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New Irish Lines May 2019 issue


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This is a bi-annual subscription magazine covering the modelling of Irish railways.

Some of the content will be familiar to readers of this forum or the Irish Railway Modeller forum but other material is new, certainly to me. This includes a German gentleman modelling Kilkenny, in 21mm gauge.

Ballyglunin (better known as 'Castletown' in the Quiet Man movie) is the subject of the Station Survey. Plans of the station building are included as an insert.

The series of Great Southern steam loco drawings have moved on to some of the early railcars, specifically the Sential and Clayton versions. A drawing of the Turf Burner is also included; why can't we let that contraption just go?!

 

All in all, a good and useful issue.

 

Glover

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Having just subscribed I look forward to receiving my copy.

 

I'm slowly working my through the on-line archive, which a great resource in itself and I welcome the fact that it is accessible to anyone.

 

Although my interest in Irish Railways is very focused (SL&NCR) I'm more than happy to support this enterprise.

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Drawings of the Turf Burner are relatively easy to find, but drawings for the Clayton seem to be non existent, so think I might have to join.The Sentinels are virtually idetical to some of the LNER ones, but with deeper skirts.
I downloaded the archive copies, but for drawings, some can be extracted for printing, others are not so easy. I only want them for personal use to create my 3D printed models,and bought a lot of drawings from IRRS as well. I still find errors in original drawings so always try to find good photos. The works drawing for GNR(I) railcar B is one I found errors on(end view did not match up with plan view) and there are very few photos.

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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1 hour ago, rue_d_etropal said:

The works drawing for GNR(I) railcar B is one I found errors on(end view did not match up with plan view) and there are very few photos.

 

Hi Simon,

 

I am something of a student of GNR(I) Railcars and coaching stock. When you say that the end view did not match with the plan, may I point out the following about GNR drawings. When it came to recording alterations made to a vehicle on the 'Works Drawing', frequently only the 'floor plan' on the original drawing was shown altered by an overlay. Sides and ends were left unaltered on the drawing. I evidence this statement by referring you to the drawing for classification 'D 5' (Brake/First) as altered for the role of a BUT Railcar trailer in 1957.

 

The floor plan on the amended drawing shows amongst other things, the installation of the train heating pant, the movement of the guard's compartment and the reduction of passenger compartments from four to three. However the side view and end on the same drawing are left unaltered. This caused our friend Kirley no end of problems when he was building his BUT trailer 'D 5',  where, by way of example, the side view showed a window where there was in fact now a door. Silverfox Models appear to have fallen into a similar trap, whereby their model of a 'D 5' (from what I can make out from their own photograph) appears to be a 'D 5' as originally built in 1948, yet presented in a post 1956 GNR 'Railcar' livery, which an unaltered 'D 5' would never have worn.

 

Railcar 'B' was badly damaged in 1943 in an accident at Banbridge. It was taken to Dundalk Works, where the repair decision was a long time in waiting. Eventually circa 1948, the engine and transmission were removed and it was altered to an Second Open hauled carriage. Could your drawing be a mix of the original build and the 1948 alteration?

 

=========================================================================================================

Sorry, just found your other thread under CAD drawing and I now understand what the problem is. Unable to help with that one.

 

Steve

 

 

Edited by Lambeg Man
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It is amixture. In fact I have drawings of al 3 versions. One from IRRS(done at time extra doors fitted), another as a trailer coach , again from IRRS, and one showing it in original condition , I assume, from Diesel Dawn. All are from original drawings. There is also some discrepancy with respect to side window in one drawing, but I am not sure about that so ignored it. One of the drawings has a very clear plan view showing window positions. The windows in end drawings don't quite match up, and I only realised when I was trying to work out radiator on original version, as it was too wide to fit gap between windows.

There might have been a number of alterations but changing windows in ends would not really have served any useful purpose.

