Era 1 models?

[VicZA]

Hi All,

 

Are there any Era 1 models available? I assume it would be Era 1 before Era 2 ... I am looking for the really old 1850’s kinda stuff ...

[Devo63]

There is not a great selection of early stock available, especially in OO scale. There are a few HO scale models, mainly by Bachmann, that can be adapted for pioneering railways.

 

Off the top of my head the following have been available at various times in the past and can be found on various online auction and sale sites.

 

Triang/Hornby - Stephenson's 'ROCKET' 0-2-2 and coaches - OO scale.

Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol - 'ROCKET' 0-2-2 plastic kit - OO scale. Can be cut & shut to make other early locos.

Keyser (K's) - 'LION' 0-4-2 white metal kit - OO scale.

Keyser (K's) - 'BUDDICOM' 2-2-2 white metal kit - HO scale.

Keyser (K's) -  Spanish Mataro plastic 4 wheel coach kits - HO scale. 

Trix -  'ADLER' 2-2-2 and coaches - HO scale. Loco is unpowered with motor in first coach. About the first Era 1 model produced.

Piko - 'SAXONIA' 0-4-2 and coaches - HO scale. Loco is unpowered with motorised baggage car.

Bachmann - 'DE WITT CLINTON' 0-4-0 and coaches - HO Scale. Small tender drive loco and very small coaches.

Bachmann - 'JOHN BULL' 2-4-0 and coaches - HO scale. Bigger tender drive loco.

Bachmann - 'PRUSSIA' 4-2-0 and coaches - HO scale. Loco drive.

Bachmann - 'LAFAYETTE' 4-2-0 and coaches - HO scale. Same loco as 'PRUSSIA' with larger coaches.

Bachmann - 'PHOENIX' 4-2-0 and coaches - HO scale. Same as above bit different livery.

 

A number of members of this forum are producing designs for 3D printing of early locomotives and rolling stock. One example is found at:

 

 Hope this is of help. I feel there are a number of other models/kits that I have forgotten about - I have not listed the various Broad Gauge kits by the BGS, Mike's Models or Keyser.

 

Dave R. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Since 'Era 1' extends to 1875 (I struggle for a rationale for this particular year as a cut off) you might wink heavily and accept the Stirling Single? (The NRM/Rapido OO model depicts the preserved specimen, rebuilt from the class prototype which emerged in 1870 ...)

 

There was a proposal some years ago for an OO model of the Kirtley double framed 0-6-0, a design with an origin circa 1850. That would have been bang in your 1850's target zone, and remains in my opinion one of the most likely old engines to get a RTR model. The last one made it into BR service as 58110, it's attractively quaint and dated, with the feature of flycranks only adding to the charm, yet also large enough to readily accommodate a fully concealed drive with no compromise to exterior appearance. (Much the same size as the J15, which has a most successful model.)

[Steamport Southport]

Pity these aren't currently available.

 

http://www.5and9models.co.uk/

 

 

 

Jason

[Devo63]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Pity these aren't currently available.

 

http://www.5and9models.co.uk/

 

 

 

Jason

Thanks for reminding me Jason. 

I knew there was another prolific white metal kit producer for early locomotives and rolling stock but had completely forgotten about Chris Cox. This is very remiss of me as I have one of his very neat kits of an 1850's LB&SCR open sided third sitting right on the shelf next to me. I would love to see his 'JENNY LIND' model available as I would like to build it as 'WILL SHAKESPERE' on the OW&W.  

 

Dave R. 

[The Johnster]

One might have though that one of the possible cherries to be picked for kit producers or even 3D printers would be a range of suitable standard locos, with generic coaches, and wagons that could be worked up to represent specific prototypes, for this period.  Jenny Lind, 'Sharpie' singles and 2-4-0s, Kitson 0-6-0s, maybe a Crompton or a Stephenson long boiler goods.  Loads were not great and N gauge mechanisms could be used.  It is a type of modelling that is not only appealing because of the sheer attractiveness of the stock. much of which would look at home on a mantelpiece, but because it can be compressed into a much more limited space than later periods with longer trains of bigger locos and stock.

