Cancelled due to vandalism- Stamford show 18th May

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

This has already been discussed. Amateur watchmen inside venues is no longer allowed, so it falls to the extra cost of professional security.

 

"No longer allowed". By whom? I can see that some venues could have issues with people being inside the premises outside of opening hours. It might not be compatible with their alarm system for a start.

But what is to stop an "amateur watchman" from sitting outside the hall in a car or caravan?

Probably better though, on the whole, to employ professional security overnight.

As far back as 1970, I can recall one of our annual exhibitors with particularly valuable handbuilt models who would simply would not have attended without some overnight security arrangements being in place.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Just mentioned on Classic FM news headlines.

[Leander]

A whip-round after expoEM Spring closed yesterday afternoon raised £170 to be donated to the Just Giving fund. The events of early Saturday morning in Stamford were very much in the minds of those at Bracknell Leisure Centre over the weekend and our thoughts go out to those who suffered losses as a result of the mindless actions of the perpetrators.

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, 45156 said:

Now made just under £40k - well done to all who have contributed

 

Though I do wonder whether this sizeable donation may affect the insurance payout (i.e. could the insurance company turn round and say "Hang on, you've had £40K - why do you need anything from us?").

 

Personally, I haven't donated yet because the fund was well over the amount originally requested by the time I became aware of it, and until the insurance situation is resolved, there may actually be no need for further donations (though I appreciate there is also a goodwill gesture in the donations). If, after the insurance has been resolved, etc, the club/exhibitors/traders still find themselves out of pocket, then of course I would be willing to donate.

 

Which doesn't mean of course that I'm not devastated by what's happened or that I wouldn't be willing to contribute in other ways - e.g. by repairing/replacing a building or two, or by bringing my own (micro) layout to next year's show FOC.

 

And, whilst fully agreeing with the view that 'a replacement wouldn't be my/our work', I can't help thinking there would be something rather splendid about a layout built largely from contributions by modellers across the country in a situation such as this.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, RJS1977 said:

Though I do wonder whether this sizeable donation may affect the insurance payout (i.e. could the insurance company turn round and say "Hang on, you've had £40K - why do you need anything from us?").

 

Personally, I haven't donated yet because the fund was well over the amount originally requested by the time I became aware of it, and until the insurance situation is resolved, there may actually be no need for further donations (though I appreciate there is also a goodwill gesture in the donations). If, after the insurance has been resolved, etc, the club/exhibitors/traders still find themselves out of pocket, then of course I would be willing to donate.

 

I would suggest that is best left to those concerned to deal with rather than any discussion in that respect on here. I know initiatives are being considered which may ensure any donations are put to good use irrespective of such perspectives and advice is being sought.

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Though I do wonder whether this sizeable donation may affect the insurance payout (i.e. could the insurance company turn round and say "Hang on, you've had £40K - why do you need anything from us?").

 

Personally, I haven't donated yet because the fund was well over the amount originally requested by the time I became aware of it, and until the insurance situation is resolved, there may actually be no need for further donations (though I appreciate there is also a goodwill gesture in the donations). If, after the insurance has been resolved, etc, the club/exhibitors/traders still find themselves out of pocket, then of course I would be willing to donate.

 

Which doesn't mean of course that I'm not devastated by what's happened or that I wouldn't be willing to contribute in other ways - e.g. by repairing/replacing a building or two, or by bringing my own (micro) layout to next year's show FOC.

 

And, whilst fully agreeing with the view that 'a replacement wouldn't be my/our work', I can't help thinking there would be something rather splendid about a layout built largely from contributions by modellers across the country in a situation such as this.

 

Its well documented that the insurance pay-out may not be enough to fully compensate. These funds are in place to ensure that everyone does get the compensation they need.

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Depending on the insured value the £40k may or may not actually exceed any insurance pay out.  

 

Perhaps the £40k is towards uninsured losses such as time, sentimental value, insurance excess, etc, in which case it should have no effect on any insurance pay out.  Those handling the insurance claim need to choose their words and actions carefully so that the club and others can receive the maximum amount.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Colin_McLeod
Edit to add that Andy Y's post came through while I was typing. I agree, leave it to the club with professional advice.

[Mark]

40k sounds like a lot of money, but just go and do a simple valuation of your stock at current list prices. It is quite scary!

