TangoOscarMike Posted November 17, 2019 Author Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) This weekend I took a run-up and assembled a Brassmasters Cleminson underframe. It's not the best quality work, but it's not as bad as this picture makes it look: Apart from my eyes and hands, the main problem has been the Hornby wheels. I suspect that these underframes are not normally used with wheels that have such hugeous flanges. However, it all seems OK, though it will need some filing, adjustment and shims. And it seems to be OK (but at its limit) on my tight Fleischmann curves. This should give a rough idea of what I'm aiming for (and a clear idea that I shouldn't switch to a career in phtography). Cheers Tom Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike Restoring pictures 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 17, 2019 Author Share Posted November 17, 2019 I must also give some thought to springs and axleboxes. Since it's not supposed to represent a "real" Cleminson mechanism, I want to attach these directly to the solebars. I don't really know, but I suppose that options include: Fabricate them out of brass: nope - that's beyond my skill. Solder a whitemetal casting in place melt a whitemetal casting into a little puddle. Glue a whitemetal casting in place. Fabricate them out of plastic. Get them 3D printed. Although I was hoping for a completely metal chassis, 3D printing might give the best results - I could design something that would fit exactly. And as usual I would be grateful for any suggestions! Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 22 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said: This weekend I took a run-up and assembled a Brassmasters Cleminson underframe. It's not the best quality work, but it's not as bad as this picture makes it look: Apart from my eyes and hands, the main problem has been the Hornby wheels. I suspect that these underframes are not normally used with wheels that have such hugeous flanges. However, it all seems OK, though it will need some filing, adjustment and shims. And it seems to be OK (but at its limit) on my tight Fleischmann curves. This should give a rough idea of what I'm aiming for (and a clear idea that I shouldn't switch to a career in phtography). Cheers Tom I see you've updated your 0-4-0 tender engine - Looks nice as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, LNWR18901910 said: I see you've updated your 0-4-0 tender engine - Looks nice as well. Thank you. That's the penultimate design. The final design is nearly there! Edited November 18, 2019 by TangoOscarMike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 45 minutes ago, TangoOscarMike said: Thank you. That's the penultimate design. The final design is nearly there! Great! Are you also designing another 0-4-0 tender loco like the one I showed you via PM? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 19 hours ago, LNWR18901910 said: Great! Are you also designing another 0-4-0 tender loco like the one I showed you via PM? Yes indeed! But it's not quite ready for public posting yet. Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon4470 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 On 17/11/2019 at 23:07, TangoOscarMike said: I must also give some thought to springs and axleboxes. Since it's not supposed to represent a "real" Cleminson mechanism, I want to attach these directly to the solebars. I don't really know, but I suppose that options include: Fabricate them out of brass: nope - that's beyond my skill. Solder a whitemetal casting in place melt a whitemetal casting into a little puddle. Glue a whitemetal casting in place. Fabricate them out of plastic. Get them 3D printed. Although I was hoping for a completely metal chassis, 3D printing might give the best results - I could design something that would fit exactly. And as usual I would be grateful for any suggestions! Cheers Tom Tom As I don’t have the 3D cad skills, or a printer for that matter, I would attach white metal axle boxes. They have the advantage of adding some weight low down on the chassis as well. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Jon4470 said: As I don’t have the 3D cad skills, or a printer for that matter, I would attach white metal axle boxes. They have the advantage of adding some weight low down on the chassis as well. Thanks Jon. I'd like to pick your brains a little more, if that's OK. Firstly, is there any particular casting that you'd suggest? My internet search has led me here, but I'm sure there are other possibilities. Secondly, would you solder or glue the castings to the brass solebar? If I understand correctly, soldering is possible but it calls for quite a bit of skill because it's easy to melt the casting. As for 3D CAD, I use OpenSCAD, which isn't conventional CAD software but suits my way of working. And I don't have a 3D printer - I use Shapeways. They aren't cheap, but I find it a little magical that I can design something on the computer and receive it in the post a week later. Cheers Tom 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted November 20, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2019 Wizard Models (aka 51L) has a good range of axlebox-spring castings suitable for coaches. Their website isn't the easiest to use, so it may take a while to find them. All mine have been secured with superglue gel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon4470 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Hi Tom I agree with Nile...my first port of call would be wizard. In my experience delivery is very quick. As for attaching the axle boxes. They can be glued - superglue gel as suggested or 2 part epoxy Would both work. i would solder them, but that is personal preference only. To solder white metal to brass you need to tin the brass with 145degree solder and then attach with 70 degree solder. This really requires a temperature controlled soldering iron. You can use higher temperature solder to attach the white metal..... but that is where you run the risk of melted castings! (This is where the skill really kicks in) If I was you I’d glue them on this time. If you want to learn how to solder it is best to practice first....brass to brass, then white metal to white metal and finally white metal to brass. As for 3D cad and 3 D printing - they are on my list of skills to acquire. I too find it fascinating that an object can be printed. