Jump to content
 

Soldering problem


Recommended Posts

I have a 50W iron with variable temperature settings (Atten SA50). Despite using plenty of flux I seem to be unable to get the solder to flow well enough to reliably connect droppers to a rail. Any suggestions as to the best temperature setting to use? It goes from 200 to 500 C

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which bit of the rail are you soldering to?   I have terrible trouble soldering to the bottom of the rail using Peco code 100 rail, so generally I solder to the side (outside) which is ugly but makes it easier to re solder when the connection breaks, usually every 3 years or so outside.  Code 55 N gauge is a lot easier but you are in good company having issues.  As a general rule the older the solder the better, lower melting point,  it is, modern stuff sees the sleepers curl up and die before the solder melts.  My strategy is to minimise fishplates by using the longest pieces of rail I can. No building up track using  2" or 12" chunks when a 3ft length can be cut down to suit.    Treating rails and sleepers separately also helps, slip the sleepers back away from the place you are trying to solder and then thread them back on when you have a good joint.  If you have laid the track before trying to solder the droppers then soldering to the sides is the only way.   Worst case scenario, re soldering the dropper when temperature is around 0, on the outside branch, in the dark when the rain is starting to fall.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, meil said:

Clean - well tined tip.

Good quality leaded solder or better still, if you can afford it, silver leaded solder.

350deg

 

Agreed as above.

Also make sure that the rail is clean as well - use a glass fibre pen to clean it first.

 

  • Agree 3
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is 50W behind the iron, then the problem is likely to be a combination of:

  • oxide on the rail, meaning nothing for solder to get a hold of.  Rail needs cleaning with something abrasive where the joint is to be made - wet&dry on a stick, or fibre brush. 
  • insufficient heat transfer, might be too small a tip on the iron, insufficiently "wet" (liquid solder surface) iron to transfer the heat, oxide on iron (so clean tip), not heating rail enough to make solder flow.  Within reason, a bigger tip is easier to transfer heat than a smaller tip. 
  • wrong sort of solder - what's its composition and temperature range ?   I'd be using 60:40 lead/tin solder, possibly with a trace of silver in it. 

I'd aim to tin the rail first, then bring the wire in afterwards with a touch more solder to attach it to the pre-tinned rail.  Temperature on the iron, if its vaguely accurate, somewhere in the 250-300 C range.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Agree 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Get yourself a fibreglass brush like this (others are available) and swish it back and forth where you want to solder, then tin the rail and you won’t need any additional flux if you are using rosin core solder

 

oops, forgot link!

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modelcraft-PBU2137-Glass-Fibre-Pencil/dp/B000UZ8VNS/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=fibreglass+pen&qid=1558192675&s=gateway&sprefix=fibreglass+&sr=8-2

 

Edited by WIMorrison
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, Imustbemadatmyage said:

Dcc concepts flux. Definitely for this type of work. NOT plumbing flux! 

 

I have no experience with Concepts flux as I don`t need to......

 

...but I have done a load of droppers in all gauges over the years.....

 

DSC02377.JPG.07ab3ce4d0315927cb733c763421f6e2.JPG

 

 

 

DSC02374.JPG.0be0e6d1326f584ff83c41d964a67f28.JPG

 

So if you have tarnished rail I would find a cheep small screw driver and file into a scraper tool...

 

then use a really strong, disolve your skin away, allergic to the touch acid flux...I use Carrs Green label or mega strong Bakers Fluid  which will bite through the tarnish and facilitate the solder to flow....

 

then plenty of heat  40 to 60 watt..... with a leaded solder

 

get you self some of these....

 

DSC02749.JPG.d5209bd148cb5fb853d548e308e34f93.JPG

 

........as a heat sink either side of your soldering to avoid damage to surrounding to the track..... and away you go with just a quick in and out with the soldering iron ( put the solder on the tip of the iron first.....)

 

Cheers

 

johnny rosspop

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Am I missing something here? I never use flux for electrical work these days and have used the solder in the attached photo (in lieu of silver solder)  with a 40W (non-temperature controlled) Antex iron on my outbuilding located N/S track with no problems for some years.