 

But I know nothing about marketing and what can be successfully made money out of, or how to make money out of it.  Clearly, the big manufacturers don't reckon it's worth the candle, but smaller scale production might be viable.  I'm just kite flying, of course, it's only a suggestion!

[cctransuk]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

One might have though that one of the possible cherries to be picked for kit producers or even 3D printers would be a range of suitable standard locos, with generic coaches, and wagons that could be worked up to represent specific prototypes, for this period.

 

This is something that comes up time and time again, but never materialises; (thank God).

 

The fallacy is in the emboldened words above - especially in 'Era 1', or the dawn of steam railways, as I prefer to think of it. 'Standard' was not even conceived at that time; every prospective locomotive engineer worth his salt was inventing his own idea of how a steam locomotive should operate and, thereby, look. There was no proven theory, no textbook; and so what few images have come down to us demonstrate that virtually no two locos looked the same. Even when small batches were built, constant experimentation and improvement resulted in an incredible diversity in locomotive function and appearance.

 

Jump forward to the present day, and suggest the same thing. What market would there be for a 'generic' General Motors locomotive that was neither a Class 59 nor, say, a Class 66; but something 'standard' that could be worked up to represent specific prototypes? I can hear the reaction in this forum to the first EP image - "It looks nothing like a Class XX or a YY, let alone a ZZ".

 

If that is the likely scenario when so many loco classes have a clear family affinity, how could the same premise be applicable to a period when variety is the very essence and attraction of modelling the trains?

 

Sorry to sound so negative, but 'generic' went out with Hornby Dublo LNER N2s dressed up as GWR 0-6-2Ts. Wrenn tried it again later when they bought HD, but their market was primarily the non-discerning collector.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[johnarcher]

There's also the Broad Gauge Society of course.

Even if one didn't want to model the Broad gauge some bits and pieces they produce would probably be useful.

Edited May 16, 2019 by johnarcher

[Co-tr-Paul]

The Midland Kirtley 0-6-0 can often be found on eBay. Ks kit.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

.... especially in 'Era 1', or the dawn of steam railways, as I prefer to think of it. 'Standard' was not even conceived at that time; every prospective locomotive engineer worth his salt was inventing his own idea of how a steam locomotive should operate and, thereby, look. There was no proven theory, no textbook; and so what few images have come down to us demonstrate that virtually no two locos looked the same. Even when small batches were built, constant experimentation and improvement resulted in an incredible diversity in locomotive function and appearance...

While this is all true of the dawn, some measure of standardisation had emerged circa twenty years after Rocket's triumph. Locomotive classes were by then designed and being erected that would prove sound templates for continued development. Thus my wondering what was so significant about 1875 as the terminus of 'Era 1'? That seems a little late to me, and let us revisit the OP:

On ‎14‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 23:24, VicZA said:

 ... I am looking for the really old 1850’s kinda stuff ...

The 1850s would see such as McConnell's Large Bloomer and Kirtley's 0-6-0s go into service. It is all debatable where exactly a line gets drawn in the sand, but these are clear examples of standardisation on designs based on the proven successes of the experimental 'dawn' phase.

 

 

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

While this is all true of the dawn, some measure of standardisation had emerged circa twenty years after Rocket's triumph. Locomotive classes were by then designed and being erected that would prove sound templates for continued development. Thus my wondering what was so significant about 1875 as the terminus of 'Era 1'? That seems a little late to me, and let us revisit the OP:

The 1850s would see such as McConnell's Large Bloomer and Kirtley's 0-6-0s go into service. It is all debatable where exactly a line gets drawn in the sand, but these are clear examples of standardisation on designs based on the proven successes of the experimental 'dawn' phase.

