Network Rail to ban Flying Scotsman?

[ejstubbs]

9 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Whether anything other than withdrawing permission for some or all steam tours would be effective, I don't know.  Perhaps such threats might moderate the behaviour of the idiots. But those offenders have to be dealt with and the "public" need to be educated.

 

Agree.  They should at least try to make an example of the known offenders before resorting to punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few.  And by "making an example" I mean not just posting images of them on Facebook and Twitter with "tut tut" comments - many of these idiots base their self esteem largely on their social media presence.

 

At least when traffic police post videos of idiotic driving they almost always add a comment that the offender has been apprehended and charged.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

Whether anything other than withdrawing permission for some or all steam tours would be effective, I don't know.  Perhaps such threats might moderate the behaviour of the idiots.

 

 

Regrettably given the mentality of the problem people the threat is just as likely to make the problem worse as they all rush out to get their pictures before a threatened ban takes place...

[Dava]

The 'Daily Express' publishes passing times of 60103 running through the Home Counties, on a half term week.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1133944/flying-scotsman-2019-tour-route-mapped-when-will-the-flying-scotsman-go-through-your-home/amp

 

No safety advice about not trespassing, walking on the track or not standing on that funny 3rd rail to get a better view. I don't know if there were any trespasser or crowding incidents but tabloid press publishing the times seems to invite trouble....do they do this every time or only on slow news days? Talking of which it took 15 minutes to post this with RmWeb being so slow. 

[jim.snowdon]

4 hours ago, Dava said:

The 'Daily Express' publishes passing times of 60103 running through the Home Counties, on a half term week.

I dare say they would not even think about doing it for any other steam locomotive.

 

Jim

[lightengine]

What decrepit old stock can we trespass to have a look at?

[eastglosmog]

Seems like we have the pestilential thing coming down the Cotswold line this Saturday afternoon.  Exact times are being withheld to try and reduce the trespass problem.

[Steamport Southport]

12 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Seems like we have the pestilential thing coming down the Cotswold line this Saturday afternoon.  Exact times are being withheld to try and reduce the trespass problem.

 

Is that the times that were published in one of the local papers after NR withheld them? I honestly despair.

 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/17698752.flying-scotsman-to-pass-through-gloucestershire-this-weekend/?ref=mr&lp=1

 

 

 

Jason

 

[jim.snowdon]

16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is that the times that were published in one of the local papers after NR withheld them? I honestly despair.

 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/17698752.flying-scotsman-to-pass-through-gloucestershire-this-weekend/?ref=mr&lp=1

 

 

 

Jason

 

The times of departure and at various places en route are there in plain sight on the organiser's website, as they have to be if they are to sell it to prospective passengers. All the newspaper has to do is look them up on the Internet. 

The problem isn't going to go away unless the locomotive in question is withdrawn from main line operations, and even then, it won't go away, merely become reduced. There are always going to be some who want to get the picture from inside the railway fence, even if they use public footpath crossings as a "legal" way of doing so. Some of their pictures appear on online forums and similar, and so long as they do, they only serve as encouragement for the less enlightened.

 

Jim

[eastglosmog]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is that the times that were published in one of the local papers after NR withheld them? I honestly despair.

 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/17698752.flying-scotsman-to-pass-through-gloucestershire-this-weekend/?ref=mr&lp=1

 

 

 

Jason

 

Indeed so.  Our local website, having said the times are being withheld because of the trespass problem, then makes a pretty informed guess, based on the times of previous Cotswold Venturer journeys.  As it's stopping for 20min in Charlbury station to fill up with water, I suspect any hope the barmy army would be kept at bay was vain from the start.

Edited June 12, 2019 by eastglosmog
typo

[Colin_McLeod]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is that the times that were published in one of the local papers after NR withheld them? I honestly despair.

 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/17698752.flying-scotsman-to-pass-through-gloucestershire-this-weekend/?ref=mr&lp=1

 

 

 

Jason

 

If you despair, why did YOU republish those times?

