Early brake van drawing?

[johnarcher]

I am after a drawing of the old GW brake vans the Bishops Castle used (photo attached if it works).

I assume it's an old one, (later called AA16?), but I think a variety of things fall in that group.

Ideally does anyone know if a drawing of this, or something close, has appeared in a magazine? (I've looked at the BRMNA index, but that doesn't say what variety of Toad each entry is).

I would hope to find one in an old magazine, I can't buy an expensive book for just one drawing.

 

[Miss Prism]

There is an AA16 drawing ascribed to Ken Werrett in Model Railway News August 1962. I don't think the drawing is pukka Werrett though, the style is not quite right, and the drawing shows a non-standard wheelbase of 10' (the standard wheelbase was 11'6"). The drawing also gives 8'5" over the lower footboards whereas it should be 8'7". Barry Lane did a good representative drawing in Modellers' Back Track No 2 Vol 2. Note the BCR van has kept its old lever brakes rather than the later standard clasp brakes.
 

[johnarcher]

Thank you Miss P. So the Lane drawing would be the more use, if I can find a copy of that?  I'll start searching.

[Western Star]

The GWR break vans were covered in Scale Model Trains - a four part article by John Lewis.

[Ian Smith]

The outside brake vans were also covered in an article in either British Railway Journal or Great Western Journal (I think the former) - I have the magazine somewhere, so if necessary I can find out which one it was and let you know.  From memory there is a works drawing within the article.  Alternatively, they are covered in the GWR Goods Wagons bible by  Atkins, Beard & Touret.

 

Ian

[Miss Prism]

British Railway Journal No 17,  but I can't recall offhand a drawing being shown there, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.

 

[johnarcher]

Thanks everybody, if someone could let me know if there is a drawing in the BRJ one I'd be grateful? (And any more detail on the SMT suggestion?).

 

Yes, I know they'll be in Atkins, but as my purpose is BCR rather then GWR I don't really want to buy that for just one thing, a magazine would be more affordable.

 

I've found the relevant MRN and Backtrack issues for sale online, so I'll get those.

 

Thanks again

[corneliuslundie]

It is BRJ Issue 17 pp337-343 by John Lewis and it does include a GWR drawing - though when i asked him John could not tell me where he got it.

Welcome to the arcane world of the BCR.

Are you aware of a side and part end view drawing of an early BCR van by Mike Lloyd. there is also an end view of the grounded body in one photo.

The Newtown Model Railway Society is just starting a 7 mm layout of the authorised but obviously never built dead end branch to Montgomery so I have been spending quite a bit of time researching, and have had a lot of help from Albyn Austin.

We intend using an etched kit we have obtained for a brake van - actually as far as I can see nos 1 and 2 were the same - but probably substituting timber or plastic sections for the folded etches provided fr the exterior framing.

There is an article on BCR signalling in a recent issue of the HMRS Journal by Albyn.

Jonathan

[martinT]

19 hours ago, Western Star said:

The GWR break vans were covered in Scale Model Trains - a four part article by John Lewis.

 

'The Common Toad: a guide to the goods brake vans of the GWR'. To be pedantic it ran to 5 parts - January, April, June, August, & October 1983 (22 pages in all). Excellent altho' it is it contains no drawings at all. Mention (in the January edition) is made of 1882-type van 8806 (from Lot 270 of 1883) being sold to the BCR in January 1913. Diagram AA16 (dated September 1919) was issued to cover modernised versions of these 1882-type vans - this involved self-contained buffers, 8-shoe clasp-type brakes, increased tare weight (12 tons). Needless to say there aren't comprehensive records of which vans received which modifications!

HTH

Martin

[johnarcher]

Thanks again to everybody, posts and the PM-sent scan and picture. One final question, I'll get some of the mentioned magazines, but can anyone say if any of them show the original condition (ie pre AA16 modernisation) - especially the brake set-up?

 

Thanks also for the welcome Cornelius, I've always had an interest in said arcane world (along with other minor and rustic lines, main lines mostly don't fascinate me), and I thought it time I did something about it before my time runs out. Must join the society.

[corneliuslundie]

The article in BRJ shows the brakes, push rods and V hanger but not the linkage to the brake wheels. There is a photo of one of the timber framed brakes which lasted to be photographed on the K&ESR the caption to which says "largely in original condition  complete with grease axleboxes and four shoe brakes". The drawing indicates the position of the brake wheel on the balcony.

Jonathan

[johnarcher]

14 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The article in BRJ shows the brakes, push rods and V hanger but not the linkage to the brake wheels. There is a photo of one of the timber framed brakes which lasted to be photographed on the K&ESR the caption to which says "largely in original condition  complete with grease axleboxes and four shoe brakes". The drawing indicates the position of the brake wheel on the balcony.

Jonathan

Thanks again, I'll keep any eye open for that BRJ, though none of the usual sites seem to have a copy at the moment. Loads of 16's and 18's, but no 17.

Still there's no hurry, I have a probable house move coming up so there won't be a lot done for a while.

