Heljan announce Class 45 in OO

[Roy Langridge]

And that, my friends, if why I never* pre-order new (rather than new liveries) models from Heljan. Gutted. 

*my one exception ever is an ETHEL, for which my finger is currently hovering over the cancel button waiting to see what happens with the errors on that. 

 

Roy

[rubber duck]

Such a missed opportunity,  unless the grilles aren't  improved and the windscreen/roof curve errors aren't corrected then it looks like 2 cancelled orders,  and I'll wait till Bachmann produce a 45/1, they have a much better looking Peak IMO....    

[pheaton]

The Bachmann one is better in the shape department but the chassis needs a lot of attention to bring it up to scratch....

[Ian J.]

Really gutted to see the body shape errors, I so hope such things don't even make it past CAD.

 

Unfortunately Heljan have too much of a track record for not correcting such things that I feel it's a safe bet they won't get fixed. Hence they won't get a sale from me.

 

[37114]

8 hours ago, pheaton said:

The Bachmann one is better in the shape department but the chassis needs a lot of attention to bring it up to scratch....

Who will be the first to put a Bachmann body on a Heljan chassis????

[BigAndy]

I really do not like to bash manufacturers, as without them we would all be stuffed.

 

However, and its a big however, when a 21st century state of the art model is produced, how on Earth can it be cocked up so badly?

It's not just Heljan ( although they do have more form for it than some of the others ), but who approves the CADS before going to toolmaking? Surely, there should be someone at these companies who actually KNOW what they're talking about!

 

Noone on here wants to just sit and be keyboard warriors, it's pretty easy and simple really, if you want our cash then get it right!! All we want is a product without errors! that's all..........You wouldn't buy a car and then accept it because there were a 'few faults' on it......or a kettle than doesn't boil water......or a microwave that will only heat certain foods up but not others.....

 

Well it's the same here I'm afraid Heljan - you need to look long and flippin' hard internally as to who is approving your CADS for tooling, coz they aint getting it right and it's costing you sales.

Disapointment reigns when everyone has been looking so forward to a new model and it falls flat on its face, all for the sake of getting some expert advice on whether the CADs look like the real thing. Can't be THAT hard for you surely? Don't you want to get it so right, that every single modeller out here is clamoring for your new 45?

I mean, we're not bickering over a £50 Loco are we - substantial amounts of modellers wonga will be shelled out here.....

 

Phil Sutton has proved that it can be done, with his 24 - it's beautiful........so is it just a case of you can't be bothered to spend the time and effort in getting it right? Or is it more a case of maximizing your profit and stuff the customer?, with repeated models trotting out under your name, that all have glaring inaccuracies,  it certainly feels like the latter.

 

Will you PLEASE, PLEASE, just take a bit of time to get it spot on - ask on here..... or ask someone who is in the know, for their expert opinion BEFORE you sign the CADS off. It would save a lot of disappointment and heartache.

 

cheers

Andy

[andyman7]

The comparison photos are very good at drawing attention to the divergances, but, for me, as long as the rivets are toned down, they are not fatal. It looks like a Peak to me, and a 45/1 to boot. It's perfectly reasonable to highlight issues but to describe them as a 'disaster' is really rather subjective. Comparing it with a kettle that doesn't boil water seems over the top, as long as it will run on the track and pull trains it achieves its function in that regard!

 

[Hal Nail]

51 minutes ago, BigAndy said:

Phil Sutton has proved that it can be done, with his 24 - it's beautiful........

Are Heljan aiming and pricing this at that level (or the equivalent if it was actually developed new today) or would it be far better to compare this to the Bachmann 24?

[Allegheny1600]

3 hours ago, BigAndy said:

 

It's not just Heljan ( although they do have more form for it than some of the others ), but who approves the CADS before going to toolmaking? Surely, there should be someone at these companies who actually KNOW what they're talking about!

 

3 hours ago, BigAndy said:

Well it's the same here I'm afraid Heljan - you need to look long and flippin' hard internally as to who is approving your CADS for tooling, coz they aint getting it right and it's costing you sales.