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 20, 2019 Author Share Posted November 20, 2019 Thank you both, Gentlemen. I confess that I could spend quite a while browsing through the Wizard Models website. But if I needed model railway parts for an emergency (cat stuck up a tree or somesuch) then I would find it a little maddening. Nevertheless, I found some castings that I liked (at an excellent price) and some pinpoint bearings to make it up to a sensible order. But then, alas, I told the website that I live in Germany and it quoted me a shipping price large enough to pay for a handcrafted full-size replica 6 wheel coach (I exaggerate a little). So I'll meditate a bit more. Perhaps I'll find something else on the website to make a bigger order. Or maybe I'll get the order sent to my parents. I'm toying with the idea of making my own whitemetal springs and axleboxes. I have some experience (from making toy knights and princesses) of making silicone moulds for casting metal. I could make a master out of plastic.... But the process is a terrible rigamarole, and I'm not always successful. Whatever else happens, I will take your advice and use glue. I have plenty of experience at being bad at soldering - I know my limits. This project is helping me to improve, but I don't want to run before I can walk. Thanks Tom 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Wizard ship abroad at cost. I don't know at what point in the checkout process that resolves itself, but the initial postage cost appears to be a worst case placeholder. You will know what you're paying before you part with card details. Failing that an email to Andrew will clarify matters. Alan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 Thanks Alan, I'll try again this evening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 IIRC Dart castings carry the old MJT range if you want another supplier. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 1, 2019 Author Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) A bit of progress with the underframe. I wanted to raise the height to match the Hornby 4 wheel coaches (although I know it would be better to lower the 4 wheelers). Also, I found the mechanism somewhat unreliable - especially the sideways movement of the centre W-iron unit - perhaps with time I will learn to assemble these more neatly. So I made this contrivance of plasticard to act as a separator and a smooth bearing surface for the moving parts. In position it looks like this: And with the rest of the underframe in place I get this: It works very well (although over time it might grind the plastic to dust). I can make it go around my tight curves with a gentle push. It's still a whisker lower than the 4 wheel coach, but if I try to raise it any higher the moving parts will be below the solebars. So I'm leaving it like this and moving on. Edited December 1, 2019 by TangoOscarMike Accepting responsibility for dodgy movement! 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 10, 2019 Author Share Posted December 10, 2019 I have come full circle with the couplings. Or maybe I'm going round in circles - it's hard to tell. I've removed the nasty prongs (visible in the last sets of pictures) and fashioned a NEM pocket out of brass. But instead of attaching it to the main chassis, as originally planned, I've attached it to one of the outer trucks (if that's the right term) of the Cleminson mechanism, so that it points round corners a little bit. There have been several false starts but I'm happy with the end result. I'm less happy that each botched attempt has damaged the truck a little bit more (the brakes are bent all over the place). Hopefully when I do the other truck it will all go much more smoothly. If anyone's interested I could post more details and dimensions of the parts. 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) I've linked the brake shoes with brass rod, as per instructions (leaving plenty of room - the brakes will never come anywhere near the wheels!). It was becoming rather urgent to immobilise the brakes because they were getting pretty chewed up and liable to fall off. So to further fix the outer brakes I added a brass rod which goes up and forwards (hopefully out of sight) and is soldered to the frame. The inner brakes are connected to a crude representation of brake gear made out of brass rod and surplus etch. I don't mind incorporating all this into the pivoting truck because it doesn't really represent a full-size Cleminson mechanism. In any case, when I have springs, axle-boxes and step-boards in place, this should all just contribute to a general impression of busyness underneath. Hopefully I've learned enough to make the modifications of the other truck go a bit more smoothly. Edited December 13, 2019 by TangoOscarMike business -> busyness 5 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedGemAlchemist Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 An ingenious way of making a chassis, Tom. Nicely done. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) In case anyone is considering repeating what I've done, I took some pictures while adding a NEM-esque (not fully standards compliant!) pocket to the other truck: The raw ingredients, from left to right: The Cleminson truck. A piece of 3mm x 4mm brass channel 6mm long. A piece of of the same brass channel, filed down to approximately 2mm x 4mm. This is 7mm long. A piece of 1.5mm x 4mm brass strip, several cm long. First, file down the end "wall" of the truck to a bit less than 3mm. Second, solder the 6mm length of channel about 0.5mm away from the end: I've got it a little wonky, but that doesn't matter. Third, attach the 7mm piece of channel near one end of the long strip. In my case it is 13mm from the end - I think the generic formula would be ((length-over-buffers - wheelbase) / 2)) - 18 All in mm, and don't take my word for it! I wanted a secure join without any solder inside the pocket, so I soldered a strap of leftover etch on both sides. Fourth, trim away the excess strap. Fifth, solder the beam-and-pocket onto the 6mm platform. I made a support by soldering some more of the brass channel onto a leftover "plate" of the photoetch brass. This allowed me to keep the plane of the beam parallel to the base of the truck. But I didn't take any pictures