Imustbemadatmyage Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 I have a 50W iron with variable temperature settings (Atten SA50). Despite using plenty of flux I seem to be unable to get the solder to flow well enough to reliably connect droppers to a rail. Any suggestions as to the best temperature setting to use? It goes from 200 to 500 C Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 Clean - well tined tip. Good quality leaded solder or better still, if you can afford it, silver leaded solder. 350deg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2019 What flux are you using?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imustbemadatmyage Posted May 18, 2019 Author Share Posted May 18, 2019 34 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said: What flux are you using?? Dcc concepts flux. Definitely for this type of work. NOT plumbing flux! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 Which bit of the rail are you soldering to? I have terrible trouble soldering to the bottom of the rail using Peco code 100 rail, so generally I solder to the side (outside) which is ugly but makes it easier to re solder when the connection breaks, usually every 3 years or so outside. Code 55 N gauge is a lot easier but you are in good company having issues. As a general rule the older the solder the better, lower melting point, it is, modern stuff sees the sleepers curl up and die before the solder melts. My strategy is to minimise fishplates by using the longest pieces of rail I can. No building up track using 2" or 12" chunks when a 3ft length can be cut down to suit. Treating rails and sleepers separately also helps, slip the sleepers back away from the place you are trying to solder and then thread them back on when you have a good joint. If you have laid the track before trying to solder the droppers then soldering to the sides is the only way. Worst case scenario, re soldering the dropper when temperature is around 0, on the outside branch, in the dark when the rain is starting to fall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted May 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2019 1 hour ago, meil said: Clean - well tined tip. Good quality leaded solder or better still, if you can afford it, silver leaded solder. 350deg Agreed as above. Also make sure that the rail is clean as well - use a glass fibre pen to clean it first. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Imustbemadatmyage said: Dcc concepts flux. Definitely for this type of work. NOT plumbing flux! Are we attempting soldering to DCC Concepts stainless steel rail by any chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imustbemadatmyage Posted May 18, 2019 Author Share Posted May 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: Are we attempting soldering to DCC Concepts stainless steel rail by any chance? Definitely not. It's Peco N code 55 flexi. I realise that soldering to stainless steel is harder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 If there is 50W behind the iron, then the problem is likely to be a combination of: oxide on the rail, meaning nothing for solder to get a hold of. Rail needs cleaning with something abrasive where the joint is to be made - wet&dry on a stick, or fibre brush. insufficient heat transfer, might be too small a tip on the iron, insufficiently "wet" (liquid solder surface) iron to transfer the heat, oxide on iron (so clean tip), not heating rail enough to make solder flow. Within reason, a bigger tip is easier to transfer heat than a smaller tip. wrong sort of solder - what's its composition and temperature range ? I'd be using 60:40 lead/tin solder, possibly with a trace of silver in it. I'd aim to tin the rail first, then bring the wire in afterwards with a touch more solder to attach it to the pre-tinned rail. Temperature on the iron, if its vaguely accurate, somewhere in the 250-300 C range. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) Get yourself a fibreglass brush like this (others are available) and swish it back and forth where you want to solder, then tin the rail and you won’t need any additional flux if you are using rosin core solder oops, forgot link! https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modelcraft-PBU2137-Glass-Fibre-Pencil/dp/B000UZ8VNS/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=fibreglass+pen&qid=1558192675&s=gateway&sprefix=fibreglass+&sr=8-2 Edited May 18, 2019 by WIMorrison 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Imustbemadatmyage said: Dcc concepts flux. Definitely for this type of work. NOT plumbing flux! I have no experience with Concepts flux as I don`t need to...... ...but I have done a load of droppers in all gauges over the years..... So if you have tarnished rail I would find a cheep small screw driver and file into a scraper tool... then use a really strong, disolve your skin away, allergic to the touch acid flux...I use Carrs Green label or mega strong Bakers Fluid which will bite through the tarnish and facilitate the solder