway.  However, a query popped up, we have sent EDM Models an email about his Double Fairlie kit, but with the May Bank Holiday not had a response yet - although that appears to be out of stock and finished from the website, but thoughts then turned to rail and gauges.  Following the above topic, did any 0-14 gauges actually appear?  It is not too difficult to create some, but why reinvent the wheel if we don't have to!

 

Also, having looked on the Karlgarlin website, it appears that rail has become more obtainable in recent months through Precision Paints, but which is the correct rail to use for FR modelling?  Any advice, thoughts/comments would be welcome.  We acknowledge that if we decide to go down this road, there is a fair amount of scratch-building involved, but that does not necessarily put us off - maybe I should say them as my involvement would be limited because of time I suspect!

 

Rich

[jc2001]

Hi Rich,

 

O14 is certainly more of a DIY genre but in my opinion is much more convincing with accurate flangeways etc and tends to run better. 

If you are modelling early FR then you would want chaired track. I think Paul Holmes used S scale rail and chairs on his Dina's 1869. Recent FR track has much heavier rail so would probably need Karlgarin code 100 rather than the code 75 which is more appropriate for older NG lines.

 

You may find the O14 group useful: https://groups.io/g/o14

 

John

[Dava]

Interesting thread, Rich. 014 is definitely feasible and in 7mm scale you can do it without the compromises that are inevitable with 0-16.5. Alternatively you can look at the authentic gauge/scale combinations of 1:50 scale using 12mm gauge or 8mm: foot using 16.5mm gauge.

 

014 is no longer dependent on KB Scale. Look at what Mark Clarke is offering, its not FR but the quality and ingenuity is there, as with EDM: https://www.locosnstuff.com/

 

Dava

[MarshLane]

Guys,

Thanks for the responses.

 

@jc2001 Thanks.  The DIY option is fine, as I think between us we have enough skill to be able to achieve it. Interesting what you say about Paul Holmes using S scale rail and chairs on Dinas, that certainly looks nice.  We'll do some digging on that one and I'll join the O14 group too!  We are about to start putting the CADs together for an FR slate wagon, with the intention to have it etched in Nickel Silver and use Zamzoodled chopper couplings.  All part of a plan to build up towards an FR England ... if we get that far!

 

@Dava We did note the comments in your '014 now and the future' thread about 12mm or 8mm, but decided that keeping with 014 provided the best option for what we wanted.  Long way off a layout being built, but a small foot long photo plank to test the wagons on is probably not that far off, just need to solve the question of gauges.  A couple of us have done hand-built track before but always had roller gauges to do it.

 

Rich

 

[jc2001]

@MarshLane The main gauges I use for plain track are home-made from a bit of bent over brass strip with slots filed for the rails and then the strip is opened up so it sits nicely in place. These can be seen in photos on page 19 of my old NG&I REVIEW trackwork articles which can be downloaded from here: narrowgaugeandindustrial.co.uk/pages/review-extras-finescale-7mm-narrow-gauge-trackwork

 

John 

[MarshLane]

5 hours ago, jc2001 said:

@MarshLane The main gauges I use for plain track are home-made from a bit of bent over brass strip with slots filed for the rails and then the strip is opened up so it sits nicely in place. These can be seen in photos on page 19 of my old NG&I REVIEW trackwork articles which can be downloaded from here: narrowgaugeandindustrial.co.uk/pages/review-extras-finescale-7mm-narrow-gauge-trackwork

 

John 

 

John,

Thanks for that - ah your that JC!  Yes I downloaded those pages a while back when my mate first suggested the idea!  I love the idea of using cutdown staples for holding the track to sleepers, so simple, yet totally effective.  Funnily I was only reading that PDF thats sat on my desktop last night.  

 

I am a subscriber to NW&I, but ordered the back issue last night for making your chopper couplings DCC operational.  I suspect a slate wagon with a chopper coupling will look odd, but if we do this, we want to be able to shunt wagons, so hook and chain isn't really viable.  Have to see how it comes out!  I look forward to reading more about what you did.

 

Thanks for the comment on the gauges, I suspect ours will be the same, although I may attempt to try and create some roller gauges on a lathe.  Do you find that you needed to do any gauge widening on curves at all?