 

I thought it was Ben Jones, formerly of "Model Rail", formerly of "Rails of Sheffield", who was supposed to be giving a guiding hand, ensuring that all was well?

Not so, it seems

[Class 158 productions]

35 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

I thought it was Ben Jones, formerly of "Model Rail", formerly of "Rails of Sheffield", who was supposed to be giving a guiding hand, ensuring that all was well?

Not so, it seems

A real shame, but the criticism is deserved. This model is designed to actually be a definitive class 45, from what we’ve seen, I don’t think it is. However it’s early stages, but I am  worried, old habits die hard. Hopefully Heljan can turn this around, now slightly worried about the 00 gauge class 47 project. 

[BigAndy]

5 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The comparison photos are very good at drawing attention to the divergances, but, for me, as long as the rivets are toned down, they are not fatal. It looks like a Peak to me, and a 45/1 to boot. It's perfectly reasonable to highlight issues but to describe them as a 'disaster' is really rather subjective. Comparing it with a kettle that doesn't boil water seems over the top, as long as it will run on the track and pull trains it achieves its function in that regard!

 

 

Well that's where I and quite a lot of others differ from your good self then! You could put a lump of coal on a chassis, put it on the front of a train and it would pull it - if you don't mind glaring inaccuracies my friend, then good luck to you...........but for my mind, this is the situation that Heljan are taking advantage of. They're kind of relying on the fact that "it'll do, most wont even notice", but it's the rest of us modellers who then suffer from that.

 

Now I know nothing about Continental HO, but I'm wondering if Fleischmann et al have the same blase attitude towards their customers? Would anyone who happens to model HO on here, comment on that? I would be very interested to see the answers. Do Rapido flog a new Loco or coach or box car, or whatever they produce and it's dimensionally wrong, with curves in the wrong places or not there at all?

 

As I said, I don't want to sit here and bash Heljan, but they have repeatedly turned out Locos and coaches that are just plain wrong......can't say it simpler than that.

 

Class 158 Productions, I don't know who Ben Jones is - never met the guy, but if  he is the chap signing stuff off, he needs to go and have a little chat with himself somewhere, then give his head a wobble........maybe he or even Heljan themselves could comment on here, then tell me and the others who have also raised concerns, where we are wrong and they are right.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[andyman7]

20 minutes ago, BigAndy said:

Now I know nothing about Continental HO, but I'm wondering if Fleischmann et al have the same blase attitude towards their customers? Would anyone who happens to model HO on here, comment on that? I would be very interested to see the answers. Do Rapido flog a new Loco or coach or box car, or whatever they produce and it's dimensionally wrong, with curves in the wrong places or not there at all?

Interestingly, there are some quite acute compromises in continental models. I have a small collection of H0 German models, and was amazed to discover that all the Fleischmann main line modern hauled coach models were shortened in length - so despite their fine finish and reliability, they were essentially the equivalent of an old style Hornby Mk3. I eventually settled on some Roco versions because they were actually scale length. So it's not quite as clear cut. I genuinely don't think any of the manufacturers has a blase attitude, but that doesn't mean that they will call it right for every potential customer. 

[MGR Hooper!]

7 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

I thought it was Ben Jones, formerly of "Model Rail", formerly of "Rails of Sheffield", who was supposed to be giving a guiding hand, ensuring that all was well?

Not so, it seems

That's what we all thought, we all had expectations and we all thought things would improve...

[Allegheny1600]

9 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Interestingly, there are some quite acute compromises in continental models. I have a small collection of H0 German models, and was amazed to discover that all the Fleischmann main line modern hauled coach models were shortened in length - so despite their fine finish and reliability, they were essentially the equivalent of an old style Hornby Mk3. I eventually settled on some Roco versions because they were actually scale length. So it's not quite as clear cut. I genuinely don't think any of the manufacturers has a blase attitude, but that doesn't mean that they will call it right for every potential customer. 

Unfortunately, that is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Continental coaches are approximately 87 feet long in real life - such long vehicles have great trouble negotiating "train set" curves AND take up lots of actual modelling length, hence why "shorties" were invented, so as to negotiate table top curves and represent a decent train length in a given space.