Edited June 12, 2019 by Colin_McLeod
To add smilie

[jim.snowdon]

11 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

If you despair, why did YOU republish those times?

Once the cat is out of the bag, it's out, and it's been out ever since the Railway Touring Company advertised the trip in the first place. 

There are, ultimately, two options - don't run the loco at all, or learn how to live with it.

 

Jim

[4630]

Timings for FS working 1Z24 and 1Z27 ( London Paddington-Worcester SH) on 15th June are available on the usual websites. 

[Reorte]

The tour operators could do with running a campaign - "Flying Scotsman - you've seen it before."

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

If you despair, why did YOU republish those times?

 

Well it was linked from the BBC website. Ironically from the article about trespass....

 

But I doubt many of the British public will be looking on a model railway website to find timings for Flying Scotsman if they are in their local newspaper.

 

And yes. I did notice winkey face.

 

 

Jason

[eastglosmog]

Flood warnings for the Evenlode - maybe we will find out if the Flying Scotsman floats!

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/06/2019 at 10:04, 4630 said:

Timings for FS working 1Z24 and 1Z27 ( London Paddington-Worcester SH) on 15th June are available on the usual websites. 

Although it is shown on RTT as diesel hauled - but the max speed is something of a giveaway

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎12‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 10:04, 4630 said:

Timings for FS working 1Z24 and 1Z27 ( London Paddington-Worcester SH) on 15th June are available on the usual websites. 

Thanks, I'll make a point of going nowhere on either route whilst they are polluted.

 

John

Edited June 14, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Pre Grouping fan]

Steam tours are always shown as diesel hauled on RTT. Probably to deter people from trespassing.

[DY444]

I would ban FS with immediate effect and make it crystal clear that trespass is the reason and if possible include plenty of images of the culprits in the press release.   I would also announce that if any trespass delay minutes are attributed to any other steam movements then the locomotive involved will be banned too.  I'd let that sink in for a few weeks and then announce a conditional suspension of the ban(s).  The condition being that if any trespass related delay minutes are attributed to movements of any steam locomotive then the previous ban(s) will be reinstated permanently.  Then continue to impose bans on any steam locomotive movement responsible for trespass delay minutes.  Eventually the morons will either get the message and it'll stop or they won't and steam movements will cease.  Either way problem solved.

 

My guess is that the mentality of the trespassers is such that they don't see that they are doing anything wrong and it will continue but at least you have given them the chance to self police.  If they don't take that chance then tough.

Edited June 15, 2019 by DY444

[beast66606]

The problem wth that approach is the thousands of genuine enthusiasts then get penalised for the few transgressors.

 

To exagerate - Would you be happy to have your car crushed because others can't stop speeding down your road ?

 

BTP need to prosecute as many as they can catch and let people know there will be consequences - drop the softly softly approach and go for the round 'em up and ship 'em out approach.

[Jonboy]

Maybe open a pen at the nearest terminal station and make them stand in it apologising to commuters for causing x number of minutes of delay...I am sure the commuters would appreciate the opportunity to forgive and forget...

[Steadfast]

22 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Steam tours are always shown as diesel hauled on RTT. Probably to deter people from trespassing.

It's just a timing load. Used to generate a set of  times the train can keep to. It's like a freight train may show 4500t diesel hauled, doesn't mean that actual service that day is 4500t, it's a maximum for timing purposes (simply put)

 

Jo

[DY444]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

The problem wth that approach is the thousands of genuine enthusiasts then get penalised for the few transgressors.

 

To exagerate - Would you be happy to have your car crushed because others can't stop speeding down your road ?

 

BTP need to prosecute as many as they can catch and let people know there will be consequences - drop the softly softly approach and go for the round 'em up and ship 'em out approach.

 

That's tough imo.  Life is full of restrictions and annoying constraints placed on everybody due to the actions of the stupid or self-entitled arrogant minority.  I have speed bumps down my road (which no-one who lives here wants) as a consequence of the minority using it as a rat run who get it confused with Silverstone.