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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Simon,

 

I do not know if any of the following may be of any use to you, coupled to your own research, but here are my notes about both Railcar 'A' and 'B':

 

Railcar A
 
As built in 1932, the passenger compartment had one single door and one double door on each side and eight square shaped windows, which resembled the windows in contemporary AEC Regent I and Leyland Titan TD1 double-deck buses of the GNR. The Railcar and all subsequent diesel trains were painted in an attractive Oxford blue and off-white livery, a livery that was initially used on the GNR omnibus fleet.

 

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The interior of Railcar A as built, looking away from the engine end. Note the rather plush seating for Third class. – Photographer unknown

 

Initially all were seats fixed (in 2+2 format) and facing towards the engine end. Heating was by using engine cooling water and an engine radiator with the “AEC” insignia was fitted at each end. The revised seating  (3+2 format) of 1935-ish comprised of five rows of non-reversible seats facing in one direction and five rows in the other. In the 1936 coaching book the engine horsepower was noted lower than as built. It would be of interest to know the source of the drawings of Railcar A which featured in Locomotives of the GNR(I) and Diesel Dawn. The first shows the car with the post 1939 seating arrangement and with the AEC radiators still fitted. The latter appears to be the same drawing, but shows the car with the roof mounted radiators. Harry Wilson gives 12/37 as the date the AEC engine was replaced and one would have thought the radiator position would have been changed then. However, as the re-positioning of this feature on Railcar B took place in 1940, it may be that the alteration to A (with other work) was carried out in 1939.

 

Railcar B

 

On entering traffic in late 1932, like Railcar A, Railcar B returned a fuel consumption of 8 to 10 mpg. When built, again like Railcar A, it possibly had a radiator at each end (it certainly had at least one), but the only single published photograph (undated) of Railcar B shows it with a roof radiator. The post-1935 seating, unlike like that in Railcar A, was reversible. The roof mounted radiators may have been fitted as part of the 1940 re-engining, but there is a possibility that this exercise was carried out on both A and B at an earlier date. The re-engining may have coincided with the fitting of a separate small Ford engine to power the exhauster for the vacuum brakes and like Railcar A, a single door at the non-engined end was replaced with a double door and which explains the reduction of two seats. Heating was probably provided by using engine cooling water, but the 1940 drawing shows that a Clayton warm air heater (electrical) was fitted to this vehicle in the front bulkhead. The Railcar was initially based at Portadown and appears in 1930’s film footage arriving in Armagh.

 

In the 1936 GNR(I) Coaching Book a number of six-wheeler carriages were noted as “For working with Railcar B”. By June 1943 it was working the Scarva-Banbridge branch service, when a brake failure caused a smash into the buffers at Banbridge station. The Railcar apparently suffered heavy damage to the engine and transmission. It was subsequently taken to Dundalk Works where it lay in damaged condition until 1946, when the engine and transmission were removed. As this was three years after the accident, presumably there may have been some thought given to repairing it. However, it was to be 1948 before the decision was taken to re-commission the body as a hauled coach. It was given the coaching classification L 16 and the running number 500 in the general coaching list. It retained the GNR blue/white “Railcar” livery. It is understood that, as altered to a hauled vehicle, this coach was deployed to bring and return Dundalk Works staff from stations and halts on the Dundalk-Ballybay section. ‘Mac’ Arnold notes October 1948 as the date for commission as a hauled vehicle and it appears it was withdrawn from traffic circa 1950. ‘Mac’ notes a final withdrawal date as being January 1955, which may be when it was scrapped.

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thanks. It is odd that there are so few pictures of railcar B. The one in Diesel Dawn is only one I have found. It looks like it is before extra side doors were fitted, but it looks like there is something mounted on the roof, unless that is just part of background. Railcar B might not have been successful, but it was the first diesel electric railcar I believe.

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Yes Simon, it is the only photograph I have seen of Railcar 'B'. It is also reproduced in Locomotives of the GNR(I) which likewise gives no date. However it it obviously pre-1940. I think we are looking at the non-engine end and the roof radiators are seen at the other end.

