SP Steve Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) Wouldn't class it as good but you can see the general effect of the body side ribs as seen through the grills. Almost head on shot of front cab windows - the bottom edge of the two outer pains subtly follow the curve of the nose whilst the top edges are more linear in nature. Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmesfeldian Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Baby Deltic said: Speaking of abortions, cue Heljan's 'flat top' class 33 and 'Western wearing a baseball cap'. They have produced models that look wrong just like the Bachmann 24/0 and 25's. To Heljan's credit they have done a very good job on their new class 33 tooling as Bachmann have with their new class 24/1. I was modelling Joueff class 40s long before anybody else's came along so I can certainly empathise with the 'body shape' argument ! Having said that, after market white metal split box indicators and buffer beam pipework polished the turd somewhat! Ironically the bogie blue star connectors looked N scale on the Joueff and O scale on the Bachmann. I'm sure Heljan can do a better job with that particular fault! Edited March 2, 2020 by Holmesfeldian extra info 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 5 hours ago, Mophead45143 said: There's no need of that is there really, constructive criticism should not be bashed on a modelling forum. At no point in any of my posts have I been emotive or biased to either manufacturer - I have already apologised for any misunderstandings there. I am just trying to have a sensible discussion about modelling peaks, surely that's why anyone is on this thread?! If a model is in the design phase, it should be in a manufacturers interest to try and get it right. I have seen Ben from Heljan take on board comments on here which have produced end results. Unfortunately, there are also examples of Heljan models going through to production with an issue that stood out from the first CAD, without any corrections being made - despite it being flagged up on RmWeb. Your stance suggests that unless any of us are involved in producing a model, we have no right to make comment on how it appears? Are we not allowed to give feedback? If we don't do it in the design stage, any given Model Railway magazine will review the model after it has already been produced and pick out its faults there! That could certainly affect sales, and by that point its far too late. I don't think anyone on here that has made comments about the windows for example is criticizing the model to spite Heljan, quite the opposite, we want them to get it spot on and knock spots of the older Bachmann model. But if a glaring issue is ignored, then that's surely going to affect sales. I'm not looking to have arguments on here, that's just silly. Can we please just discuss the prototype and the models. Well - I personally felt your post certainly did have a fair degree of criticism in it - hopefully constructive enough to have now channeled this toward Heljan or any other manufacturer instead of whinging about prototypical shortcomings on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2020 Personally I can accept less visible errors or missing items on a model as long as it looks right. So for me the 45 we currently have images of does not come up to scratch because those cab windows and roof shape are visibly wrong. I hope Heljan corrects them on later incarnations of the model's development, and we should certainly give them the chance to do so, but in the past models have gone through a few iterations in development and, despite errors remaining, have been produced with them. As it stands, if the Heljan version isn't corrected, I will be going for the Bachmann sealed beam version as its warts are less intrusive. That's my choice; others can of course decide differently. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 22 hours ago, Crisis Rail said: Are you analyzing the 1978 Mainline version or the (as yet released) Heljan version? If so - you really need to get a grip. Thanks for the advice... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2020 Yes, I think the irony of butting in to tell people off about constructive criticism without offering any himself, is somewhat lost on Crisis Rail. 2 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, dj_crisp said: Thanks for the advice... Your welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, brushman47544 said: Personally I can accept less visible errors or missing items on a model as long as it looks right. So for me the 45 we currently have images of does not come up to scratch because those cab windows and roof shape are visibly wrong. I hope Heljan corrects them on later incarnations of the model's development, and we should certainly give them the chance to do so, but in the past models have gone through a few iterations in development and, despite errors remaining, have been produced with them. As it stands, if the Heljan version isn't corrected, I will be going for the Bachmann sealed beam version as its warts are less intrusive. That's my choice; others can of course decide differently. ....if Heljan read this forum with all it's Class 45 experts I'd be gobsmacked if they don't (that's if they haven't been duly informed) and hopefully when the final versions are released some on here won't come back with their all nerdy "I told you so" attitudes. Edited