First cut-and-shut attempt

[TangoOscarMike]

Good Evening - Tom here - avid lurker, occasional poster.

 

This story begins with my first attempt at 3D printing. I made seats for one of my (almost 40 year old) Hornby 4 wheel coaches.

 

 

This was absurd for two reasons, one of which is obvious to everyone. There is far, far more detail than could possibly be visible through the tiny windows.

 

The second reason it's absurd is that I didn't leave enough clearance between the partitions and the sides. When I tried to put the roof on, I got it jammed - stuck half way on. Bother.

 

The tragic result has been sitting in a box for many months, and a while ago I decided that I would not get the roof off again without cutting somewhere. I can't separate the glazing from the roof, because it isn't accessible all the way along. So I'll probably have to cut off part of an end compartment. Which gives me an opportunity to try cutting and shutting for the first time.

 

Inspired by the work of Nile ( https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82968-niles-mostly-freelance-bodging-bench-cattle-wagons/page-20&do=findComment&comment=2313848 ) and others, I've decided to combine two 4-wheel coaches into one 6-wheel / 5-compartment coach. I've started by buying some brass (sheet/strip/channel) and cutting out some pieces.

 

 

After another disgraceful episode of the "Tom Can't Solder for Toffee Chronicles", I have the beginnings of a chassis:

 

 

And I've bought an Annie and a Clarabel from an online vendor. I lied to myself, saying that one was a spare. But of course I'm going to cut them both up, and preserve my childhood coach for my second attempt!

 

Cheers

Tom

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[Gibbo675]

Hi Tom,

 

Here are the result of some Hornby four wheeled coach cut and shuts that ended up as properly bogied versions of Annie and Clarabel coaches for my nephews. The underframes are heavily chopped Mk1 underframes rather than the six wheeled type that you are going for.

 

 

Gibbo.

 

 

[TangoOscarMike]

They look like Annie and Clarabel.

 

There are far worse problems in the world, so I'm not going to start a campaign or anything. But it's a pity that Hornby didn't put a little more effort into these two.

 

Tom

[GeraldH]

13 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

They look like Annie and Clarabel.

 

There are far worse problems in the world, so I'm not going to start a campaign or anything. But it's a pity that Hornby didn't put a little more effort into these two.

 

Tom

It's a shame that Hornby didn't make a matching 4 wheel brake coach.

[TangoOscarMike]

So, I've removed the coach ends to produce Ann and Clarib, so that I may merge them into Annabelle. I've kept both faces, which was perhaps a little ghoulish of me.

 

Instead of sawing I used a craft knife and made many, many tedious cuts along the sides of the doors, in order to minimise the amount of material lost. I tidied the cut ends with very light sanding, and I'm pretty pleased with the results. There is a hairsbreadth gap on one side, and I'm debating whether or not to fill it. I might be able to rely on the glue to fill the gap.

 

I'm also trying to decide whether or not to remove the paint. I've painted straight over this finish in the past, without any problems. But maybe painting on clean plastic would be better, and maybe this applies to gluing too.

 

I would welcome any advice.

 

Cheers

Tom

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[LNWR18901910]

On 08/05/2019 at 00:20, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

Here are the result of some Hornby four wheeled coach cut and shuts that ended up as properly bogied versions of Annie and Clarabel coaches for my nephews. The underframes are heavily chopped Mk1 underframes rather than the six wheeled type that you are going for.

 

 

Gibbo.

 

 

Nice models, mate! They look more dead-on to their RWS likenesses! Maybe a dab or Milliput could make their faces stand out, perhaps? Just a suggestion.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I remember my first attempt at cutting and shutting about 45 years ago. I wanted a Black 5 and none one had made one yet. So I thought the Hornby Princess looked like a likely candidate. It turned out quite well. Not upto modern engines, But it at least looked a bit like a black 5 to my 14 year old eyes. Any way then Hornby decided to release a black 5 and my very poor effort in comparison ended up in the spares box. Such is life. I wish I had kept hold of it but at that age it was just something else I did not want anymore.

[TangoOscarMike]

10 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I remember my first attempt at cutting and shutting about 45 years ago. I wanted a Black 5 and none one had made one yet. So I thought the Hornby Princess looked like a likely candidate. It turned out quite well. Not upto modern engines, But it at least looked a bit like a black 5 to my 14 year old eyes. Any way then Hornby decided to release a black 5 and my very poor effort in comparison ended up in the spares box. Such is life. I wish I had kept hold of it but at that age it was just something else I did not want anymore.

 

I'm glad it worked out for you back then, even if only temporarily. I had lots of good ideas, but I rarely attempted them, and what I did often ended badly.

 

As an adult (able to cut straight lines and buy my own brass) I'm mainly fulfilling the daydreams of my 11/12/13/14 year-old self.