 

 

 

Accepted - but I still believe that there is no significant market for 'generic' models for any period, especially the more historic; given the furore over detailed differences between individual locos in the 'Terrier' thread.

 

My impression is that, the earlier the period modelled, the greater is the tendency to 'rivet count' !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[HonestTom]

For rolling stock, I would add Smallbrook Studios. They do a chaldron wagon and a "primitive open wagon," both of which are eminently suitable for those early layouts. For static models, the Great British Locomotives Rocket and Locomotion may be of interest.

 

I've made an entirely freelance mid-Victorian saddle tank by the simple expedient of hacking the cab off a Hornby Caledonian Pug and removing some of the more specific details.

 

And of course, lots of manufacturers make horses...

Edited May 16, 2019 by HonestTom

[VicZA]

A RTR model of the Jenny Lind would be fantastic 

[The Johnster]

Jennys were very popular and most railways of the period had a few of them, sometimes acquired from absorbed railways or second hand.  They were sturdy and reliable little things (actually not so little in 1850s terms) and could handle a good variety of jobs; one could be easily adapted to all sorts of prototypes.  

 

Same goes for Sharp, Stewart & Co, Stephenson's, and Bury.  Bloomers, and 'Allan' types with the slide bars mounted in the outside frames, were particularly associated with the LNW, while Crompton long boiler types tended to be used on faster services and were not so common on smaller or secondary lines.

 

Quite a few railways were not big or wealthy enough to have their own loco or stock building facilities, and some of the above are suitable for such applications.  Coaches from the likes of Ashbury were equally common.  David Joy, the valve gear bloke, published diaries which are worth a read; he's an entertaining writer who knew what he was talking about and captures well the atmosphere, and some of the methods of working, of what were still pioneering days.  He was involved in the design of the Jenny Lind.

[PatB]

Perhaps the tendency to rivet counting stems from the nature of those modelling early railways. Almost by definition they will be modellers in the advanced class, due to the need to scratch build almost everything. 

 

I always enjoyed Mike Sharman's articles, largely because, although very skilled, he recognised that meaningful rivet counting, in the absence of comprehensive information, was a bit daft. 

 

One problem with r-t-r, or even reasonably straightforward kits, is that many early locos are so small that there is nowhere to inconspicuously hide the necessary compromises. 00 wheel standards and back-to-backs are all very well when hidden under a running plate and a big boiler, but how do you get them to look right in the open or inside finely fretted splashes. Bachmann's Norris locos are a good example, with even their (presumably) NMRA wheel standards looking decidedly steamroller/pizza cutterish against something so tiny. ISTR Mike Sharman managing OK in EM, but didn't even he eventually go to P4 in the end? Not an "easy" option for most. 

[Ian Simpson]

On 15/05/2019 at 15:53, Steamport Southport said:

Pity these aren't currently available.

 

http://www.5and9models.co.uk/

 

Jason

I think Chris Cox  is still producing kits. Note the "Please email 5 and 9 models for the latest price list and availability" link on the page.

 

Alternatively you could message him on RMWeb at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/25562-59models/   He's a really nice person and his RMWeb blog is interesting - he's building a model of the Bricklayers Arms station in south London in the 1840s.   

 

There's a review of some of his wagon kits here.

 

Ian

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, PatB said:

...One problem with r-t-r, or even reasonably straightforward kits, is that many early locos are so small that there is nowhere to inconspicuously hide the necessary compromises. 00 wheel standards and back-to-backs are all very well when hidden under a running plate and a big boiler, but how do you get them to look right in the open or inside finely fretted splashes. Bachmann's Norris locos are a good example, with even their (presumably) NMRA wheel standards looking decidedly steamroller/pizza cutterish against something so tiny. ISTR Mike Sharman managing OK in EM, but didn't even he eventually go to P4 in the end?...