 

Essential pointers:

  • WEAR EYESHIELDS 
  • Thoroughly clean rail side (or underside) with glass fibre pen - BE CAREFUL not to inhale closely as the tiny fibres can get anywhere, in your skin, eyes and mouth. 
  • Wipe tip of iron on damp sponge
  • Tin tip of soldering iron
  • Apply dab of solder to rail
  • Tin end of wire
  • Briefly wipe iron tip on sponge and tin tip again
  • Hold wire against the solder on the rail and apply iron to both

Apologies if all that is "egg sucking".

 

 

image1_1558250024193.jpeg

Edited by Right Away
More spelling issues!
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always used 3-core resin flux lead solder and never had a problem soldering to anything. The secret is cleanliness of the parts to be joined. As stated a fibreglass pencil is ideal for shining things up, but watch out for those fibres which will irritate skin, eyes and all.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

So many replies, so many different opinions......

 

For what it's worth, here's mine.  First, as almost everyone has said, make sure the rail is clean.  I use a fibreglass brush.

I too have a soldering station, variable between 200 and 500 degrees.  For almost everything except white metal I keep it hot, about 450 degrees - quickly in and quickly out.  And even though I often use cored solder, I always use flux as well, usually Carr's Green Lable.

So first I'd tin the rail.  I must admit that I haven't soldered N gauge rail before, but the principles are the same.  Apply some flux to the rail web - I always try to do it on the side of the rail away from the viewer so that if I make a mess of it it won't be visible!  But I like to keep it neat if possible.  Then I load a hot (450+ degree) soldering iron and a small bit - I like a chisel bit, narrow as possible without being an actual point - with a small bit of solder and apply it to the rail - with a hot iron and flux it should flow fairly quickly, as soon as it does remove the iron as you don't want to melt the plastic chairs and sleepers.  Then tin the end of the dropper wire.

After that, possibly a touch more flux, apply the tinned end of the dropper wire to the the tinned rail (it can be difficult holding the two together and soldering at the same time!), load a little more solder onto the iron, and apply it to the rail/wire.  As these are already tinned, you should get a join pretty quickly.  I do like Rosspop's idea of using metal clips as heatsinks - I'd never heard of that before and will definitely try it in future.

And if you've got a little section of rail spare, try it out on that first - there's nothing like practice to make perfect!

 

DT

Link to post
Share on other sites

we just finished 100s of dropper onto the bottom of PECO rail.  ( anybody can solder to teh side ) 

 

 

(a) cut away 2-3mm of the web, just enough to get the iron head in

 

(b) rub the area with a file to create a bit of grip 

 

(c) tin both sides , ie the rail bottom and the wire 

 

(d) I then bend the wire through 90 degrees 

 

(e) and usually using NO additional solder, bring the wire to the rail and bring the iron to the wire 

 

I use a Hakko 50W with a 3mm chisel bit and Sn63Pb37 (eutectic) flux cored solder 

no issues 

Edited by Junctionmad
  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There are few mysteries about soldering wire to rail other than good practice.

 

Starting with having a clean tip on your soldering iron, using a good flux and tinning both items, plus go easy on the amount of solder used

Link to post
Share on other sites

As above, use a good quality cored solder designed for electrical work. There's no need for any extra flux. a 50W iron is good. Use a large bit (at least 3mm), clean and tinned to ensure good heat transfer. Pre-tin the wire if you want. Clean the rail.

 

Apply the solder to the joint, do not carry it to the joint on the iron.

 

Then, counting, in with the iron - 2 -3, in with the solder - 2 - 3. remove iron and solder and do not disturb the joint for a few seconds. Any more than 2 or 3 seconds and you start to risk melting sleepers. This indicates that the heat is not flowing from the iron to the rail.


Rail is a quite effective heatsink, which is what causes the most difficulty once everything is clean. Does the iron actually monitor the tip temp., and quickly adjust the power to maintain it? That's the difference with a good quality iron.