 

[Gibbo675]

On 09/05/2019 at 18:49, TangoOscarMike said:

There is a hairsbreadth gap on one side, and I'm debating whether or not to fill it. I might be able to rely on the glue to fill the gap.

I would welcome any advice.

 

Cheers

Tom

Hi Tom,

 

What I would do with your slight gap is to glue an appropriate sliver of .010" plasticard to one of the joint faces, you may be able to gauge the thickness in the way a feeler gauge is used. Once cured pare down to the required profile with a scalpel blade and then, If necessary, sand back to size to achieve the required fit,

 

Gibbo.

[TangoOscarMike]

I have a cunning plan.

 

In the long term I'm going to separate the glazing from the roofs. But before I do that I'm going to use one roof and its glazing to hold the two coach pieces together while the glue sets, thus:

 

 

Dry-fitted like this there is some play on both sides, but a little bit too much on the side facing the camera. So I'm going to follow Gibbo's suggestion for filling the gap. Then I'll put the two halves on a flat surface, weigh them down with coins (I have a teapot full of little coins - perhaps you have a jam jar) and glue them together, using the roof/glazing like this for alignment. Maybe I'll use tin foil to stop the glazing from getting stuck to the coach sides.

 

If I'm really lucky the join will be so good that it doesn't need reinforcement.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[LNWR18901910]

On 12/05/2019 at 16:24, TangoOscarMike said:

I have a cunning plan.

 

In the long term I'm going to separate the glazing from the roofs. But before I do that I'm going to use one roof and its glazing to hold the two coach pieces together while the glue sets, thus:

 

 

Dry-fitted like this there is some play on both sides, but a little bit too much on the side facing the camera. So I'm going to follow Gibbo's suggestion for filling the gap. Then I'll put the two halves on a flat surface, weigh them down with coins (I have a teapot full of little coins - perhaps you have a jam jar) and glue them together, using the roof/glazing like this for alignment. Maybe I'll use tin foil to stop the glazing from getting stuck to the coach sides.

 

If I'm really lucky the join will be so good that it doesn't need reinforcement.

 

What chassis would be needed for it - a small suburban coach chassis or a clerestory coach chassis?

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 08/05/2019 at 20:15, GeraldH said:

It's a shame that Hornby didn't make a matching 4 wheel brake coach.

 

Just paint over the windows of an end compartment in body colour and leave the door windows clear.

[TangoOscarMike]

17 hours ago, LNWR18901910 said:

What chassis would be needed for it - a small suburban coach chassis or a clerestory coach chassis?

 

I plan to use a Brassmasters Cleminson underframe ( http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/cleminson_underframe.htm ). Hopefully it won't prove too difficult for me. If I'm successful then my second attempt will be a brake coach on the same chassis.

 

I'm also considering making a slightly longer 6 compartment coach, and putting it on a pair of these:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/BTMNEZZJT/gwr-dean-6-4-quot-bogie-Hornby-fit

 

[TangoOscarMike]

9 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

Just paint over the windows of an end compartment in body colour and leave the door windows clear.

 

That would do to satisfy casual glances, and it could certainly help break up the uniformity of a train of these coaches.

 

There are plenty of suggestions on this forum (and elsewhere on the internet) for moving doors and windows around to make a brake compartment. I want to make sure that the guard can see in both directions, so when I get round to this I'll be adding duckets and probably windows at one end. 3D printing may be involved.

 

[The Johnster]

On 11/05/2019 at 22:58, TangoOscarMike said:

 

I'm glad it worked out for you back then, even if only temporarily. I had lots of good ideas, but I rarely attempted them, and what I did often ended badly.

 

As an adult (able to cut straight lines and buy my own brass) I'm mainly fulfilling the daydreams of my 11/12/13/14 year-old self.

 

 

On 11/05/2019 at 12:10, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I remember my first attempt at cutting and shutting about 45 years ago. I wanted a Black 5 and none one had made one yet. So I thought the Hornby Princess looked like a likely candidate. It turned out quite well. Not upto modern engines, But it at least looked a bit like a black 5 to my 14 year old eyes. Any way then Hornby decided to release a black 5 and my very poor effort in comparison ended up in the spares box. Such is life. I wish I had kept hold of it but at that age it was just something else I did not want anymore.

IIRC there was an article about this conversion in the late lamented MRC.  I did it as well, and it looked as much like a Black 5 as it had a princess; ah, the foolishness of youth...