 

Once we've got something underway, I'll put a post or two on the O14 Groups.io group, as well as here.  While there doesn't seem to be many people modelling O-14, hopefully there might be some interest in what's going on.

 

Rich

[Jub45565]

15 hours ago, MarshLane said:

@jc2001 Thanks.  The DIY option is fine, as I think between us we have enough skill to be able to achieve it. Interesting what you say about Paul Holmes using S scale rail and chairs on Dinas, that certainly looks nice.  We'll do some digging on that one and I'll join the O14 group too!  We are about to start putting the CADs together for an FR slate wagon, with the intention to have it etched in Nickel Silver and use Zamzoodled chopper couplings.  All part of a plan to build up towards an FR England ... if we get that far!

 

Sounds interesting Rich.

 

The 7mmNGA do etched FR 2T and 3T slate wagons.  It is somewhere in my queue to check the actual geometries, as I expect the widths at least will have been stretched to work in 16.5mm gauge.  The axlebox castings supplied with these looks very good though.  Slate waggons don't use chopper couplings though, they are all link & hook  (locos didn't have choppers pre preservation either).

 

The FR England is available as a kit from Mercian - again I don't know what has been changed to make it work for 16.5mm gauge though.  EDM do small England wheels, and large England wheels (Little Giant & Welsh Pony) have been in the queue.

 

I have plans for 0-14 modelling, but it isn't near the top of the queue at present - it will be interesting to hear how you get on though.

[Mike Bellamy]

15 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 We are about to start putting the CADs together for an FR slate wagon, with the intention to have it etched in Nickel Silver and use Zamzoodled chopper couplings.  All part of a plan to build up towards an FR England ... if we get that far!

 

 

 

Rich - The 7mm Narrow Gauge Association already produce etched 2 and 3 ton versions of the FR Slate Wagon as shown on this page

https://7mmnga.org.uk/Slate-wagons-and-chopper-couplings.php

 

England locos are available from Mercian and Port Wynnstay (once Phil gets back into production following his move to Porthmadog)

http://www.modelrailways.tv/ng-7mm-locos.html

 

Phil's model is an early England with flat top tanks in resin but using the Mercian chassis.

 

I help Paul Martin with the EDM Models stand at a few shows - I know his stock of Double Engine kits was very low - one of the problems is the need to source a supply of replacement motors as Mashima are no longer available.

 

It looks like you need to break free of the Flatlands of Lincolnshire and make your way to the centre of the brewing industry ! Come to Burton upon Trent on Saturday 8th June as most of the 7mmNGA manufacturers and traders will be at the 40th Anniversary Exhibition.

https://7mmnga.org.uk/AGM.php

 

Good luck with your project

 

Mike

 

 

 

EDIT - Pete above beat me to it - I must type too slowly . . . . . . . 

 

.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Mike Bellamy

[MarshLane]

Thanks for the encouragement Pete.

 

I'll take a look at the 7mmNGA etched kits.  To be honest part of the reason for looking at scratch building them ourselves (can CAD design/etching and/or 3D printing be called scratch building??)  was to gain some experience.  We have a thought that while we don't want to reinvent the wheel, we need to learn and try and make as many pitfalls/mistakes on the small items so we have a good grounding in the principals when it comes to locos.  

 

In addition, if we are going 0-14 its because we want it to look right, so it seems to make sense that if we are putting the effort into getting the track and scale right, why not built the locos and stock ourselves so that we can get them as close as possible to the real thing - acknowledging that the current day real thing has changed no end from 100 years ago or earlier!  The advent of trying to build things may end up being our downfall of course!  But as my dad always says, if you don't try you don't know!

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

5 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said:

Rich - The 7mm Narrow Gauge Association already produce etched 2 and 3 ton versions of the FR Slate Wagon as shown on this page

https://7mmnga.org.uk/Slate-wagons-and-chopper-couplings.php

 

England locos are available from Mercian and Port Wynnstay (once Phil gets back into production following his move to Porthmadog)

http://www.modelrailways.tv/ng-7mm-locos.html

 

Phil's model is an early England with flat top tanks in resin but using the Mercian chassis.

 

I help Paul Martin with the EDM Models stand at a few shows - I know his stock of Double Engine kits was very low - one of the problems is the need to source a supply of replacement motors as Mashima are no longer available.