 

I do not known which drawing you are looking at, but mine is a 'Works' drawing dated 1932, with "altered 4/1940" added. However the front and side profile in the upper half of the drawing show it already altered with the roof mounted radiators and a large waist level headlight mounted in the centre of each end. This feature is missing from the 'floor plan' in the lower half of the drawing, which shows the 1940 alterations, double doors replacing the single door we see in the photograph.

 

There is a VERY brief clip of it in one of the Huntley film's, but again no date is given, so little is learnt from that.

 

Regards

 

Steve  

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is the film online? 

Granted these railcars were trying out new ideas, but the roof placed radiators are reminiscent of whahat haad been tried on earlier railcars in Britain. Obviously the problem with a traditionally placed radiater is reverse running and creating enough cold air to keep the radiator cool. The French were way ahead by this time, and simply used an air duct on the roof. Interestingly the plan view in Diesels Dawn is marked 'air duct' at non motor end, so there may have been a pseudo radiator at that end,as the side drawing does suggest some form of protrusion at both ends.

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On 18/05/2019 at 16:33, Glover said:

This is a bi-annual subscription magazine covering the modelling of Irish railways.

 

I recently reestablished my subscription after forgetting to renew. I subscribed (paypal) through the website https://newirishlines.org/. The blog seems not to have been updated for a couple of years but as mentioned above the online archive is accessible to non-subscribers.

 

John

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Ah yes, I had not spotted that before now (the air duct). The other thing to bear in mind was that both Railcars 'A' and 'B' were designed by George Glover (a steam man by training), whereas the later alterations (roof mounted radiators, etc.) show the hand of his successor George Howden (a civil engineer by trade).

 

Of the top of my head I can not remember exactly where I saw it (the film clip), but I will have a hunt and let you know.

 

 

Again from my own notes:

 

In the late 1920’s the CDRJC had introduced a number of petrol driven Railcars. Two of these, No.4 (1928) and No. 6 (1930) were produced by the Dundalk Works. In 1930/31 the GNR produced the Committee’s Railcars No’s 7 and 8, the first diesel engined Railcars to operate in the British Isles. They each had a Gardner 6L2 diesel engine driving through a Thorneycroft gear box, with the bodywork built by O’Doherty’s of Strabane. Reporting the apparent success of these cars in a letter to the GNR(I) Board dated November 1931, Glover goes on to promote the idea of providing similarly powered vehicles for the parent system. The letter was reproduced in the IRRS Journal No. 149 and bears detailed examination as it gives a good indication as to how the GNR’s own Railcar programme began. The first thing that seems to have escaped previous commentators’ notice is that the proposed “Light Diesel Railcar” (which was the subject of the letter) was clearly not Glover’s first idea as to the type of Railcar the GNR(I) needed.

 

The letter starts;

“Previous discussions regarding Diesel-Electric Units have been concerning vehicles of a heavy Railway type, weighing approximately 48 tons, of 180-250 HP and capable of hauling a 25 ton trailer at a speed up to 55 miles per hour. The cost of such Units would be anything from £7,500 to £10,000.”

 

Such a concept goes beyond anything on the CDRJC that Glover had up then been involved with. So where did this initial idea for a broad gauge Railcar come from? Laurence Liddle has related how Glover went back to Newcastle upon Tyne most weekends, where it can be assumed he kept up contact with his former railway associates there. Interestingly in 1931 the Newcastle upon Tyne company of Armstrong Whitworth produced three Railcars as demonstrators, which were 60′ 0″ long bogie vehicles, powered by a diesel engine with electric transmission. They had the capacity for 60 passengers and a top speed of 65 mph. Each was intended to be capable of towing a trailer coach, but had a driving cab at each end to enable a quick turnaround when operating as a single unit. Did Glover view one of these units or did he even have the experience of travelling in one? Did he then consider that such a Railcar design might be suitable for the traffic needs of the GNR(I), for both main and subsidiary lines? The similarity between one of these Armstrong Whitworth cars and what the earlier GNR “discussions” focused on is strikingly noticeable.