of the actual soldering arrangements (because I'm too ashamed!): Sixth and Seventh, trim away the excess beam (tidy with a file) and add a coupling. I have a big Hornby coupling on the other end, but since I couldn't find my bag of these things I've used a skinny Bachmann coupling here instead. It will give me an opportunity to compare them in use. The Hornby coupling was a perfect fit, but my pocket is slightly too narrow for the Bachmann one, so I shaved a tiny bit of plastic off both sides. Cheers Tom Edited December 18, 2019 by TangoOscarMike 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 On 17/12/2019 at 23:16, TangoOscarMike said: In case anyone is considering repeating what I've done, I took some pictures while adding a NEM-esque (not fully standards compliant!) pocket to the other truck: The raw ingredients, from left to right: The Cleminson truck. A piece of 3mm x 4mm brass channel 6mm long. A piece of of the same brass channel, filed down to approximately 2mm x 4mm. This is 7mm long. A piece of 1.5mm x 4mm brass strip, several cm long. First, file down the end "wall" of the truck to a bit less than 3mm. Second, solder the 6mm length of channel about 0.5mm away from the end: I've got it a little wonky, but that doesn't matter. Third, attach the 7mm piece of channel near one end of the long strip. In my case it is 13mm from the end - I think the generic formula would be ((length-over-buffers - wheelbase) / 2)) - 18 All in mm, and don't take my word for it! I wanted a secure join without any solder inside the pocket, so I soldered a strap of leftover etch on both sides. Fourth, trim away the excess strap. Fifth, solder the beam-and-pocket onto the 6mm platform. I made a support by soldering some more of the brass channel onto a leftover "plate" of the photoetch brass. This allowed me to keep the plane of the beam parallel to the base of the truck. But I didn't take any pictures of the actual soldering arrangements (because I'm too ashamed!): Sixth and Seventh, trim away the excess beam (tidy with a file) and add a coupling. I have a big Hornby coupling on the other end, but since I couldn't find my bag of these things I've used a skinny Bachmann coupling here instead. It will give me an opportunity to compare them in use. The Hornby coupling was a perfect fit, but my pocket is slightly too narrow for the Bachmann one, so I shaved a tiny bit of plastic off both sides. Cheers Tom That looks incredible and very good, Sir! I've read something similar in a magazine and they have an article that tells you how to do it. Perhaps I should try it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 21, 2019 Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 On 19/12/2019 at 23:01, LNWR18901910 said: That looks incredible and very good, Sir! I've read something similar in a magazine and they have an article that tells you how to do it. Perhaps I should try it. Thank you! I have lots of experience at soldering electronics badly, but this is the first time I've tried to construct something by soldering metal. It's been very difficult, but at the same time surprisingly successful. The main lessons learned are things I already knew: metal must be clean before soldering, and arrangements must be made to hold the parts in position. The Brassmasters kit went together much more easily than I expected, although a few of the holes were a little too small and had to be drilled out. Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 27, 2019 Author Share Posted December 27, 2019 I've added brake details to the other truck and to the central one, throroughly immobilising the delicate breakable parts. I must put some track on the living room floor and take it for a test run before I go much further. I don't yet have a layout, and in any case track clipped together on the living room floor is the very essence of Christmas, as far as I'm concerned! Meanwhile, I took your advice (I mean youse's advice, y'all's advice) and ordered these Axleboxes/Springs from Wizard models. These arrived rather quickly (and with the shipping cost adjusted down to something sensible), just when I was thinking the project would have to go on-hold. They are awfully small and delicate. And at the correct-ish height the J-hangers only just touch the solebars. So I am going to fashion brackets of some sort out of brass. I'm just off to the model shop now to get material for this and for step boards. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted December 27, 2019 Author Share Posted December 27, 2019 Meanwhile (thinking I would have to wait for the Axleboxes) I made a start on the next experiment. I've chopped out parts of opposite sides of Clarabel, with the intention of swapping them round. This should produce a coach that has one passenger compartment, and one guard/luggage compartment with double doors. I've taken the cuts well into the floor in order to (a) reduce the amount of reconstruction required and (b) produce a good strong join. We'll see. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted January 12, 2020 Author Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) Brackets soldered in place for the springs/axleboxes. At this point I'm concentrating on getting them securely attached. Making them look good is a lower priority. Also shown - four brackets for fitting a step, and the step itself. The glue is just drying on a wooden jig, and the plan of action is: Clamp the step and chassis in their planned relative positions. Solder the brackets on. Watch in dismay as I release the clamps and the whole thing twists into a Möbius strip. File recesses in the step as appropriate to accomodate the axleboxes. We'll see. Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike Restoring pictures 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoOscarMike Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) A little bit more progress. The steps are soldered securely into place. Although some of the supports are a little wonky, the steps themselves are straight and true. I'm looking forward to the summer for many reasons. Among other things, I will be able to do a bit of modelling after work, then take pictures outside in natural light. Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike Restoring pictures 6 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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