A good number here should remember the model of the Stockton and Darlington created for the 150th anniversary of the opening, which well illustrated this point. Wheels on full view outside the frames of both locos and chaldron wagons made P4 a necessity for good appearance. The really early isn't at home to much compromise.

[Il Grifone]

 Most (all?) models of the 'Rocket' represent her in Rainhill condition. She was substantially rebuilt prior to delivery, with a smokebox and nearer horizontal cylinders (more like her current appearance. (I have seen it suggested that little of the original locomotive remained.)

 

The GBL locomotion is TT scale and definitely non-functional.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Era 1, Bachmann's arbitrary definition of early railways. Why not stick to simple dates?

 

Does this fit? A LNWR Southern Division Larger Bloomer. Built between 1851 and 1862, they were rebuilt by Webb from 1868 - 75.

 

Kits for both versions are available from from London Road Models, who also have three early LNWR 4-wheel carriages in their list. They also produce kits for the LNWR Lady of the Lake 2-2-2s, 1859 onward, and the 2-4-0 Samsons, built 1863.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson
Correcting an auto spelling error!!!!

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 15/05/2019 at 15:47, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Since 'Era 1' extends to 1875 (I struggle for a rationale for this particular year as a cut off) you might wink heavily and accept the Stirling Single? (The NRM/Rapido OO model depicts the preserved specimen, rebuilt from the class prototype which emerged in 1870 ...)

 

There was a proposal some years ago for an OO model of the Kirtley double framed 0-6-0, a design with an origin circa 1850. That would have been bang in your 1850's target zone, and remains in my opinion one of the most likely old engines to get a RTR model. The last one made it into BR service as 58110, it's attractively quaint and dated, with the feature of flycranks only adding to the charm, yet also large enough to readily accommodate a fully concealed drive with no compromise to exterior appearance. (Much the same size as the J15, which has a most successful model.)

 

According to the WSP book on the MR 700 Class OF 0-6-0's, 58110 was one of that class built between 1869 and 1874. One kit manufacturer has a project in hand to produce an etched 4mm kit for the 700 Class but it is currently held up while some design issues are resolved.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text

[Rudititanic]

The early years are certainly interesting to model and there is a wealth of prototypes to choose from (though I agree re the risks of generic models as a rule - in that instance best to have one specific that can be altered if desired).  I have been developing traditionally-made and 3D-printed Era 1 N gauge models for some years, with the latter now being sold as scratch aids/kits for those interested in the period.  Nice to see a link to my thread at the start thanks!

 

As for Rocket, she was indeed rebuilt quite substantially and I produced a trio of three models to show her chronological development.  Shows that N Gauge has more scope than some would credit!

 

 

[Killian keane]

On 15/05/2019 at 21:36, The Johnster said:

One might have though that one of the possible cherries to be picked for kit producers or even 3D printers would be a range of suitable standard locos, with generic coaches, and wagons that could be worked up to represent specific prototypes, for this period.  Jenny Lind, 'Sharpie' singles and 2-4-0s, Kitson 0-6-0s, maybe a Crompton or a Stephenson long boiler goods.  Loads were not great and N gauge mechanisms could be used.  It is a type of modelling that is not only appealing because of the sheer attractiveness of the stock. much of which would look at home on a mantelpiece, but because it can be compressed into a much more limited space than later periods with longer trains of bigger locos and stock.

 

But I know nothing about marketing and what can be successfully made money out of, or how to make money out of it.  Clearly, the big manufacturers don't reckon it's worth the candle, but smaller scale production might be viable.  I'm just kite flying, of course, it's only a suggestion!

The Idea of standard classes is what Ive been doing,  such as jenny lind and the sharpie luggage engine,  Id love to do a Crampton too but the problem is 00 standards would really make it look awful around the firebox area, look at this footage of a crampton and in the cab shots you'll see how the splashers are right up to the firebox sides https://youtu.be/KlClQjP2eow

Edited July 3, 2019 by Killian keane