The other details, such as doors, windows, roof curvature and body profile is modelled correctly and the 1/93 length coaches still look good to my eyes. The 1/100 are obviously too short but still correct in profile.

While I'm sure there are examples of Continental vehicles that are not correctly profiled, I don't know those prototypes so well as I know the Peaks - this is a class I grew up with and adore. The 45's are ingrained into my earliest railway memories as a small child right up to my mid twenties and beyond.

Therefore, this is why I wanted Heljan to do a brilliant job of them, they're part of me!

John.

[Allegheny1600]

10 hours ago, BigAndy said:

 

Now I know nothing about Continental HO, but I'm wondering if Fleischmann et al have the same blase attitude towards their customers? Would anyone who happens to model HO on here, comment on that? I would be very interested to see the answers. Do Rapido flog a new Loco or coach or box car, or whatever they produce and it's dimensionally wrong, with curves in the wrong places or not there at all?

 

Hi Andy,

Absolutely NOT!

Especially with the rather more High End manufacturers like Roco, ACME, Rapido etc, etc.

I model pretty extensively in both European and American H0 scale and although there have been howlers in the past, in the present day, manufacturers simply cannot afford to get things wrong.

With social media now (I include RMW in this), if a reviewer spots a flaw, everyone is up in arms about it and I mean such minor details as a small grill shaped incorrectly for such and such a railroad.

To get a roof profile wrong would stir up a hornets nest, as here.

The buying public across the world are much more demanding now, manufacturers used to be able to get away with making one very average model, slap a dozen different paint schemes on it and laugh all the way to the bank - no more. They have to work for our money.

So come on, Heljan - get to work!

 

[andyman7]

Inteerestingly that picks up an observation I made on the parallel thread that has been started about errors in general - which is that it is a very subjective matter about what bothers someone. So for me, the shortened length is a real issue, because the proportions of the real thing to me are key to the impression it makes. For some reason I am not quite so bothered about shape issues (up to a point....). Neither of course is 'right' or 'wrong', and of course if the model is 'spot on' everyone is happy 

[Anadin Dogwalker]

FWIW if you look at the cab roof contour on the secondman's side, the bodyside curve does start well below the rain strip. Might Heljan be able to correct the top of the door to follow the contour?

 

[Waverley West]

There will inevitably be two camps here - those who think the errors are too great to make it worthwhile spending their hard-earned cash and those who can live with them, but for those who already have Bachmann 45s and 47s (which I think will form a big part of the market for Heljan's new versions) the big issue with both the 45 and the 47 is that they have to be better than the previous versions by a margin which justifies spending hundreds of pounds on them.

 

I have 3 Bachmann Peaks and I'm very happy with them. Only one is run regularly at the moment and the other two are awaiting the fitting of lights and sound. I have many more Bachmann 47s than I'd like to admit and all are sound-fitted and in regular service. I like them a lot too.

 

So, the question for me and many other modellers is: do I think the Heljan versions are so much better that they are worth spending a lot of my hard-earned cash on? When I first saw the pre-production model in the photos above, I must admit I did think it didn't look quite right. Not being an expert on Peaks, I couldn't put my finger on it, but YesTor points out the errors very clearly.

 

Bachmann's 45 and 47 may have errors themselves, but they did represent a substantial improvement over the previous versions (IMHO anyway) and the bar for Heljan is now set that much higher. 

 

I realise 3D scanning of locos and coaches must be expensive, but it does seem to me to be a surefire way of eliminating all these shape-related niggles that risk putting people off buying a model. If it is at all affordable, I really do wish it was used far more often than it seems to be. 

 

At the moment, the Heljan Peak is very much in the wait and see camp for me and I'll be hanging on to my Bachmann 47s for the time-being too. 

 

I was really hoping the arrival of Ben Jones at Heljan would see an end to the company's errors, but it seems the jury is still out on that one. What worries me is that major changes would presumably be necessary to correct the errors that YesTor points out. The rivets would presumably be fairly straightforward, but my guess is that the cab window shape and bodyside curvature errors will be a step too far for Heljan to correct. I really hope I'm wrong.