March 2, 2020 by Crisis Rail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 11 hours ago, Mophead45143 said: There's no need of that is there really, constructive criticism should not be bashed on a modelling forum. At no point in any of my posts have I been emotive or biased to either manufacturer - I have already apologised for any misunderstandings there. I am just trying to have a sensible discussion about modelling peaks, surely that's why anyone is on this thread?! If a model is in the design phase, it should be in a manufacturers interest to try and get it right. I have seen Ben from Heljan take on board comments on here which have produced end results. Unfortunately, there are also examples of Heljan models going through to production with an issue that stood out from the first CAD, without any corrections being made - despite it being flagged up on RmWeb. Your stance suggests that unless any of us are involved in producing a model, we have no right to make comment on how it appears? Are we not allowed to give feedback? If we don't do it in the design stage, any given Model Railway magazine will review the model after it has already been produced and pick out its faults there! That could certainly affect sales, and by that point its far too late. I don't think anyone on here that has made comments about the windows for example is criticizing the model to spite Heljan, quite the opposite, we want them to get it spot on and knock spots of the older Bachmann model. But if a glaring issue is ignored, then that's surely going to affect sales. I'm not looking to have arguments on here, that's just silly. Can we please just discuss the prototype and the models. id treat comments like that as water off a ducks back if you havent already because you'll not see the same suggestion of "working for these manufacturers and....channelling your evergy etc...." levelled at the ..... uh hum..... elders of this fine establishment so nothing seems to stop them from airing their constructive criticism so why shouldnt you...........people would moan if something was missed because people such as yourself kept schtum and kept your concerns to yourself that then led to a less than perfect model. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2020 I've seen it on other threads too, where the 'elders' self-appoint themselves as moderators. It's quite often associated with gold badges. And then without any hint of irony, they go on to discuss the postion of the reversing gear on some kettle for hours. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Crisis Rail said: ....if Heljan read this forum with all it's Class 45 experts I'd be gobsmacked if they don't (that's if they haven't been duly informed) and hopefully when the final versions are released some on here won't come back with their all nerdy "I told you so" attitudes. If you're being asked to part with the best part of £150 for a model loco, you want it to be right, at least visually. The issues with the Heljan model are blindingly obvious and, in my opinion, thus far, it doesn't cut the mustard against the current Bachmann offering in this respect. You can add all the small details and embellishments to a model that you want but if it looks visibly wrong and doesn't correctly capture the look of the prototype then that's the most important aesthetic compromised regardless of anything else. Edited March 2, 2020 by Baby Deltic 1 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 hours ago, stovepipe said: I've seen it on other threads too, where the 'elders' self-appoint themselves as moderators. It's quite often associated with gold badges. And then without any hint of irony, they go on to discuss the postion of the reversing gear on some kettle for hours. Oi! keep us gold badge people out of this. I happen to agree that the cab doors are missing the curve off the top and the windows could look better, which will definitely impact on where the cantrail lands and the curvature of the roof. I'd love to be able to get my hands on a Peak that can be easily renumbered / renamed to D60 Lytham St Annes, one which was quite common in West Yorkshire. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, Baby Deltic said: If you're being asked to part with the best part of £150 for a model loco, you want it to be right, at least visually. The issues with the Heljan model are blindingly obvious and, in my opinion, thus far, it doesn't cut the mustard against the current Bachmann offering in this respect. You can add all the small details and embellishments to a model that you want but if it looks visibly wrong and doesn't correctly capture the look of the prototype then that's the most important aesthetic compromised regardless of anything else. Spot on comments 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 hours ago, D1051 said: That would look so much better with flush glazing. Geoff Endacott 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2020 38 minutes ago, Geoff Endacott said: That would look so much better with flush glazing. Geoff Endacott At least they've painted the edges black to disguise it! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2020 Do we know if the models displayed recently were 3D prints, or shots from the tooling? I always worry when shots from the tooling have shape issues, as it suggests that not enough care has been taken at the R&D and/or tool cutting stages. There is often then an unwillingness on the part of commissioners to put money and effort into what amounts to wholesale redesign to correct for that lack of care. