Network Rail to ban Flying Scotsman?

[Mallard60022]

Yesterday, at Retford, Tornado was due through on the down slow (Platform 2), to stop in Babworth Loop for water. NR had stationed (sorry) two Trespass Patrol Staff, one for Platform 1 and one for Platform 2 at the site. I was the only enthusiast on P 1 and was seeing SWMBO off on a Hull Trains service that arrived as Tornado arrived. I think there was a LNER member of staff on P2 who was taking a picture? Tornado is not FS but seems like steam is still rated as a risk by NR. Just for info, in the late afternoon, when it was due back through on the FU at 18.18, there were no NR staff and about six blokes including me, Sadly there was chaos as a HT service had been stopped on the UM at Bawtry about 16.30ish with a 'fire' situation. The ECML came to a stand around that time and then 'a severed cable' just north of Donny added to all the s##t. It was also pi''ing down! Eventually Tornado appeared at about 19.50, on the UM, having been diverted around Leeds (we think) from York where it had been 55 minutes down anyway having left Scarborough 48 down! I had gone home twice before racing out to see it, us 'blokes' having been convinced it was off down the Midland from Leeds to Nottingham and then Grantham and then me seeing it on Open Trains at home where it was just north of Bawtry. 

Just saying that NR seem to be very wary of steam on the ECML; the last bit of the story was just for info.

Phil

[Zomboid]

Purely for the mental health of the drivers they've got to slow trains down. I'd have no sympathy for the trespasser (suicides are different, as that's not a result of idiocy), but the drivers and the clean up squad should never knowingly or avoidably be put in that position.

[kevinlms]

36 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

and was seeing SWMBO off on a Hull Trains service that arrived as Tornado arrived.

Phil

So did you actually notice if your wife left on her train, or were you more interested in the younger lady?

[John Tomlinson]

I really would suggest that all posters read carefully the link posted by Jim Snowdon to the CPS notes on tresspass, both the legal basis and also the recommended remedies. This is on the previous page, page 5, towards the top.

 

Interesting that tresspass was only legally punishable until 1949 on refusal of a request to vacate railway property, the 1949 Act made display of a notice at the nearest station sufficient grounds, although the notice has to be displayed clearly - so if I'm 10 miles from the nearest station would the notice be "clear"?

 

Apropos of posts subsequent to my original, noting the UK to be one of the few railways around the world with fencing, it seems that Royal Oak has firmly hit the nail on the head were he notes "common sense doesn't come into it..."

 

Oh Dear!!

 

John.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

So did you actually notice if your wife left on her train, or were you more interested in the younger lady?

Ah, that younger lady, but 'she' had trundled off up into the loop about 1/4 a mile away! SWMBO was seen off quickly! I went to see the younger lady gathering up here skirts at Botany Bay Crossing about 35 minutes later.

P

[royaloak]

Once again we have the "banning steam/FC isnt the answer" but they cannot offer an alternative, brilliant!

 

In lieu of any alternatives being offered I say ban the bloody thing (and tell everyone why it is being banned) so the railway can get back to doing its day job!

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Purely for the mental health of the drivers they've got to slow trains down. I'd have no sympathy for the trespasser (suicides are different, as that's not a result of idiocy), but the drivers and the clean up squad should never knowingly or avoidably be put in that position.

I feel for the clean up crew, a coup,le of weeks ago we had a relatively low speed suicide (note left at home etc) and 2 hours after the incident they were still 'hosing down the area', okay the driver has seen the splat but, unless they do the walk back (where they have the option of stopping at any stage), it is the clean up crew which see the worst of it, then there is the clean up crew who have to steam clean the underside of the train.

[Steamport Southport]

41 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

I really would suggest that all posters read carefully the link posted by Jim Snowdon to the CPS notes on tresspass, both the legal basis and also the recommended remedies. This is on the previous page, page 5, towards the top.

 

Interesting that tresspass was only legally punishable until 1949 on refusal of a request to vacate railway property, the 1949 Act made display of a notice at the nearest station sufficient grounds, although the notice has to be displayed clearly - so if I'm 10 miles from the nearest station would the notice be "clear"?

 

Apropos of posts subsequent to my original, noting the UK to be one of the few railways around the world with fencing, it seems that Royal Oak has firmly hit the nail on the head were he notes "common sense doesn't come into it..."

 

Oh Dear!!

 

John.

 

Trespass on the railways has been an offence since at least 1830. It was deemed as private property and trespass on private property was always an offence. 

 

The 1949 Act was introduced due to nationalisation where the legal boundaries were changed. Probably to fill in a loophole in the law.