 

It looks like you need to break free of the Flatlands of Lincolnshire and make your way to the centre of the brewing industry ! Come to Burton upon Trent on Saturday 8th June as most of the 7mmNGA manufacturers and traders will be at the 40th Anniversary Exhibition.

https://7mmnga.org.uk/AGM.php

 

Good luck with your project

 

Mike

 

 

 

EDIT - Pete above beat me to it - I must type too slowly . . . . . . . 

 

.

 

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I've put the 7mm Exhibition in the diary and I'll try and get down.  I've a knee problem at the moment, which means I'm unable to drive, but it could well be doable by train, I'll investigate!  Sounds like a place that I need to visit

 

Thanks for the link to the wagons and locos.  I may be totally wrong here, and could be just being very picky, but does that picture of the Mercian kit of Palmerston look right?  The boiler length looks a bit stumpy somehow.  I'll have to dig my photos out and have a look.  Im over at the FR in June for the gala, so I hopefully I shall be able to take no end of detailing images of the locos, wagons and stock!

 

I have emailed Paul at EDM to enquire on the off chance if any of the Double Fairlie kits were still available, as they look superb, just waiting on the response.  Is the problem that the kit was designed around a Mashima and with those going out of production its difficult to fit another motor - or is it that its proving problematic trying to find another motor of the same size?  Thinking about it, I have a couple of Mashima motors here that I purchased for an O gauge etched brass kit.  If its a case of getting the Fairlie kit without the motor, I wonder if they would be a similar fit - do you know what number the Mashima motor was?

 

Rich

[jc2001]

@MarshLane I'll be at Burton helping Paul Holmes operate Hulme End (which is a correctly modelled 2ft 6ins) so please say hello. There is far less slop in the gauge with O14 so I did use gauge widening on some of my sharper curves more for the longer wheelbase locos. I also use gauge widening within sharper turnouts but keeping the crossing and switch ends exactly to gauge - again for the larger locos. The O14 group is very quiet but tends to burst into life when an interesting modelling topic arises - this is just the thing!

 

John

[Mike Bellamy]

3 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

do you know what number the Mashima motor was?

 

 

 

Sorry no - and you need two as both bogies are powered - best wait for Paul to respond. As I say to many of his customers, I'll take the money but I don't answer questions - and that's why there's often a queue of people waiting to talk to him ! !

 

Sorry to hear about the knee problem - if you check Google maps, the Town Hall is very close to the Station (and for anyone coming by car, don't follow the signs for the town centre as the Town Hall isn't in the centre !!)

 

If you are looking for a show even nearer to a station, it's my local Derby show this weekend at the Roundhouse !

 

Mike

[MarshLane]

4 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

Sorry no - and you need two as both bogies are powered - best wait for Paul to respond. As I say to many of his customers, I'll take the money but I don't answer questions - and that's why there's often a queue of people waiting to talk to him ! !

 

Sorry to hear about the knee problem - if you check Google maps, the Town Hall is very close to the Station (and for anyone coming by car, don't follow the signs for the town centre as the Town Hall isn't in the centre !!)

 

If you are looking for a show even nearer to a station, it's my local Derby show this weekend at the Roundhouse !

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike,

I'll wait on Paul - no problem!  Might give him a call tomorrow, as its over a week since I emailed.  I think Burton is definitely doable, this weekend is a no-go unfortunately, or id have had a wander! Always wanted to see what they have done to the inside of the Roundhouse.

 

Does anyone know if there is a 14mm scale suitable link and hook coupling available? I don't think I have come across anything like that yet.  We are wondering if we can could the slate wagons in rakes of three or four so that only the outers have chopper couplings while the inners are chain.  It would make the take up the slack more obvious when starting a train off too.

Rich

[Dava]

You can use the 009-type couplers by Greenwich [2 sizes available, very unobtrusive] or ex-Paul Windle from A1 Models.

 

Dava

[NeilHB]

As Mike has mentioned above, the 7mmNGA Exhibition is well worth getting to (though I would say that as the organiser!). EDM, Port Wynnstay and Mercian will all be there - along with a host of other 7mm scale suppliers, including association goods etc. 

 

We've also two very lovely 0-14 layouts this year - Bunny Mine and Tony’s Forest - so a very good excuse for you to come along and see them in action.