 

At the moment, the shape errors on the Peak look like they might just be saving me a significant amount of money. Like others, it's so easy to be a keyboard warrior, but I have to justify spending big bucks on models and right now the Peak does not look like it's going to be a sufficient improvement over my Bachmann versions for me to do that.

 

I was looking forward to both the Heljan 45 and the 47. I'm still hoping not to be disappointed...

[61661]

Dear All,

Many thanks for the feedback on the Class 45, of which more in a moment. Firstly though, I'm disappointed to see that some valid and constructive comments seem to have been accompanied by some unnecessary personal criticism, and unfounded assumptions about Heljan and our alleged attitude to customers. 

Engaging with modellers and acknowledging informed feedback is a priority for me and, wherever possible, we ensure that we respond to any issues raised. Personal comments (and pretty unpleasant accusations about Heljan's attitude to customers, which do not reflect our experience) reduce the incentive to engage on this forum and I will take some time to consider how and when I do so in the future. 

As a company, we always appreciate constructive criticism and informed feedback about all our products. Whenever possible we act on that feedback to help us produce better models. Privately, we also consult a number of knowledgable modellers during the development process to gain their feedback and feed that into the process too. 
With regard to the 45, it's important to make it clear that the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive from the vast majority of those who've responded. However, as with all pre-production models there are issues to be resolved and corrections to be made, including and beyond those raised on this forum. Areas where we have requested improvements include the bodyside grilles, the windscreen frames (where the rivet heads need to be removed) and the inclusion of a missing access panel. We are expecting improved samples soon, and hope that these issues will be eliminated at that stage. 

Turning to the shape of the cabsides, we are surprised that this has suddenly been raised a small number of commenters. To our knowledge it was never identified as a problem on our highly regarded O gauge model (on which the OO model is based) and neither were there any comments about it when the CAD images were published some months ago. Based on the feedback, we will investigate what, if anything, can be done before production starts.

Finally, once again, please bear in mind that this is a first tooling sample and not the finished article. 

 

I hope this clarifies the current situation. 

 

Ben

 

[Class 158 productions]

Must say, it is really refreshing to see a manufacturer representative on the forums and someone who clearly cares about the product. Looking forward to the peaks, but as I’ve stated before, this model for its price and demographic needs to be correct. The other model, which is actually quite an old body shell, got the basic shape right. I really hope something can be rectified, and hopefully it will improve the Heljan stigma and produce a brilliant model, take care! 

[Hal Nail]

23 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Personal comments (and pretty unpleasant accusations about Heljan's attitude to customers, which do not reflect our experience) reduce the incentive to engage on this forum and I will take some time to consider how and when I do so in the future. 

 

Ben 

Good on you for coming on here today and I hope you realise there will always be a handful who get carried away when typing but I'm sure mean no I'll feeling.

Cheers

Ian

[Waverley West]

24 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Many thanks for the feedback on the Class 45, of which more in a moment. Firstly though, I'm disappointed to see that some valid and constructive comments seem to have been accompanied by some unnecessary personal criticism, and unfounded assumptions about Heljan and our alleged attitude to customers. 

Engaging with modellers and acknowledging informed feedback is a priority for me and, wherever possible, we ensure that we respond to any issues raised. Personal comments (and pretty unpleasant accusations about Heljan's attitude to customers, which do not reflect our experience) reduce the incentive to engage on this forum and I will take some time to consider how and when I do so in the future. 

As a company, we always appreciate constructive criticism and informed feedback about all our products. Whenever possible we act on that feedback to help us produce better models. Privately, we also consult a number of knowledgable modellers during the development process to gain their feedback and feed that into the process too. 
With regard to the 45, it's important to make it clear that the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive from the vast majority of those who've responded. However, as with all pre-production models there are issues to be resolved and corrections to be made, including and beyond those raised on this forum. Areas where we have requested improvements include the bodyside grilles, the windscreen frames (where the rivet heads need to be removed) and the inclusion of a missing access panel. We are expecting improved samples soon, and hope that these issues will be eliminated at that stage. 