 

image.png.bb35ec490e4cacf183a481209074b8a8.png

 

A GNR(I) might have been? The third Railcar produced by Armstrong Whitworth in 1931. – Copyright National Railway Museum

 

However, given the general economic depression of the day, Glover must have known the GNR(I) directors would be reluctant to approve such a high capital outlay on what was after all something of an experimental vehicle. However he appears to use the earlier proposal as a bench mark to sell the cheaper £2,700 “Light Diesel Railcar” option to his directors. In the letter Glover went on to highlight three possible theatres of operation for a “Light Diesel Railcar”. The first was the Banbridge-Newcastle line outside the summer months and the second was the Armagh-Goraghwood branch, both of which sound eminently feasible. However the third proposed use was somewhat extraordinary for a vehicle not even built. Based in Belfast, he suggested that such a Railcar could head out at 07.45 to Dundalk, talking up the stopping places served by the current Belfast-Dublin morning express service. Having arrived in Dundalk, the Railcar would then run to Omagh via Clones, providing a midday service on the Irish North Western route that was then nonexistent. Reaching Omagh the Railcar would be used to provide a late afternoon stopping service to Dungannon. On reaching Dungannon it would have a trip up the Cookstown branch, from where it would then make its way back to Belfast on stopping services. This daily roster as proposed would have involved approximately 263 miles a day for an untested vehicle. Ambitious as this proposal was, giving significant improvements to service schedules and low operating costs, this appears to be something of a sales pitch to the company directors!

 

In the outline drawing accompanying the article, the proposed car’s dimensions are 36′ 0″ long over body, 12′ 6″ high by 9′ 6″ wide. Seating is the same as the produced item at 32, but the body is shown made up of matchboard wooden panels, with four small folding doors in each corner and a three window front. The following year was to see both Railcars A and B built under George Glover’s superintendence. In the same year a more sophisticated articulated diesel Railcar was built for the CVR, also with a Gardner 6L2 engine. The traction unit for this car was built by Walkers of Wigan, but the GNR built the passenger bodywork at Dundalk.

 

 

Any additional thoughts Simon?

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

Edited by Lambeg Man
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The diesel engine was at the time still experimental, having only really proved its worth in small shunting locos. TheGardner diesel seems to have been the preferred choce for both road and rail(Scammell lorries only started fitting diesel engines in the 30s) and the diesel electric was even more experimental until Germany proved its worth in military use, and subsequently was banned from further development, hence the diesel hydralics.

On the whole for small railcars petrol was still the preferred option, and many of the experimental railcars in Britain were paid for by the manufacturers. Drewry produced some bogie railcars for Bermuda, again petrol, and they were hoping for more sales of that design. It might have been a good contender for Ireland.

Finding info on production railcars can be difficult, but experimental ones are often virtually impossible, especially if they are not that successful, and the companies would rather lose any info than have it pushed in their faces by competitors.

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Simon,

 

Who were "Gardner"? Were they a British company? I have come across the name "Gardner Edwards" (producers of Railcars in the 1930's), quoted somewhere as being a Belfast based company?

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Gardner produced diesel engines. I think by this time they were part of Leyland(or at least were working very closely with them). Leyland were trying to buy out every company at the time. Gardner were based in Manchester, not that far from companies such as Walkers.

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  • 2 weeks later...

received my copy the other day. very impresed, as digital version does not actually convey the print quality(good quality paper). Nice to see the Clayton drawings, but puzzled by the drawing of second one . Drawing and measurements suggest it is same length , but in Locomtives of the GSR it clearly says that 2 of the 6 were 2ft shorter than the others. I worked from the measurements as well as the LNER version I had already designed, as drawings are a bit off in places,with respect to window and door positions. The only place I can see could be shortened is the luggage area, but looking at the limited number of photos, I am not sure how it could be done as windows and doors are of standard sizes .

Also it does not look like sides were altered when converted to coaches, but somehow they squeezed a lot more seats into the coaches Even if one luggage space was converted topassenge use it would still be a struggle. Were the seats changed from 2+3 to 3+3?

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