 

It sometimes helps to have three or more hands :)

 

Edited by Crosland
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Crosland said:

Apply the solder to the joint, do not carry it to the joint on the iron...........It sometimes helps to have three or more hands :)

 

 

Yes - one hand holding the solder to the joint, one hand holding the sodering iron, and one hand holding the wire to the rail.......I entirely agree that ideally one should apply the solder to the joint rather than carrying it there on the iron - it's what I now always try to do when building a kit - but this is one case where, especially if soldering in situ, I've found it virtually impossible.

 

DT

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 18/05/2019 at 16:51, ROSSPOP said:

 

I have no experience with Concepts flux as I don`t need to......

 

...but I have done a load of droppers in all gauges over the years.....

 

DSC02377.JPG.07ab3ce4d0315927cb733c763421f6e2.JPG

 

 

 

DSC02374.JPG.0be0e6d1326f584ff83c41d964a67f28.JPG

 

So if you have tarnished rail I would find a cheep small screw driver and file into a scraper tool...

 

then use a really strong, disolve your skin away, allergic to the touch acid flux...I use Carrs Green label or mega strong Bakers Fluid  which will bite through the tarnish and facilitate the solder to flow....

 

then plenty of heat  40 to 60 watt..... with a leaded solder

 

get you self some of these....

 

DSC02749.JPG.d5209bd148cb5fb853d548e308e34f93.JPG

 

........as a heat sink either side of your soldering to avoid damage to surrounding to the track..... and away you go with just a quick in and out with the soldering iron ( put the solder on the tip of the iron first.....)

 

Cheers

 

johnny rosspop

 

Neat soldering - but unusual to solder one of the wires to the inside/running edge of the rails ?  unless of course access to the far side of the rail was limited/awkward ? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I admit to having many years' experience in electronics assembly, but even so I simply can't understand why it's such a problem for so many people.  All I do is ...

 

Strip the end of the wire and tin it

Tin the spot on the rail where the wire's going to go (be that on the side or the bottom, Peco Code 100 or 75)

Bring tinned end of wire into contact with tinned area of rail, apply tip of iron for 2-3 seconds

Job done, and with only two hands.

 

Used to use a 40w Antex temp-controlled (soldering station) iron set at about 80% max but when that packed up I switched to a bog standard Antex 25w mains non-temp-controlled iron with a 2.3mm tip.  I'm still using plain old Multicore brand 60/40 tin/lead solder.  No flux, no cleaning of the rail first unless it's got paint or obvious contaminant on it, no problem melting sleepers.

 

Not posting to say what a clever person I am; simply to say that the above is all I do and have ever done, and I honestly cannot understand why if it works for me as well as it does, others have the problems they do.

 

Edited by spikey
clarity
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
33 minutes ago, tractor_37260 said:

 

Neat soldering - but unusual to solder one of the wires to the inside/running edge of the rails ?  unless of course access to the far side of the rail was limited/awkward ? 

 

..............  R.  Butt. ...................

 

Now ya see it......

 

DSC02374.JPG.9735bae8d4491e88cef24abaea22a818.JPG

 

 

 

Now ya don`t..........

 

 

DSC02375.JPG.5b26d5617a6e3c238d43ce7cc3e9f89c.JPG

  • Craftsmanship/clever 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Hmm, this topic does come up often. Ok, I use rail rather than ready made track, but before I assemble the track I clean the rail with a cloth with a spot of IPA on it to remove any traces of oil from the rolling process. I also think it's not just me, its something almost instinctively done. 

 

So I wonder if the problems folk have is due to a slight oil film on the rail left over from the manufacturing process with ready to lay track ? If so a quick clean with a cotton bud might help. 

 

I then solder to the bottom of the rail as described above.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 22/05/2019 at 14:20, Torper said:

 

I entirely agree that ideally one should apply the solder to the joint rather than carrying it there on the iron - it's what I now always try to do when building a kit

 

Kit building is usually done with non-cored solder and separate flux, in which case carrying the solder on the iron is perfectly OK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrators
11 minutes ago, Crosland said:

Kit building is usually done with non-cored solder and separate flux, in which case carrying the solder on the iron is perfectly OK.

 

I've always made etched kits with cored solder augmented with 100-degree stuff and low-melt. I always carry it on the bit as well. I am a bad person. But the kits are OK.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...