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[Jol Wilkinson]

Having been away at ExpoEM over the weekend I have only just fully caught up with this thread, As the owner of an layout that is occasionally exhibited, I share the expressions of support for those who lost cherished models, especially those they had made themselves. RTR models can be more easily replaced but scratch or kit built models are all unique and of special value to the builder/owner. Their value cannot be readily defined and the suggestion of "agreed valuations" suggested above and as used for classic cars seems logical but in practise might would be difficult to administer. It would probably require each layout/model owner to agree the values and arrange his own insurance.

 

While this appalling event has clearly illustrated a problem we have thankfully rarely experienced, it does point the need for a considered approach to security at future events, while avoiding impractical knee jerk reactions and suggestions. The extensive news coverage may actually be something of a mixed blessing, identifying the relative insecurity of venues where such events are often held and so portraying then as easy targets for other small minded individuals or groups. Over the years the "hobby" has become used to clubs organising their own events in local venues which are not specifically designed for such events and where compromises exist or have to be made. Security is often fairly well down the list of priorities because, thankfully, it hasn't often been a major issue. Perhaps we need to move to using venues with better facilities, security, etc. However that will probably incur greater costs, in a sector of the hobby where entry fees, catering charges, etc.  are often criticised.

 

Perhaps the CMRA, with 150 Associate Organisations, may like to take a lead on this, if it hasn't already done so.

[papagolfjuliet]

19 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Though I do wonder whether this sizeable donation may affect the insurance payout (i.e. could the insurance company turn round and say "Hang on, you've had £40K - why do you need anything from us?").

 

 

Similar fundraising schemes launched after the Chester Zoo fire and NYMR vandal attack did not affect those organisations' insurance. Where the fault of the incident is clear then the insurers will want to mitigate their losses by paying out quickly and in full. Dragging their heels won't help anything and will cost them more in the long run.

[Rumblestripe]

16 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Personally, I haven't donated yet because the fund was well over the amount originally requested by the time I became aware of it, and until the insurance situation is resolved, there may actually be no need for further donations (though I appreciate there is also a goodwill gesture in the donations). If, after the insurance has been resolved, etc, the club/exhibitors/traders still find themselves out of pocket, then of course I would be willing to donate.

I respect that no-one should feel that they HAVE to donate but I don't think your reasoning is very helpful. There is no precedent (that I'm aware of) for an Insurance company saying  "look at all the money you've already been given we don't need to compensate you" indeed the Insurance Ombudsman should take a very dim view of such.

 

Personally, I have given a small donation and I would be happy for the money to be used to any purpose the club sees fit whether it being helping those who have lost in this incident or wider community projects in the area. I don't think the amount raised is important it simply shows that good people care about other people.

[Phil Parker]

When I had my stock nicked, the CMRA insurance were happy to pay out at the price of models rebuilt by a professional.

 

Since the latest loco I've finished was Steve Barnfield Y7, I got Steve to quote me for the built and added that figure to the cost of bits for each kit built model. OK, it wasn't the perfect way of doing things, but you need a number for the form, and to be able to show your working. 

 

Of course, I only lost stock. Valuing a layout is a different kettle of fish, however, there are professional builder out there who will be willing to give a ballpark figure.

 

All of this doesn't really replace the lost models, but it's the best that can be done.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I suspect that insurers have done quite well out of insuring model railway exhibitions over the years. I don't think we ever made a claim because any losses were below the excess on the policy.

So I hope that they will not be niggardly in this case.

[The Black Hat]

As someone who has organised shows before for the Scout Group that I was part of - the security arrangements fell to me to sort out. While the building we have is lockable and alarmed there were four of us who stopped overnight in the building and locked ourselves in. Having a secure building will be a massive help when looking at the arrangements for what is needed to ensure security and part of this going forwards will be that clubs now will be more selective about which buildings are used.

 

I do massively flee sorry for all those effected. The damage and destruction caused by this attack has been upsetting to see. However much we all want to help the club involved will be overwhelmed by the scale of the recovery, insurance claim, correspondence with traders and exhibitors, as well as now the media and fundraising.

