Attic space

[davidw]

I've a great space for model railway in an attic space. 27ft X 15. But the joists are only 4 inches deep. If I floor it will I get cracked ceilings. What approach should I take. Apologies if I've placed this in the wrong area.

Edited May 21, 2019 by davidw

[timward55]

You will get told - quite rightly - that it is not the right thing to do. On the other hand, that is exactly what I did and I only have one or two little cracks :-)

[Kiwi]

I’m pretty sure the only approach you can take is to replace all the joists. I have the same issue unfortunately. Such a roof is not designed to carry any load. 

 

If you go ahead you will almost certainly invalidate your house insurance. Either way, get professional advice and accept it. Don’t listen to “I ignored the advice and (so far) got away with it” type suggestions. 

 

I do have minor cracks in part of my ceiling, just from necessary walking on the joists to access pipes. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Kiwi

[Joseph_Pestell]

15' span requires iirc 8" joists. So yes, 4" is hopelessly inadequate and will cause problems for the ceilings below.

 

For such a great space I would still think it worthwhile. But it does need serious work.

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, davidw said:

 But the joists are only 4 inches deep.

 

They are perfectly adequate to hold your ceiling up. They are not however, any good for flooring.

 

Seek professional advice before doing anything. structural works, Insulation, ventilation and fire escape are all important works that need dealing with. A properly constructed room can add value to your property, a bodge will devalue it.

[loickebros]

If you intend to turn it into a proper room there are allsorts of building regs to adhere to but if you are only going to access it by a loft ladder and don't want to go mad and change joists etc board it out and srew the boards down every 6 inches you will be surprised how solid that will make it.

Dave

[DCB]

You will find it difficult to get professional advice on a Model railway in the loft.  It doesn't tick any of the boxes.   Its not going to be a habitable room,  you aren't going to sleep in there, which is what 90% of the regs are about.    If you do convert it  then the wife will soon decide it would make an excellent bedroom and you will be relegated to the shed.

On the other hand a chap I knew did have his ceiling collapse when he stored too many motorbike parts in the loft.  It will probably be fine for years until you show half a dozen mates around at which point they may well descend into the bedrooms without using the ladder.  I have a loft layout. Too cold in winter, too hot in summer, too noisy when  kids are in bed, too inaccessible, the ceilings have indeed cracked slightly, but there s no other equivalent space available.  I just wish I had used Tongue and groove instead of flooring grade chip board to make a stronger floor and better spread the load over my undersized joists. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

They are perfectly adequate to hold your ceiling up. They are not however, any good for flooring.

 

Seek professional advice before doing anything. structural works, Insulation, ventilation and fire escape are all important works that need dealing with. A properly constructed room can add value to your property, a bodge will devalue it.

 

Exactly. But Dave and I have been here before on other similar threads.

 

There is only so much that we can say without some detailed drawings that show how those ceiling joists are supported. 4" only supports a ceiling. Depending on the room layout and load supporting walls below, there may be a fairly simple solution.

 

[RFS]

I faced the same problem but decided to bite the bullet and do a proper conversion. Not cheap but it has added to the value of the house, and I now have a proper railway room at the top of the house that is secure unlike a shed at the bottom of the garden. It's really only now when I get visited by grandchildren and their parents that I realize how difficult it would have been with the unconverted loft. It's made all the difference to my enjoyment of the hobby.

 

A couple of before and after pictures. Headroom at the centre is about 6ft (OK for me) and the space is 38ft x 10ft. RH side is storage yard due to the lower ceiling. 

 

Before

 

 

After

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by RFS

[Wheatley]

Do it properly or put it in the garage/shed. Apart from anything else it's much harder to fall out of a shed.

[DCB]

RFS's post highlights a problem with lofts, the roof slope. It is a real pain to get to tracks against the roof slope, not so much when in use but when trying to lay track and solder wires.   I am just under 6ft tall and I don't think I could work in his loft, my head would be against the roof all the time, though I suppose I could sit in an office chair and scoot along

 My loft gives around 13ft X 9 ft usable space at 3ft from the floor with the centre well over 7ft above the floor so I have to use a step ladder to reach the ceiling in the centre. It has an additional 3ft blocked by chimney breast and water tank.  If you are thinking of a loft conversion check how much usable space it gives not floor area, and factor on how much height you lose from the thicker joists and floor boards. 

[teaky]

If you're having trouble sleeping David there's a link in my signature to a thread documenting how I converted our attic which is a similar size.  Hope it helps.

Edited May 21, 2019 by teaky

[RFS]

26 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

RFS's post highlights a problem with lofts, the roof slope. It is a real pain to get to tracks against the roof slope, not so much when in use but when trying to lay track and solder wires.   I am just under 6ft tall and I don't think I could work in his loft, my head would be against the roof all the time, though I suppose I could sit in an office chair and scoot along

 My loft gives around 13ft X 9 ft usable space at 3ft from the floor with the centre well over 7ft above the floor so I have to use a step ladder to reach the ceiling in the centre. It has an additional 3ft blocked by chimney breast and water tank.  If you are thinking of a loft conversion check how much usable space it gives not floor area, and factor on how much height you lose from the thicker joists and floor boards. 

 

Agreed. But what's the alternative? To get a decent railway room the only option was to move house, or give up a large part of the garden to a big shed. On my layout the RH side is the storage area, and here's a picture of it during the building phase a few years ago.

 

 

Fitting droppers to the tracks nearest the roof took a bit of doing though, but only had to be done once. There are 16 roads with multiple blocks - I use Traincontroller to manage it and it moves trains up automatically when one leaves. 

 

The other side has more height as it's brought forward about a foot or so. In reality I only need to be upright in the centre of the room so I don't find height an issue. Here's the front - again under development!

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Having suffered a loft layout in my teens, which tore itself apart with expansion and contraction because of the temperature range, which made it uncomfortable for much of the year; even on cold winter days it was uncomfortably hot if the sun was out, and below freezing otherwise.  And, at the risk of sounding like a typical ancient curmudgeon, we had proper winters in those days, kids terday, don't know they're born..

 

I had previously had the layout banished to the garage, which was not quite as bad, but was evicted when father bought a cheap car that needed working up.  Since then, I have managed to stick to the principle that my railway must be housed in the living area of the home, where the environment is suitable for human occupation in terms of heating, ventilation, and humidity.  This has meant that for a good part of my life I have had to forego having a railway at all, but I have been re-assured that this is the correct approach by some time involved with a club that occupied unheated premises.  I deserve better than that for myself.

 

So, my opinion about loft or shed/garage layouts is that they are all very well, but you must spend a good bit of time and money making them habitable, at which time the household authorities have other ideas and boot you out.  Sadly, few UK homes really have the space for layouts, unlike the US where most homes have cellars the size of the building's footprint that can be used for such activity.  Modern, by which I mean post 1960s, British homes often do not have suitably built attics even for anything more than storage of light items.  Inglenooks and planks are one of the results.

 

A childhood friend whose layout I often visited who lived in a similar early Edwardian terrace to me had what I thought at the time was an excellent situation, a partitioned room about 10' x 8' for an 8' x 4' layout in an attic space, well insulated from the attic and effectively warmed and dehumidified by heat rising from the house below.  It was accessed by a retracting ladder in a ladder cupboard on the upstairs landing, separate from the trapdoor accessing the water header tank.  This made the room safe from the acquisitive eye of his mum!  I had much more space and a bigger, though not better, layout in my attic, and learned my lesson!