to flow.... then plenty of heat 40 to 60 watt..... with a leaded solder get you self some of these.... ........as a heat sink either side of your soldering to avoid damage to surrounding to the track..... and away you go with just a quick in and out with the soldering iron ( put the solder on the tip of the iron first.....) Cheers johnny rosspop 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted May 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2019 (edited) Am I missing something here? I never use flux for electrical work these days and have used the solder in the attached photo (in lieu of silver solder) with a 40W (non-temperature controlled) Antex iron on my outbuilding located N/S track with no problems for some years. Essential pointers: WEAR EYESHIELDS Thoroughly clean rail side (or underside) with glass fibre pen - BE CAREFUL not to inhale closely as the tiny fibres can get anywhere, in your skin, eyes and mouth. Wipe tip of iron on damp sponge Tin tip of soldering iron Apply dab of solder to rail Tin end of wire Briefly wipe iron tip on sponge and tin tip again Hold wire against the solder on the rail and apply iron to both Apologies if all that is "egg sucking". Edited May 19, 2019 by Right Away More spelling issues! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 I have always used 3-core resin flux lead solder and never had a problem soldering to anything. The secret is cleanliness of the parts to be joined. As stated a fibreglass pencil is ideal for shining things up, but watch out for those fibres which will irritate skin, eyes and all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted May 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19, 2019 So many replies, so many different opinions...... For what it's worth, here's mine. First, as almost everyone has said, make sure the rail is clean. I use a fibreglass brush. I too have a soldering station, variable between 200 and 500 degrees. For almost everything except white metal I keep it hot, about 450 degrees - quickly in and quickly out. And even though I often use cored solder, I always use flux as well, usually Carr's Green Lable. So first I'd tin the rail. I must admit that I haven't soldered N gauge rail before, but the principles are the same. Apply some flux to the rail web - I always try to do it on the side of the rail away from the viewer so that if I make a mess of it it won't be visible! But I like to keep it neat if possible. Then I load a hot (450+ degree) soldering iron and a small bit - I like a chisel bit, narrow as possible without being an actual point - with a small bit of solder and apply it to the rail - with a hot iron and flux it should flow fairly quickly, as soon as it does remove the iron as you don't want to melt the plastic chairs and sleepers. Then tin the end of the dropper wire. After that, possibly a touch more flux, apply the tinned end of the dropper wire to the the tinned rail (it can be difficult holding the two together and soldering at the same time!), load a little more solder onto the iron, and apply it to the rail/wire. As these are already tinned, you should get a join pretty quickly. I do like Rosspop's idea of using metal clips as heatsinks - I'd never heard of that before and will definitely try it in future. And if you've got a little section of rail spare, try it out on that first - there's nothing like practice to make perfect! DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) we just finished 100s of dropper onto the bottom of PECO rail. ( anybody can solder to teh side ) I (a) cut away 2-3mm of the web, just enough to get the iron head in (b) rub the area with a file to create a bit of grip (c) tin both sides , ie the rail bottom and the wire (d) I then bend the wire through 90 degrees (e) and usually using NO additional solder, bring the wire to the rail and bring the iron to the wire I use a Hakko 50W with a 3mm chisel bit and Sn63Pb37 (eutectic) flux cored solder no issues Edited May 21, 2019 by Junctionmad 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 There are few mysteries about soldering wire to rail other than good practice. Starting with having a clean tip on your soldering iron, using a good flux and tinning both items, plus go easy on the amount of solder used Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 The best video I have seen about soldering irons is the following Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) As above, use a good quality cored solder designed for electrical work. There's no need for any extra flux. a 50W iron is good. Use a large bit (at least 3mm), clean and tinned to ensure good heat transfer. Pre-tin the wire if you want. Clean the rail. Apply the solder to the joint, do not carry it to the joint on the iron. Then, counting, in with the iron - 2 -3, in with the solder - 2 - 3. remove iron and solder and do not disturb the joint for a few seconds. Any more than 2 or 3 seconds and you start to risk melting sleepers. This indicates that the heat is not flowing from the iron to