First cut-and-shut attempt

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 09/09/2019 at 19:20, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

I like the way that the ducket changes the look of the coach in a very effective manner, would it be possible to do use the same ducket on a van version with only doors and no windows ?

 

Gibbo.

 

Don't forget you can chop up Tri-ang/Hornby clerestory coaches or Ratio coach sides to whatever your heart desires (or whatever you can make up from the bits).

[TangoOscarMike]

On 09/09/2019 at 20:20, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

I like the way that the ducket changes the look of the coach in a very effective manner, would it be possible to do use the same ducket on a van version with only doors and no windows ?

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo - I'm slow to answer because I've been away again.

 

I have two pairs of duckets, and with the second pair (and another coach, of course) I'm thinking of chopping out a section on each side as shown here. If I swap these cut out sections over, that will give me a coach with a single passenger compartment, and a guard/luggage section with double doors occupying two thirds of the coach.

I might also do this to the on-going 6-wheeler.

 

With further butchering of the coach sides (converting more windows to panels, maybe filling in the grooves either side of a door) I'm sure that a van version would be feasible.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[TangoOscarMike]

On 11/09/2019 at 09:49, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

Don't forget you can chop up Tri-ang/Hornby clerestory coaches or Ratio coach sides to whatever your heart desires (or whatever you can make up from the bits).

 

Yes.

 

My main motivation is that I really like these coaches (in spite of the fact that they're a little toy-like), but I don't like the fact that there's no variety. Not to mention the danger to the passengers.

 

So, I want a guard coach that matches the off-the-shelf coach. And above all I want the modification to be easy.

 

But you're right. There is plenty of other raw material for this sort of thing.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

[Gibbo675]

45 minutes ago, TangoOscarMike said:

Hi Gibbo - I'm slow to answer because I've been away again.

 

I have two pairs of duckets, and with the second pair (and another coach, of course) I'm thinking of chopping out a section on each side as shown here. If I swap these cut out sections over, that will give me a coach with a single passenger compartment, and a guard/luggage section with double doors occupying two thirds of the coach.

I might also do this to the on-going 6-wheeler.

 

With further butchering of the coach sides (converting more windows to panels, maybe filling in the gooves either side of a door) I'm sure that a van version would be feasible.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

 

I like the thinking,

 

Gibbo.

[TangoOscarMike]

So, I'm still stumbling forward with the ducket project. This is what it looks like with the brown and cream paint touched up.

 

 

Could be better, could be worse.

 

In order to get the roof/glazing on I had to cut away the two windows. And this is what it looks like in context.

 

 

This is more or less working out as intended. And now I must do the other side.

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[TangoOscarMike]

Meanwhile the 6 wheel coach is inching along. I'm going to use the same painting technique (as for the brake coach), and I've sloshed a couple of coats on the outside.

 

I've also put in dividers between the compartments. I'm not going to bother with a detailed interior, but I want to make sure that nobody can look into one compartment and out through another. Having learned from past lessons, I've left plenty of clearance for the glazing between the partitions and the sides.

 

I will paint the whole interior with the same brown as the exterior.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[TangoOscarMike]

I've put a bit more paint on the outside, and completely painted the inside. It isn't perfect, but I'm moving on anyway.

 

I don't know how you manage these things, but I usually reach the point where I decide that I can't improve it any further without an unacceptable investment of time and effort.

 

So I've sprayed a thin coat of varnish for protection, and next I'm going to try the masking / dry-brushing / retouching technique that I used for the brake coach. I hope that the wobbliest parts of the painting will be concealed by the gold beading.

 

The join is fairly well concealed. I'm happy about that.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by TangoOscarMike
3rd sentence was gibberish!

[Gibbo675]

On 05/10/2019 at 22:32, TangoOscarMike said:

I've put a bit more paint on the outside, and completely painted the inside. It isn't perfect, but I'm moving on anyway.

 

I don't know how you manage these things, but I usually reach the point where I decide that I can't improve it any further without an unacceptable investment of time and effort.

 

So I've sprayed a thin coat of varnish for protection, and next I'm going to try the masking / dry-brushing / retouching technique that I used for the brake coach. I hope that the wobbliest parts of the painting will be concealed by the gold beading.

 

The join is fairly well concealed. I'm happy about that.

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

Your coach body has good proportion, I'm sure it will be fine. Don't do what I do and over think it.

 

Gibbo.

[TangoOscarMike]

12 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

Your coach body has good proportion, I'm sure it will be fine. Don't do what I do and over think it.

 

Gibbo.

 

I overthink everything! Progress is only made when I disconnect the thinking from the doing!