Turning to the shape of the cabsides, we are surprised that this has suddenly been raised a small number of commenters. To our knowledge it was never identified as a problem on our highly regarded O gauge model (on which the OO model is based) and neither were there any comments about it when the CAD images were published some months ago. Based on the feedback, we will investigate what, if anything, can be done before production starts.

Finally, once again, please bear in mind that this is a first tooling sample and not the finished article. 

 

I hope this clarifies the current situation. 

 

Ben

 

 

Many thanks for the feedback, Ben. Much appreciated. I do think that YesTor makes some clearly illustrated and valid points, so I'm hoping you will take them onboard.

 

I'm happy to be patient though. I'd far rather wait longer for the definitive model, than see an imperfect model rolled out in haste. It's the final product that matters, after all.

 

Dave

 

 

[Zunnan]

12 hours ago, BigAndy said:

Now I know nothing about Continental HO, but I'm wondering if Fleischmann et al have the same blase attitude towards their customers? Would anyone who happens to model HO on here, comment on that? I would be very interested to see the answers. Do Rapido flog a new Loco or coach or box car, or whatever they produce and it's dimensionally wrong, with curves in the wrong places or not there at all?

 

I remember the big outcry when Athearn released their 'definitive' Genesis GP7/GP9 with some shape errors. They were among the first to admit the model wasn't as good as it could have been, and the model was duly retooled to correct issues with the cab and the body for later batches.

 

I actually quite like the 45, it succeeds in capturing the hulk of these beasts even knowing the errors are there. I can overlook the heavy rivet and missing grille detail as that can still be fixed though I would much rather they were correct, its knowing that they have shape errors and what those errors are that sticks for me. For a model of this price point, they really should be getting the shape right long before it goes to tooling. Here we are again with a Heljan model showing errors to the roofline and how it interacts with cab windows/doors. At least they are consistent in their inconsistencies. Having said that, if I was in the market specifically for a /1 I'd probably still be tempted as its not as incorrect as the class 25 is, and its nowhere near the magnitude of DP2. I'm more interested in the sealed beam than an ETH machine and on that point, this is not really an improvement over the ageing Bachman 45. Like the 25, I'll now be waiting to see the competitions livery sample efforts rather than putting a pre-order in. If it makes the bargain bins I'll probably find it hard to say no eventually, but I won't be replacing my existing 45s.

[bill_schmidt1]

30 minutes ago, 61661 said:

 

Turning to the shape of the cabsides, we are surprised that this has suddenly been raised a small number of commenters. To our knowledge it was never identified as a problem on our highly regarded O gauge model (on which the OO model is based) and neither were there any comments about it when the CAD images were published some months ago. Based on the feedback, we will investigate what, if anything, can be done before production starts.

Finally, once again, please bear in mind that this is a first tooling sample and not the finished article. 

Whys it up to anyone other than Heljan to check the body shape? No point blaming people not coming forward and identifying the problems for you. After all, who's being paid to do the work? And in the same way you say about engaging with customers, that works both ways. Blame people for not coming forward to point out errors and those people you're pointing the finger at probably won't bother in the future. 

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, bill_schmidt1 said:

Whys it up to anyone other than Heljan to check the body shape? No point blaming people not coming forward and identifying the problems for you. After all, who's being paid to do the work? And in the same way you say about engaging with customers, that works both ways. Blame people for not coming forward to point out errors and those people you're pointing the finger at probably won't bother in the future. 

 

Damned if you do - damned if you don't !?!

 

The ultra-critical amongst the diesel enthusiasts have been lambasting manufacturers for not consulting them during product development, so the manufacturers do exactly that.

 

Then the same same ultra-critical diesel enthusiasts have the cheek to respond that it's not for the potential customer to critique the design !!

 

Let's face it, some members here make a career out of being critical of manufacturers - they'll never be satisfied whatever happens, so why bother?!? Ignore them!

 

John Isherwood.