 

 

Jason

[John Tomlinson]

Yes indeed, trespass on anyone's property has been and is an offence, I think the issue here is the legal remedy. Please note I'm a chartered accountant with some legal knowledge, but I'm not a solicitor, so do feel free to amend and enhance.

 

So for example, you might come and stand in my garden. Assuming you don't force entry, your action is a civil offence which rests on the damage you do, say treading on the flowers. I can ask you to leave, but can't force you to do so, although I can call the Police and they can act on your refusal to move and, as I understand it, arrest you for causing a breach of the peace or public disturbance. My remedy from you remains compensation for the damage you've done to my property in treading down the flowers, and maybe something for emotional distress to me. Whether in fact the Police would take legal action in practice on you for a mild breach of the peace is questionable.

 

The Railway is different to other property covered by this general law because of the specific Acts of Parliament, which now allow for arrest and prosecution simply for being there, even if you agree to leave when challenged and haven't done any damage, as long as there's a formal notice at the nearest station. This is spelt out in the CPS document referenced by Jim, and hence a difference if you read carefully between the 1949 Act and what came before.

 

Coming back to Flying Scotsman, I really don't see why a few plain clothed officers of BTP can't do a few arrests, get them maximum publicity, hopefully full wack £1000 fine, and most folk put off being daft for good.

 

Someone has just sent me a document about the forthcoming tour of the Big Boy round the mid-West, including Chicago. High population areas, few fences, and full disclosure of the itinerary with GPS tracking in the public domain. Be interesting to see how this goes.

 

John.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, royaloak said:

Once again we have the "banning steam/FC isnt the answer" but they cannot offer an alternative, brilliant!

 

In lieu of any alternatives being offered I say ban the bloody thing (and tell everyone why it is being banned) so the railway can get back to doing its day job!

Are you not guilty of only offering one solution? Of something you obviously hate - people mostly enjoying themselves and the vast majority of which are behaving properly.

 

I'm pleased that many other former and current railway employees & contractors, come on RMweb to give their knowledge and share how they addressed various issues, in a professional capacity. In most cases sharing their personal documents, going back several decades.

 

In another thread, there is some discussion on people who have left RMweb, due to their personal attitudes to others here.

[Budgie]

4 hours ago, royaloak said:

I feel for the clean up crew, a coup,le of weeks ago we had a relatively low speed suicide (note left at home etc) and 2 hours after the incident they were still 'hosing down the area', okay the driver has seen the splat but, unless they do the walk back (where they have the option of stopping at any stage), it is the clean up crew which see the worst of it, then there is the clean up crew who have to steam clean the underside of the train.

 

How does this differ from the experiences of the clean-up crew who cleaned up after the woman who jumped onto the track at Wimbledon station to recover her mobile phone?

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-23-killed-by-train-after-157935

[Mallard60022]

9 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

How does this differ from the experiences of the clean-up crew who cleaned up after the woman who jumped onto the track at Wimbledon station to recover her mobile phone?

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-23-killed-by-train-after-157935

Oh, that is horrible. There seems to be a degree of naivety with some of the 'public' that maybe do not use trains or stations very often? I would think that most commuters would be aware of the speed of trains through stations but maybe not the casual traveller or visitor. What ever the case, the witnesses to something like this must have a hell of a time dealing with it.

Phil

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, Budgie said:

 

How does this differ from the experiences of the clean-up crew who cleaned up after the woman who jumped onto the track at Wimbledon station to recover her mobile phone?

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-23-killed-by-train-after-157935

Because she was in a few big bits, the one I described was in lots of little bits, other than that I dont understand the point you are making other than being argumentative because you can. 

[jim.snowdon]

16 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Because she was in a few big bits, the one I described was in lots of little bits, other than that I dont understand the point you are making other than being argumentative because you can. 

Sometimes I have to wonder who is being more argumentative. A forum, any forum, is a place for balanced argument and debate.

 

Jim

[kevinlms]

7 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Oh, that is horrible. There seems to be a degree of naivety with some of the 'public' that maybe do not use trains or stations very often? I would think that most commuters would be aware of the speed of trains through stations but maybe not the casual traveller or visitor. What ever the case, the witnesses to something like this must have a hell of a time dealing with it.

Phil

The trouble is that many people view a mobile phone as the 'most important thing in their life' and it will only take 30 seconds to pick it up.

Of course at a place like Wimbledon, with 3rd rail, is going to be a lot harder to recover a mere phone, as not only will trains have to be stopped, but power turned off, so the proper staff can go to retrieve it. Network Rail won't be in any hurry.