I know many of us are here offering to help - and if need be I would be one for them - but this will take time to overcome even as it fades from the news agenda. I'm sure it will live longer in the memory of all of us as the nightmare scenario that we all face, yet the time needed to effect repairs for some will be years and in other cases sadly not possible. If the show needs a layout there for their show next year - I will attend with mine free of charge, to show support a help them overcome this event.

 

One possible good news idea could be to get youngsters from the local area to build a layout of their own and have a TV company follow their developments. I'm not saying it should be done by those involved, but it can show that youngsters learn the skills of research and time and patience for building their own layout that then returns to the show and stands alongside all those there, with some that have done this for years. Then at the end they show and understand the efforts it takes to get a layout to a show and get welcomed into our very supportive and inclusive community.

[Reorte]

46 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Though I do wonder whether this sizeable donation may affect the insurance payout (i.e. could the insurance company turn round and say "Hang on, you've had £40K - why do you need anything from us?").

 

I hope they wouldn't - after all the insurance company has been paid to pay out if something like this happens, any other money received should be neither here nor there (I hope).

[Andy Hayter]

42 minutes ago, Mark said:

40k sounds like a lot of money, but just go and do a simple valuation of your stock at current list prices. It is quite scary!

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

and that of course assumes that you can still find said items of stock on auction sites together with quite possibly a whole range of add-ons/replacement parts made by cottage industries that have long since gone.   I am sure that I have items that could only be replaced in entirety if it were possible to commission someone to 3D print various parts that have been added.

[mr roarke]

On 18/05/2019 at 17:18, guzzler17 said:

Could the CMRA, Market Deeping MRC is a member, organise a show or two where all the proceeds go to the affected parties?

 

If there is something near to me I'd bundle a layout in the car and waive any expenses.

Gutted with this incident.

  I am also willing to take a layout f/o/c to anything that might be be organised.

[ianLMS]

I was very saddened to hear of the news. Vandalism is a mindless act but a common one and has been for years. Not often of this scale thankfully but it happens a lot and affects thousands of people each year. £40k will help but i know i would be gutted if my layout was destroyed. The greatest loss would be if some of the victims lose heart and dont return to the hobby or dont exhibit again. Security is costly but maybe the £40k+ can help fund it for future exhibitions. 

[PhilJ W]

The question of overnight security is a tricky one. Our show is similar in many respects to the Stamford show. It is held on school premises and we book (and pay for) time to set up on Friday evening. A condition of that is that we vacate the premises at 10 pm and we are not allowed entry until 7 am the following morning. A similar arrangement probably applied in this case. If it did so the school would be responsible for security between those hours, something that the insurance companies will certainly look at. The concern is the long term effects, if the school or their insurers have to pick up the tab will they in future not allow any such shows?  

[ruggedpeak]

As a caution, if anyone is thinking of having people in a building overnight and sleeping you will need to make sure suitable fire safety arrangements are in place. Most office/school/commercial buildings do not meet the required fire safety standards for sleeping accommodation. A suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment for the proposed use would need to be in place. If they are awake all night then there isn't an issue, but be aware as the penalties for non-compliance are severe.

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

"No longer allowed". By whom?

 

 

Insurance companies.

For reasons of fire risk and in the case of schools, data security, usually.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Martin S-C
Edited to remove speculation at Admins request.

[AY Mod]

Can we please leave speculative comments regarding insurance out of the topic?

[Wellyboots]

The JustGiving donations have just gone over £50000, the hateful act of 4 has been eclipsed by the kindness of more than 3000.

[Trains4U]

18 minutes ago, Wellyboots said:

The JustGiving donations have just gone over £50000, the hateful act of 4 has been eclipsed by the kindness of more than 3000.

 

 

And no sign of it slowing...

 

I was chatting with Peter Davies last night (MDMRC Chairman) and he is absolutely blown away by the generosity shown by so many people - and donations were at about £25k at that point.

There have also been many direct offers of replacement stock and expertise.

 

This will allow them to help all those affected, and also have a transformative effect on the club itself.

 

Its heartening to see some good being realised from this tragedy.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Trains4U
(Typo)

[Martin S-C]

3 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Its heartening to see some good being realised from this tragedy.

Agreed. Its a revelation to experience the goodness that is inside people. It makes the original act, while terrible, seem somewhat pathetic. The Market Deeping Club will surely grow stronger out of this.