 

I had 3 Rovex Black Princesses, all Elizabeth and none with valve gear.  I did the poorest runner up in LMS livery as restored to use as a shed lurker with static Airfix construction kit valve gear, and, encouraged by my Black 5, the other one as a Jubilee in rather crude BR lined green, but this never really looked as good as the 5, not that I’m claiming that that looked good! It was all a bit rough and ready, typical of the knockabout of those days

[TangoOscarMike]

So, as suggested I filled the gap with thin plasticard, glued, trimmed then sanded until I was happy. The two halves are joined along the bottom (with the glazing to keep them aligned and the glue is drying now.

 

 

I kept glue off the top parts. When the bottom is set I'm going to glue the tops with a metal strip clamped in place to keep them aligned. I'm being a little fanatical about alignment, which is surely better than being sloppy.

 

 

[Corbs]

Tom - I really like your 3D printed coach interiors. Will you be putting them up on shapeways?

[Northmoor]

On 11/05/2019 at 22:58, TangoOscarMike said:

 

I'm glad it worked out for you back then, even if only temporarily. I had lots of good ideas, but I rarely attempted them, and what I did often ended badly.

 

As an adult (able to cut straight lines and buy my own brass) I'm mainly fulfilling the daydreams of my 11/12/13/14 year-old self.

 

This is exactly what I'm doing with my own cheapskate modelling.  I've already got all the old models, I'm just slowly getting around to actually doing some of the hacking/detailing/conversion jobs 30 years later.......

[The Johnster]

Doing a bit of cut and shut myself at the moment; an ancient Airfix B set being forced to resemble a Collett all third of sorts.  I've already got one minor regret, not zigzagging the cuts so as to follow a compartment divider line on the roof but a door line on the side, but it's too late now and I'll live with the thing, which is never going to be a scale model of anything real anyway.  

 

Your Annie and Clarabelle look the part.  For now, I am intending to fill my gap with Milliput, but if this is not to my satsifaction I'll break it apart again and use your plasticard sheet method.  For a brake vehicle I'd do a bit more than paint over windows; fill them with Milliput and fill the door gaps as well, don't forget to remove door handles and grab rails.  Some 4 and 6 wheel brake coaches had only a small guard's riding compartment, with the handbrake and his office, and very limited luggage/parcels space.

[TangoOscarMike]

On 22/05/2019 at 15:35, Corbs said:

Tom - I really like your 3D printed coach interiors. Will you be putting them up on shapeways?

Thank you Corbs! I was delighted with them, right up until the point where it went wrong! But I think the level of detail and the expense (of FUD) are not justified.

 

I have been mulling over producing a less-detailed version in WSF, and your interest might give me the extra impetus (although I'm juggling a few too many 00 3D printing projects just at the moment....).

 

I've also been mulling over an alternative. Maybe printed card cut-out-and-fold interiors would be easier to manage - certainly they would be cheaper - and thus more appropriate for these 4 wheelers. I'd be grateful for your opinion.

 

[TangoOscarMike]

So, some progress. Gluing the tops of the sides looked like this, with a strip of aluminium L-section to keep them aligned, and a piece of tin foil to keep the glue away from the clamps.

 

 

And this is the result. I'm pretty pleased with this, so I've emailed Brassmasters to ask them for two of their Cleminson underframe kits. While I'm waiting for that to run its course, I will have a go at the roof. I'll probably also tidy up the join a bit with milliput.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[TangoOscarMike]

So, there's an undercurrent of brake coach discussion in this thread. Processing everyone's inputs has led me to produce the following doodle:

 

 

The simplest brake coach conversion, using this, would be:

• Remove the glazing for the two windows of one end compartment (keeping the door glazing).
• Remove the beading around the last window and the last panel, and the oval beading above and below them.
• Glue in these duckets, pushing the inner protuberances into the window cavity for alignment.
• Blank the other window (turn it into a panel) with plasticard and milliput.
• Let somebody else worry about glazing for the duckets.
• Carefully, carefully remove the word THIRD from what is now the guard's door. Or leave it.

The same ducket could be used with other approaches (moving panels to put two doors side-by-side, for example) provided it always occupied the place of the last window and panel.

 

I'm going to tinker with the dimensions, then send the design off to Shapeways with another chunk of my children's inheritance.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[TangoOscarMike]

Here's a little bit of progress. I've cut the two roofs to fit. In fact, I removed a little bit too much, so (after I actually join them) there will be more filling than I intended.

 

There is also a discontinuity along the edge of the roof, presumably arising from asymmetry in the original models. Next time I will check the alignment all ways round before I start cutting.

 

 

I have just ordered two duckets from Shapeways, and hopefully my Cleminson underframe kits will be in the post soon.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[lightengine]

Will these be appearing at the Worthing MRC Tom?

[TangoOscarMike]

6 hours ago, lightengine said:

Will these be appearing at the Worthing MRC Tom?

No, I'd need to have a lot more to show for myself before I started bringing things to exhibitions (especially since I live in Germany).