 

 I know that Paul (EDM) has been busy playing trains on the Ffestiniog this week, hence the lack of responses. It’s well worth signing up to Paul’s newsletter - it’ll usually tell you when he is/isn’t around. 

[MarshLane]

Afternoon all,

I thought id better post a quick update on where we are!  After JC suggested posting on the O14 email group, I did.  For those of you that are on there as well, will know that moved the conversation forward a bit, but for those of you that are not ... I'll give an overview here.

 

We established that Paul at EDM can supply curly spoked wheels from Alan Gibson (I may try Alan direct as I am still struggling to get hold of Paul by phone or email, but he may just be busy).  2 and 3-ton slate wagon etched kits are available from the 7mmNGA Society, and while I am tempted to tried these, as previously commented, I also want to get some CAD experience designing stock which is not commercially available, so using the drawings from NG&I Review 83 I'm currently creating the CADs for iron 2-ton slate wagons, to be followed by the wooden variety.  The plan is to not only create these as an etch, but also to look at 3D printing, given the success that @Quarryscapes of this parish has had in 16mm.  Where possible, we will use kits or the like to save time, but having some CAD knowledge under my belt, its the experience of creating the artwork from CADs for etching that I want to acquire.

 

Paul Holmes who created the lovely 009 Borth-y-gest and O14 Dinas 1869 layouts has commented that Port Wynnstay do a couple of different quarryman's coaches as do Worsley Works.  Paul used S Gauge Society rail on Dinas but at the time this was Code 95 bullhead, and the society (which only sells to members) has now moved to Code 87.  I am currently researching whether its better to go Code 87 from them, or slightly heavier Code 100 from Slaters.

 

The S Gauge Society chairs were also recommended, but that will obviously depend on the rail.  Given the discussion that has been had about FR rail chairs, it may be that I look to create something specific for the layout - one chap who has a collection of the real thing has offered to make them available for viewing, so that could well be an option, especially for accuracy.  Although we have established that there is still some Bullhead rail in the siding behind the platform at Dduallt. Part of the issue is that the FR has traditionally buried most of the sleepers and chairs in ballast, so hence any fine detail is lost!

 

Where are we now?

So from what was an initial enquiry and find out a bit of info, things have moved on quite a way and quite quickly.  My time is going to be limited for the next 2-3 weeks, but once that is over I am hoping to be able to proceed forward.  The aim is not to rush, but to take our time and achieve something we are proud of, happy with, and that is as accurate as we can make it.

 

As mentioned above, I am working on the CAD design for the 2-ton FR slate wagon.  Once this has been completed, then we'll establish where we go next.  I need to identity what length of axles to use for O14 gauge, and suitable wheels/bearings. Layout wise, my intention is to create a small 2' x 1' two track diorama, primarily as a photo plank, but also to give us some 14mm gauge track and pointwork to test the wagons on.  It will also provide the test bed for the trackwork ahead of the main layout!  

 

I will keep rmWeb readers up to date, either through a thread or blog on here.

 

Finally, a bit thanks to everyone for their help and encouragement.  We have some interesting things to explore and try, some of which should be easier to implement on items designed ourselves, that will hopefully provide a fascinating end layout, in the fullness of time!

Rich

Edited May 11, 2019 by MarshLane

[MarshLane]

Evening all,

Well I look the various comments on board and looked towards the North Wales Narrow Gauge System (which connected with the FR at Porthmadog) for a freight vehicle with which to start with.  This followed a comment from Peter Tarver over on the O14 Groups.io group, who said: "There are several NWNG slate waggons which made it into WHR days which arent available as far as I'm aware.  There are also the 4 wheel RAF wagons in the modern (though now heritage in their own right) fleet - but if looking pre preservation this wouldn't be of interest.  There is a drawing of one of the NWNG variants in the Welsh Highland Heritage Journal no 74.  These are available online open access 2 years after publication: https://www.welshhighlandheritage.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHH-No-74.pdf"

 

There is a superb photographer from the Gloucester Carriage and Wagon Co. in that publication that shows a wooden NWNGR slate vehicle ex-works.  Now what follows is, I stress, a first iteration.  I have not spent long on this - about 90 minutes tonight, there's a lot of detailing would need doing, and I am not happy with a few things, specifically the body I feel is too tall, the thickness of the base and the axle boxes aren't right yet, plus I need to try and establish things like wheel dimension.  Its slightly difficult as there are no dimensions anywhere to go off.  I suppose I really need to find out if the GC&WCo archives still exist, and if so where they are.  That may produce a drawing, but something says such level of documentation for a narrow gauge vehicle may be difficult to come by.