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinsley-toton Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 From a Hattons update e-mail. https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=522&utm_campaign=01mar-135 Heljan oo class 45 - engineering sample shown&utm_medium=email&utm_source=JAQ9LL&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJqb25lc3I0NTExMEBidGludGVybmV0LmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkpHUWVYaCJ9 T-T 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 On 02/03/2020 at 21:52, Baby Deltic said: If you're being asked to part with the best part of £150 for a model loco, you want it to be right, at least visually. The issues with the Heljan model are blindingly obvious and, in my opinion, thus far, it doesn't cut the mustard against the current Bachmann offering in this respect. You can add all the small details and embellishments to a model that you want but if it looks visibly wrong and doesn't correctly capture the look of the prototype then that's the most important aesthetic compromised regardless of anything else. Well - dont buy one then. I am sure all the typewriter ribbon used by the experts on here will point Heljan in the right direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: Well - dont buy one then. I am sure all the typewriter ribbon used by the experts on here will point Heljan in the right direction. Oh I see, so anyone who wants an accurate representation of a class 45 can go forth and multiply because rather than pointing out glowing errors when the manufacturer has a chance to act and correct the model -thus assisting the manufacturer create a better model - should just sit quietly and not mention these errors whilst a model is released which doesn't look right and will therefore probably not stack up against the model being re-tooled by the competition and lose Heljan sales because of it. Edited March 6, 2020 by Baby Deltic 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Baby Deltic said: Oh I see, so anyone who wants an accurate representation of a class 45 can go forth and multiply because rather than pointing out glowing errors when the manufacturer has a chance to act and correct the model -thus assisting the manufacturer create a better model - should just sit quietly and not mention these errors whilst a model is released which doesn't look right and will therefore probably not stack up against the model being re-tooled by the competition and lose Heljan sales because of it. Read my post again - this bit ".......will point Heljan in the right direction. What part of it don't you understand? It's up to you and other experts ITK to be proactive and inform the manufacturer who will hopefully listen. No point whinging on RMWeb with the "I'm so clued up about Class 45's look at me attitude" God forbid if the errors - and yes there are some - but i'm no nerdish expert - ever do get to the production stage - you had your chance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 24 minutes ago, Crisis Rail said: Read my post again - this bit ".......will point Heljan in the right direction. What part of it don't you understand? It's up to you and other experts ITK to be proactive and inform the manufacturer who will hopefully listen. No point whinging on RMWeb with the "I'm so clued up about Class 45's look at me attitude" God forbid if the errors - and yes there are some - but i'm no nerdish expert - ever do get to the production stage - you had your chance. This has to be the funniest thing I've read today.... "I'm no nerdish expert". Proper funny. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 27 minutes ago, dj_crisp said: This has to be the funniest thing I've read today.... "I'm no nerdish expert". Proper funny. It’s still only mid-morning. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Crisis Rail said: Read my post again - this bit ".......will point Heljan in the right direction. What part of it don't you understand? It's up to you and other experts ITK to be proactive and inform the manufacturer who will hopefully listen. No point whinging on RMWeb with the "I'm so clued up about Class 45's look at me attitude" God forbid if the errors - and yes there are some - but i'm no nerdish expert - ever do get to the production stage - you had your chance. Considering a representative from the manufacturer IS reading this forum............ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisis Rail Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, Baby Deltic said: Considering a representative from the manufacturer IS reading this forum............ Thats excellent news! saves you all a job then. 1 hour ago, dj_crisp said: This has to be the funniest thing I've read today.... "I'm no nerdish expert". Proper funny. Sorry to disappoint - Honestly - i'm not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) For my tuppence worth, in the photo posted by tinsley-toton, they look fine by my eyes. Do I want one? Oh yes please. Once on the track at a standard viewing distance, I doubt if anyone 'not in the know' will notice anything, droopy 'eyebrows' or not. Cheers, Philip Edited March 6, 2020 by Philou Grocers' apostrophe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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