 

[TangoOscarMike]

So, Project Genesis notwithstanding, I'm cracking on. Painting of the body is more or less complete, using the base-coats / dry-brush / touch-up technique that I used for the brake coach. I'm satisfied with the result, although I'll probably paint the end rails and steps, crude though they are.

[TangoOscarMike]

.... and I've run into a bit of a problem. I'd be grateful for advice.

 

My plan was (is) to use the attached glazing to clip the roof onto the body, just as the original 4-wheeler does. A few months ago, when I glued the roof parts together, this was looking rather promising.

 

But in the intervening time the roof has warped a little, such that the glazing sides are closer at the bottom than they are at the top. This means that they no longer fit, and they won't hold the roof on properly.

 

 

It's not really that clear from this picture.

 

I suppose that this is the result of long-term negotiations between the glue and the plastic.

 

I think I have two choices:

 

1. Detach the glazing from the roof, glue the pieces into place when the time comes.
2. Force the sides apart with wooden blocks and wedges, then use hot water to encourage the plastic to stay in the shape I want.

Option 2 would give me the outcome I want, but it could go wrong in disastrous ways (I know from experience not to use a heat gun for this sort of caper).

 

I would be grateful for opinions, advice and recommendations. And if anyone thinks the hot water approach is workable, then I'd like to know suitable temperature ranges (is boiling too hot?), thermal regulation techniques, etc.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Tom

 

[Jon4470]

Hi Tom

 

I think that my approach, if faced with this problem, would be to separate the glazing from the roof and glue it to the sides. I’d then arrange the roof to be an interference fit at each end - so that it was held in place.

 

Jon

[TangoOscarMike]

In the end, I will probably take Jon's advice (thank you Jon).

 

But before that there will be an extended period of prevarication, because that's what I do best. So I'm putting the body to one side.

 

Which means that I have to stop prevaricating about the chassis. Before I assemble the Brassmasters Cleminson underframe I have to choose a wheelbase, and before I do that I have to choose a coupling arrangement, to make sure that I don't end up fouling the wheels with the couplings.

 

I've decided to go with the big Bachmann couplings, and I've added two vertical rods (brass pins) to support them. I will add, in due course, a threaded rod in the middle, to allow me to fix them at the correct height.

 

 

They are terribly wonky, and there will be bending. This bodes ill for the underframe, which must be soldered together with skill and delicacy, and not by an ape. But there's no turning back now.

 

 

Clearly they're too long. I will cut off the surplus later.

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[Poor Old Bruce]

For those of you who would like to go a bit further with your Hornby four-wheelers, this is what I have done with some of mine.

 

The first step is to change the chassis for one from a track-cleaning coach. They have the buffers the correct height above rail level.

 

If you take the roof off and look at the coach side, there is a step in the moulding above the panelling, about 1mm from the top. This step will act as a guide for a scalpel blade or craft knife to cut that top strip off. Start with light passes of the blade at first until you have a deep enough cut to ensure it doesn’t stray off line.

 

You will then need a smooth sided tin about four inches diameter and at least as long as the coach body - It has to be metal to be able to withstand boiling water (read on). I have an old ‘Smash’ powdered potato tin but you may be able to find something like a money box or similar in you local pound shop. Use the end of the tin to mark the end of the coach with a scriber or blade and cut the coach end to the lower profile.

 

Take a piece of plastic card (I think I used 20thou - 0.5mm) a bit bigger than the roof size and tape it as firmly as you can to the outside of the tin and dunk it in a frying pan of boiling water (younger modellers may need adult permission and supervision for this bit). When the plastic card is heated (it should take less than 20 seconds) remove and pour cold water on it. When cold, remove the masking tape and you should then have a new curved piece of plastic for the coach roof.

 

Make some partitions for the coach compartments and glue in place, then cut the windows off the old roof and glue those too in place. If you want to detail the compartment interiors, that’s up to you but you may find it difficult to see afterwards. You may also wish to add your own details to the coach ends.

 

Trim the roof to size and glue in place, adding lamps and ventilators to taste.

 

The first photo shows, from left to right: a cut down coach, an original coach on a lower chassis, an original coach on an original chassis and another cut down coach. The second shows one fitted with roof details and the third shows my version of a brake-end coach which just uses pieces of white track-cleaner glazing similar to the colour of the panelling.

 

 

 

[Gibbo675]

On 04/11/2019 at 09:25, Poor Old Bruce said:

For those of you who would like to go a bit further with your Hornby four-wheelers, this is what I have done with some of mine.

 

The first step is to change the chassis for one from a track-cleaning coach. They have the buffers the correct height above rail level.