 

The poor boyfriend, will regret a trivial argument for the rest of his life.

[south_tyne]

22 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I disagree, as I don't see why the vast majority of people that merely turn up, to watch a steam locomotive (any one, not just the FS), should be punished for an indefinite period (with nothing to say that it will ever be a temporary one), for what must be a very small minority.

 

To draw a parallel, it is the same as racist, homophobic or sexist chanting and abuse at football matches, or recentt violence by yobbos following the England national team. Sometimes there comes a point whereby the only way to deal with it is to punish the many because of the moronic behaviour of the few. Are the majority of football fans racist? No! Are the bulk of railway enthusiasts trespassers putting lives at risk? Certainly not. However, shock tactics can sometimes be the only response left available. In both cases, long-term education is critical but, in the short-term, more drastic measures may be needed. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it and don't want to see a ban, but it could be a necessary last resort. 

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Oh, that is horrible. There seems to be a degree of naivety with some of the 'public' that maybe do not use trains or stations very often? I would think that most commuters would be aware of the speed of trains through stations but maybe not the casual traveller or visitor. What ever the case, the witnesses to something like this must have a hell of a time dealing with it.

Phil

No this is horrible. How many bodies get picked up DAILY?

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

 

Someone has just sent me a document about the forthcoming tour of the Big Boy round the mid-West, including Chicago. High population areas, few fences, and full disclosure of the itinerary with GPS tracking in the public domain. Be interesting to see how this goes.

 

John.

The advantage with the Big Boy is that its sheer size means that anyone wanting to film/photograph it needs to be a safe distance away or they just won't get the whole thing in the frame.

 

Apropos of the UK's "problem engine" I would much prefer to see FS banned before the F-wit Tendency start spreading their attention to other locos, perhaps leading to a blanket NR ban on all steam trips.

 

John

Edited June 17, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

At our local station any Fwits are swiftly 'dealt with' by either the staff or the other enthusiasts. So far we have not had to deal with any huge tattooed gym busting yobs as most Fwits are just like us except for the Fwit bit, however we do have a laugh at the sewer mouth comments we receive!

However, out in the open spaces of North Nottinghamshire, we have our share of wanderers but not trespassers. I have only ever spoken to someone the 'wrong side of the fence' on one occasion and that was long before FS was re released. I do hope that at other locations the sensible members of the enthusiast community will gather to do the same sort of policing of these Richard Craniums that seem to appear out of nowhere. What we see on film though is very frightening and no one seems to intervene (except maybe Station Staff) when it is obvious what is about to happen. Is there a reason for that?

Phil

[dvdlcs]

Are there still equivalents of British Rails Q trains running? Perhaps by NR.

 

Perhaps something like that pathed in front of the steam special to scoop up those that are endangering themselves and others?

[Talltim]

35 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

Are there still equivalents of British Rails Q trains running? Perhaps by NR.

 

Perhaps something like that pathed in front of the steam special to scoop up those that are endangering themselves and others?

Using one of these?

 

[Budgie]

47 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Who pays?

 

The trespasser(s).

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, dvdlcs said:

Are there still equivalents of British Rails Q trains running? Perhaps by NR.

 

Perhaps something like that pathed in front of the steam special to scoop up those that are endangering themselves and others?

Just refit the cow-catcher that FS carried whilst in the USA.

[royaloak]

8 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

The trespasser(s).

 

How much time, effort and money would it take to get them in Court and the necessary funds extracted?

 

Far easier just to remove the item causing the trespass problems in the first place!

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/06/2019 at 19:52, royaloak said:

Except that railtour operators are not responsible for any delays their service causes to other operators, Network Rail are and it is costing NR an obscene amount of money.

 

In my books Network Rail are entitled to 'cost' services so they dont cost NR money in allowing OA operators access to the network, so maybe NR should increase the charges to cover all the delay minutes this loco causes.

It depends on the cause of the delay.  Trespass is down to NR, failure of a railtour engine (for whatever reason) is down to the operator as is, for example, losing time in run ning due to something other than an infrastructure fault and lineside fires can be down to the engine on a steam hauled special if it is not managed properly or has a problem such as an ashpan failing to contain hot coals etc.

 

Incidentally as far as the daft woman at Kemble is concerned the platforms are clearly marked with yellow lines and appropriate notices are exhibited.  Alas her action was not unusual and saw something equally stupid on the part of a woman at Hook some years back when Tornado was due to pass - she too narrowly avoided avery close encounter with the passing train.