 

I have based this design loosely on the length/width dimensions of an FR vehicle - its difficult to tell sizes from a photograph, as too much is open to interpretation, but they 'looked' a similar kind of size.  Does anyone have any idea how deep (in real figures) the wooden frame would have been?  Anyway, I'd appreciate any comments/feedback.  More than happy to take constructive criticism on board, as I believe thats the only way that things improve.  

 

 

 

 

 

Once I'm happy with the design, the aim is to get it 3D printed and see what emerges.  Also need to see if I can acquire the correct type of spoked wheels.

Rich

[Phil Traxson]

On 16/05/2019 at 23:22, MarshLane said:

 Also need to see if I can acquire the correct type of spoked wheels.

Rich

Which type of wheel is it. If it is the ribbed disc with holes between the ribs I carry them in stock, produced by Colin at Alan Gibson for me. I have them supplied on both standard 26 mm. long and also 24.5 mm long axles and  can also supply them with plain end axles (actually Gibson 4 mm. scale inside bearing tender axles) for inside bearing wagons. I do an inside bearing wagon chassis in 2 different lengths as well, designed to be built as either 16.5 mm or 14 mm gauge.  I would think that your best bet would be to seek me out at Burton if you intend being there and discuss it with me. 

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models

Edited May 20, 2019 by Phil Traxson
more information

[MarshLane]

Phil,
Sorry for the delayed reply - I have been away for the past week.  Thanks for that, yes I am 'hoping' to be at Burton, so will endeavour to seek you out and have a chat!

 

Rich

[Phil Traxson]

13 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Phil,
Sorry for the delayed reply - I have been away for the past week.  Thanks for that, yes I am 'hoping' to be at Burton, so will endeavour to seek you out and have a chat!

 

Rich

 

As I have both my trade stand and my layout there, both called Port Wynnstay just to confuse things,  I should be behind one or the other most of the time, white hair and beard and (if i remember it) a badge with my name on it should help identification.

 

Phil T.

[pauliebanger]

Hey Rich,

 

I know it's a long way off, but I have a recording of my trip on the Gravity Train which would make an interesting 'no loco' sound project you could use with the slate wagons until you have a loco.

 

Mind you, you'll need a very long layout. LOL

 

I also have recordings of Manning Wardle, Lyd, (full sound project almost completed)  a double Fairly, DLG and three Garratts on the WHR.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, pauliebanger said:

Hey Rich,

 

I know it's a long way off, but I have a recording of my trip on the Gravity Train which would make an interesting 'no loco' sound project you could use with the slate wagons until you have a loco.

 

Mind you, you'll need a very long layout. LOL

 

I also have recordings of Manning Wardle, Lyd, (full sound project almost completed)  a double Fairly, DLG and three Garratts on the WHR.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul,

Thats really useful I knew you'd mentioned that you had several, did you also mention one or more of the quarry hunslets in the past or am I imagining things?  

 

A sound profile Gravity Train could be very interesting! Is it complete with manually blown horns?   We need to finally sort out coffee out soon too mate!

 

Rich

[pauliebanger]

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, I've recorded a couple of quarry Hunslets.

 

I was working with the double Fairly recordings today, that's what prompted me to visit the Narrow Gauge section. Justa coincidence that I camw across active threads with FR locos and wagons mentioned.

 

The gravity train had a chap with a flat cap and a bugle in charge of a small gang of brakesmen who clambered over loaded slate wagons applying brakes as directed by the bugler, so of course it will include these sounds.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[MarshLane]

Guys,

Got to have a good chat with Paul at EDM about Double Fairlie locos and the like, so while I've been quiet on this thread recently (partly through being in Germany for a week!), things are slowly moving forwards.  I think I have the premise of how this is going to turn out now, and a visit to Burton is definitely on the cards for next week and a chat with Phil.  Im over at the WHR gala as well, so hoping I might be able to get a close look at some slate wagons for photographs

 

Rich

Edited June 1, 2019 by MarshLane