 

If you take the roof off and look at the coach side, there is a step in the moulding above the panelling, about 1mm from the top. This step will act as a guide for a scalpel blade or craft knife to cut that top strip off. Start with light passes of the blade at first until you have a deep enough cut to ensure it doesn’t stray off line.

 

You will then need a smooth sided tin about four inches diameter and at least as long as the coach body - It has to be metal to be able to withstand boiling water (read on). I have an old ‘Smash’ powdered potato tin but you may be able to find something like a money box or similar in you local pound shop. Use the end of the tin to mark the end of the coach with a scriber or blade and cut the coach end to the lower profile.

 

Take a piece of plastic card (I think I used 20thou - 0.5mm) a bit bigger than the roof size and tape it as firmly as you can to the outside of the tin and dunk it in a frying pan of boiling water (younger modellers may need adult permission and supervision for this bit). When the plastic card is heated (it should take less than 20 seconds) remove and pour cold water on it. When cold, remove the masking tape and you should then have a new curved piece of plastic for the coach roof.

 

Make some partitions for the coach compartments and glue in place, then cut the windows off the old roof and glue those too in place. If you want to detail the compartment interiors, that’s up to you but you may find it difficult to see afterwards. You may also wish to add your own details to the coach ends.

 

Trim the roof to size and glue in place, adding lamps and ventilators to taste.

 

The first photo shows, from left to right: a cut down coach, an original coach on a lower chassis, an original coach on an original chassis and another cut down coach. The second shows one fitted with roof details and the third shows my version of a brake-end coach which just uses pieces of white track-cleaner glazing similar to the colour of the panelling.

 

 

 

Hi Bruce,

 

Your modification makes quite a difference and I like the arc roof look that the coaches now have. A good way to make curved roofs is to use two .010" that are glued together over a former, once cured it will hold its shape.

 

Gibbo.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Gibbo675
Spelling

[TangoOscarMike]

Hi Bruce. I like what you've done, especially the roof seen from above.

 

There really is ample plastic to trim away above the top row of panels.

 

I've been tempted to reduce the height, but I decided not to because of the toy versus model balancing act. I want a 6 wheel coach that will fit in with unmodified 4 wheelers for the sake of my (long lost) ten-year-old self.

 

Also, it's already quite a bit of work.....!

 

The ordinary chassis is easier to come by than the track-cleaning one. So:

I wonder if the buffer height could be lowered by moving the wheels up in the ordinary chassis. Fill the holes (melt some plastic into them?) drill new holes (easier said than done), maybe fit metal bearings. I suppose there could be trouble with the height of the coupling, and the running boards would be rather close to the track.

 

Perhaps the simplest thing would be to add a new buffer beam and literally lower just the buffers and nothing else.

 

If I push the boat out on detailing, then I might add proper steps and rails at the end, as Nile does, for example. I think it's a beautiful finishing touch.

 

[TangoOscarMike]

And now I'd be grateful for some more advice - I need to choose a wheelbase.

 

A short wheelbase is desirable because:

• As already mentioned, I don't want the underframe and the couplings to interfere with each other. Actually, I think there's no danger of that.
• The shorter the wheelbase, the tighter the curve that can be managed.

 

I have some Fleischmann H0 curves with a radius even tighter than Hornby's smallest. I won't insist on a coach that can go round these curves, but it would be nice.

 

So, looking at my trusty Furness railway book (thank you Gibbo for pointing that out!) and a few diagrams on-line, I've done a little survey of length/wheelbase ratios for 6-wheel coaches. My coach is just over 35' in length. For this length, I reckon that a 23' wheelbase is at the short end of the spectrum, but not ridiculously short. And it's a prime number. It would look something like this:

 

 

It might be hard to tell with only naked, flangeless wheels in my sketch. But does that look sane to you?

 

I might do some more calculations and find out exactly what radii the Cleminson underframe can manage for a given wheelbase (given the constraints of my solebars). But more likely I'll just pick a wheelbase and see what happens - I'd like to keep this project to under a year.

 

Thanks in advance!

Tom

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TangoOscarMike
Restoring pictures

[The Johnster]

Look ok to me, but the further out you can move the outer axles the better.  This will be a compromise dictated by your curvature. 