 

It boils down to what the main line railway is actually for.  Is it to provide entertainment or is it to transport people and freight?  You simply cannot let idiots engaged in the former continue to negatively affect the latter. 

 

Sooner or later someone is going to be seriously injured or killed doing this and then the whole lot will be stopped anyway without a second thought for the sensible majority.  But for a few millimetres and immense good fortune, the moron who nearly got collected by the 170 (video posted up the thread) would probably have had the dubious and posthumous honour of being the person responsible for a blanket ban.

 

Getting the BTP to round up the culprits is all very well in principle but in reality it is not very realistic given the sheer number of incidents, the effort involved in identifying them and the other pressures on BTP resources.  However many you catch there will always be others.  Apart from a total ban, peer pressure and a certainty as to the consequences is the only way to stop this.  A ban on any steam locomotive causing a trespass delay has a boa constrictor effect - you keep doing it and we'll keep squeezing until steam operation is dead.  You stop and operations continue.  That gives the sub-set of morons who actually have a few working brain cells some food for thought and the sensible majority an incentive to actively call out the morons.  

Edited June 15, 2019 by DY444

[jim.snowdon]

20 minutes ago, DY444 said:

It boils down to what the main line railway is actually for.  Is it to provide entertainment or is it to transport people and freight?  You simply cannot let idiots engaged in the former continue to negatively affect the latter. 

The main line railway, ie Network Rail's infrastructure, is there as a commercial operation and bound by rules of open access. The steam operators are commercial operations in just the same way as any other train operating company and have the same rights to use the railway as any other. Banning steam operation is probably not in NR's gift, any more than a freight operator could be banned for their slow trains getting in the way of a passenger operator's fast trains. The only people who have the power to do anything (probably) are the ORR, and in terms of safety regulation, all they can do is to lean on NR to make the railway boundary more secure (good if you have shares in companies that make and install palisade fencing).

FS may be a pain in the proverbial to both NR and the TOCs, but until it stops being a profitable operation, it isn't likely to go away. Rather than adopting a Canute-like approach, we need to learn how to live with it.

 

Jim

[beast66606]

52 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

That's tough imo.  Life is full of restrictions and annoying constraints placed on everybody due to the actions of the stupid or self-entitled arrogant minority.  I have speed bumps down my road (which no-one who lives here wants) as a consequence of the minority using it as a rat run who get it confused with Silverstone.

 

It boils down to what the main line railway is actually for.  Is it to provide entertainment or is it to transport people and freight?  You simply cannot let idiots engaged in the former continue to negatively affect the latter. 

 

Sooner or later someone is going to be seriously injured or killed doing this and then the whole lot will be stopped anyway without a second thought for the sensible majority.  But for a few millimetres and immense good fortune, the moron who nearly got collected by the 170 (video posted up the thread) would probably have had the dubious and posthumous honour of being the person responsible for a blanket ban.

 

Getting the BTP to round up the culprits is all very well in principle but in reality it is not very realistic given the sheer number of incidents, the effort involved in identifying them and the other pressures on BTP resources.  However many you catch there will always be others.  Apart from a total ban, peer pressure and a certainty as to the consequences is the only way to stop this.  A ban on any steam locomotive causing a trespass delay has a boa constrictor effect - you keep doing it and we'll keep squeezing until steam operation is dead.  You stop and operations continue.  That gives the sub-set of morons who actually have a few working brain cells some food for thought and the sensible majority an incentive to actively call out the morons.  

 

Speed bumps are akin to not publishing times, a minor inconvenience - crushing your car is equivalent to a steam ban, because a few can't follow the rules everyone must suffer the worst possible consequences.

 

The guy with the 170 was not actually trespassing - ironic.

 

BTP arresting every trespasser they see is the answer, the more they do this the more the message will get home.  There will always be morons - killing off steam from the main line is not the answer and comes across as more of a rant than a reasoned argument I'm afraid.