[bécasse]

The John Lewis articles as downloaded from the relevant yahoo group files:Scale Trains GWR Brake Vans parts 1 & 2.pdfScale Trains GWR Brake Vans parts 3 to 5.pdf

[johnarcher]

7 hours ago, bécasse said:

The John Lewis articles as downloaded from the relevant yahoo group files:Scale Trains GWR Brake Vans parts 1 & 2.pdfScale Trains GWR Brake Vans parts 3 to 5.pdf

Thank you, that is unexpected and very helpful.

Especially as it has a diagram of the brake linkage from the wheel (standard?) to the cross-rod, detail which apparently is not in the BRJ article (when I find a copy).

Edited May 13, 2019 by johnarcher

[bécasse]

GWR Brake Vans 1888 - 1950.pdf

The James Snowdon 1976 articles from the erstwhile MRC, also downloaded from the relevant yahoo group files.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by bécasse
correction of typo

[johnarcher]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

GWR Brake Vans 1888 - 1950.pdf 4.89 MB · 4 downloads

The James Snowdon 1976 articles from the erstwhile MRC, also downloaded from the relevant yahoo group files.

 

I can only say thanks again.

 

[Albyn]

A pal forwarded this to me.  I model in 4mm scale and used the ABS whitemetal kit for my models which has some drawings on.  Not quite the correct brake van as it is a little later but OK in 4mm scale as the differences are very small.  I can copy the instruction sheet if i can find it,

regards,

Albyn Austin

[johnarcher]

10 hours ago, Albyn said:

A pal forwarded this to me.  I model in 4mm scale and used the ABS whitemetal kit for my models which has some drawings on.  Not quite the correct brake van as it is a little later but OK in 4mm scale as the differences are very small.  I can copy the instruction sheet if i can find it,

regards,

Albyn Austin

I would be grateful for that, there is likely to be some information in the instructions that would be helpful in making one (or both).

As far as I can see No 2 at least was basically 1882 pattern - ie iron solebars?

[jim.snowdon]

14 hours ago, bécasse said:

GWR Brake Vans 1888 - 1950.pdf 4.89 MB · 15 downloads

The James Snowdon 1976 articles from the erstwhile MRC, also downloaded from the relevant yahoo group files.

 

It's nice to know that 43 years later they are still proving useful.

 

Jim

[corneliuslundie]

Oh dear. I have been working on the assumption that the two BCR ex-GWR brake vanes had wooden solebars and dated from the 70s, but looking again at photos in Lucas i see that they are both iron/steel framed - No 1 on page 50 and No 2 on page 52. On the other hand, that does make the old ABS model a better contender in 4 mm.

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

I assumed that my AA16 was an ABS kit but in fact it was from Danny Pinnock. I have the instructions which indicate that they were originally built with four shoe brakes but after WW1 many were uprated and given 8-shoe clasp brakes and self-contained buffers. There is no indication of the brake linkage other than and push rods. They also note that the 1882 built ones had bulb angle solebars but the 1886 and later ones had channel solebars. I can scan and post the instruction sheet if anyone wants to see it though there is not much more about the prototypes.

I note that in my 2013 ABS catalogue the AA16 is shown as a new item.

Jonathan

[mike morley]

My understanding is that the kit was originally ABS, then became D&S, then, when Danny Pinnock retired, reverted to ABS.

Source of info was Adrian Swain, not long after he had resumed manufacture, which would have been about 2013.  I was purchasing my second one at the time and would like a third to convert to a Liskeard and Caradon version.

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, mike morley said:

My understanding is that the kit was originally ABS, then became D&S, then, when Danny Pinnock retired, reverted to ABS.

 

Correct.

 

[Albyn]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assumed that my AA16 was an ABS kit but in fact it was from Danny Pinnock. I have the instructions which indicate that they were originally built with four shoe brakes but after WW1 many were uprated and given 8-shoe clasp brakes and self-contained buffers. There is no indication of the brake linkage other than and push rods. They also note that the 1882 built ones had bulb angle solebars but the 1886 and later ones had channel solebars. I can scan and post the instruction sheet if anyone wants to see it though there is not much more about the prototypes.

I note that in my 2013 ABS catalogue the AA16 is shown as a new item.

Jonathan

So far have just found the kit header for my kit - no instructions - so if you could scan the instructions please that would be helpful - though it looks as though this scan might be OK.  My ABS "FourMost Models"  header says 'GWR 10 ton outside frame pre-diagram brake van of 1886, F.272'.  They were still available 3 yor 4 years back from ABS but I don't know the situation now as I believe he has retired and some parts of the business have moved on,

regards,

Albyn   

[Albyn]

On 09/05/2019 at 20:16, johnarcher said:

I am after a drawing of the old GW brake vans the Bishops Castle used (photo attached if it works).

I assume it's an old one, (later called AA16?), but I think a variety of things fall in that group.

Ideally does anyone know if a drawing of this, or something close, has appeared in a magazine? (I've looked at the BRMNA index, but that doesn't say what variety of Toad each entry is).

I would hope to find one in an old magazine, I can't buy an expensive book for just one drawing.

 

 

You know that Worsley Works does the BCR ex LSWR six wheeler and Shapeways Recreation 21 produces the BCR ex- H&B coach and the old goods van type that pre-dated the iron minks ( more or less the same size as GWR ones)  regards,

Albyn