 

With regard to wheelbase on a long rigid framed vehicle, as well as getting it around curves you need to consider couplings and buffers.  Because of the extended end swing, such vehicles had large diameter buffers in reality, but longer buffer housings, which increase your chance of buffer lock.  This can be countered by the positioning of the couplings, but this is a balancing act and if overdone the space between the buffers on straight track becomes excessive; passenger stock should have the screw couplings tightened so that the buffer faces 'kiss' on straight track (2 threads from the bottle) (ok, I know its a single helical thread but you know what I mean).  This prevents buffing up and snatching, which is dangerous for the passengers,

 

This means that the couplings need to be able to swing on sharp curvature as well, and the normal method of mounting to the floor of the vehicle may not be sufficient; I have a Hornby LNER 'long' CCT which gives problems on my tightest curvature (3rd radius).  The solution is probably a bar with the coupling mounted to one end, pivoted as far behind the buffer beam as practicable, and you will probably need a crossbar wire for this to rest on to prevent it drooping as close as practicable behind the buffer beam, but of course this is complicated by possible fouling on other underframe detail.  I'd suggest putting the pivots for the bars close to the compartment dividers between the 2nd and middle compartments, or at any rate close to a compartment divider, where it can be hidden by seating should it be visible through the windows.  8BA bolt with nut and washers glued in place to allow free pivoting.

 

I've assumed your layout is flat, but if there are any changes in level, especially abrupt ones, that's a whole nother can of wriggly things.  Now you'll have to introduce some form of vertical play in the couplings as well, and if you've got a gradient that starts on a sharp curve...  Vertical play in a bar designed to provide horizantal play at a point where it is going to foul on the bottom of the buffer beam will need a downward crank in the bar beneath the buffer beam, which will have to be very carefully positioned and very difficult to hide.  NEM couplers (assuming that's what you use) have lateral play but not vertical, and may be 'beyond their design parameters' in this case.  In short, long rigid vehicles are a PITA, or challenge as my ex-boss, who'd been on the management b*llsh*t course, would have put it.

 

The compartment spacing suggests a 2nd class coach, or one downgraded from 1st to 2nd depending on period.  3rd class were crammed in as tight as you could pack 'em, which may explain the population explosion of the period...

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In short, long rigid vehicles are a PITA, or challenge as my ex-boss, who'd been on the management b*llsh*t course, would have put it.

 

The best response I ever heard to that "no problems, only opportunities" mantra was, "Cdr Jim Lovell of Apollo 13 didn't say, Houston we have a ******* opportunity, did he?".

[TangoOscarMike]

The Johnster: thank you for your detailed analysis! I was sort of dimly aware that there is more to this than just getting round curves. It seems obvious now - if I make the wheelbase short to go round tight curves then the penalty is that the ends, and hence the couplings, have big sideways excursions on those curves.

 

In the end I will probably just go with a 23' wheelbase (or some other number) plus fixed couplings, and see how it goes. As for my layout - at the moment it only exists in my mind, but I don't actually intend for it to have tight curves. And no gradients: instead I plan to have flat track with the terrain rising above it and dropping below it. My goal is to have nothing (except the station) level with the track. We'll see.

 

Northmoor: I like that a lot. But I also like to turn these euphemisms back against the management (and other guilty parties). It's not really OK to say "What you have just shown me will be my new standard by which I judge shoddy work.". But it is OK to say "I see some opportunities for improvement here.". Which means the same thing.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

[Northmoor]

24 minutes ago, TangoOscarMike said:

Northmoor: I like that a lot. But I also like to turn these euphemisms back against the management (and other guilty parties). It's not really OK to say "What you have just shown me will be my new standard by which I judge shoddy work.". But it is OK to say "I see some opportunities for improvement here.". Which means the same thing.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

An excellent attitude, well done.

 

"What gets measured, gets done".  So you will do all the things we can measure regardless of whether they have any worthwhile impact?

"If you're not over-performing, you're under-performing".  So it is impossible to meet my targets?

"This is a quantum leap in performance".  A quantum leap is a movement in electron orbits around an atomic nucleus, so would be measured in Angstroms........ 

 

Sorry, I've spoilt someone else's thread, I'll shut up now.

 

[Gibbo675]

30 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Sorry, I've spoilt someone else's thread, I'll shut up now.

 

Hi Noethomoor,

 

Not so much spoilt but embellished in a strange yet intriguing way.

 

Gibbo.

[TangoOscarMike]

I have no objections to the spoilbellishment, but there is a risk that it could lead to an unseemly outpouring. I could end up ranting about work for many paragraphs, foaming at the mouth and biting my keyboard.

 

[Gibbo675]

3 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

I have no objections to the spoilbellishment, but there is a risk that it could lead to an unseemly outpouring. I could end up ranting about work for many paragraphs, foaming at the mouth and biting my keyboard.

 

If you break your teeth from biting your keyboard you could always 3d print some new ones for your self !!!

[TangoOscarMike]

On 08/11/2019 at 11:23, Gibbo675 said:

If you break your teeth from biting your keyboard you could always 3d print some new ones for your self !!!