the rail. Rail is a quite effective heatsink, which is what causes the most difficulty once everything is clean. Does the iron actually monitor the tip temp., and quickly adjust the power to maintain it? That's the difference with a good quality iron. It sometimes helps to have three or more hands Edited May 22, 2019 by Crosland 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Crosland said: Apply the solder to the joint, do not carry it to the joint on the iron...........It sometimes helps to have three or more hands Yes - one hand holding the solder to the joint, one hand holding the sodering iron, and one hand holding the wire to the rail.......I entirely agree that ideally one should apply the solder to the joint rather than carrying it there on the iron - it's what I now always try to do when building a kit - but this is one case where, especially if soldering in situ, I've found it virtually impossible. DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 18/05/2019 at 16:51, ROSSPOP said: I have no experience with Concepts flux as I don`t need to...... ...but I have done a load of droppers in all gauges over the years..... So if you have tarnished rail I would find a cheep small screw driver and file into a scraper tool... then use a really strong, disolve your skin away, allergic to the touch acid flux...I use Carrs Green label or mega strong Bakers Fluid which will bite through the tarnish and facilitate the solder to flow.... then plenty of heat 40 to 60 watt..... with a leaded solder get you self some of these.... ........as a heat sink either side of your soldering to avoid damage to surrounding to the track..... and away you go with just a quick in and out with the soldering iron ( put the solder on the tip of the iron first.....) Cheers johnny rosspop Neat soldering - but unusual to solder one of the wires to the inside/running edge of the rails ? unless of course access to the far side of the rail was limited/awkward ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) OK, I admit to having many years' experience in electronics assembly, but even so I simply can't understand why it's such a problem for so many people. All I do is ... Strip the end of the wire and tin it Tin the spot on the rail where the wire's going to go (be that on the side or the bottom, Peco Code 100 or 75) Bring tinned end of wire into contact with tinned area of rail, apply tip of iron for 2-3 seconds Job done, and with only two hands. Used to use a 40w Antex temp-controlled (soldering station) iron set at about 80% max but when that packed up I switched to a bog standard Antex 25w mains non-temp-controlled iron with a 2.3mm tip. I'm still using plain old Multicore brand 60/40 tin/lead solder. No flux, no cleaning of the rail first unless it's got paint or obvious contaminant on it, no problem melting sleepers. Not posting to say what a clever person I am; simply to say that the above is all I do and have ever done, and I honestly cannot understand why if it works for me as well as it does, others have the problems they do. Edited May 22, 2019 by spikey clarity 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, tractor_37260 said: Neat soldering - but unusual to solder one of the wires to the inside/running edge of the rails ? unless of course access to the far side of the rail was limited/awkward ? .............. R. Butt. ................... Now ya see it...... Now ya don`t.......... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave John Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hmm, this topic does come up often. Ok, I use rail rather than ready made track, but before I assemble the track I clean the rail with a cloth with a spot of IPA on it to remove any traces of oil from the rolling process. I also think it's not just me, its something almost instinctively done. So I wonder if the problems folk have is due to a slight oil film on the rail left over from the manufacturing process with ready to lay track ? If so a quick clean with a cotton bud might help. I then solder to the bottom of the rail as described above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 On 22/05/2019 at 14:20, Torper said: I entirely agree that ideally one should apply the solder to the joint rather than carrying it there on the iron - it's what I now always try to do when building a kit Kit building is usually done with non-cored solder and separate flux, in which case carrying the solder on the iron is perfectly OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted May 24, 2019 Administrators Share Posted May 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, Crosland said: Kit building is usually done with non-cored solder and separate flux, in which case carrying the solder on the iron is perfectly OK. I've always made etched kits with cored solder augmented with 100-degree stuff and low-melt. I always carry it on the bit as well. I am a bad person. But the kits are OK. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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