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Heljan announce Class 45 in OO

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23 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

To my eyes the front windows don't look quite right They look very steep and flat on top. There is also a very pronounced angle where the radius changes sharply between the centre window and the outer windows. This is noticeable on the gutter strips in some photo's of real peaks but it is less pronounced. The outer windows also look too straight on the outer edges. The real loco has a continuous radius and less sharp corners.

 

I have to agree, it does look like something is not quite right here, particularly with the outer windows. The Bachmann model can be accused of not even trying to represent the changing radius in the gutter strips, but then it is such a subtle feature in real life, and would be even more so in 4mm. Is this too pronounced on the Heljan model?

 

I also wondered if the nose cone is slightly off in shape or if its just the angle of the photos. Hard to tell as the EP all grey.

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Their 7mm one is very good so anything less convincing would be disappointing but just reinforces you cant simply "shrink" a design as people often suggest 

 

I've said it before but our perception of objects must vary individually - I wouldn't profess to know exactly why but obviously different characteristics or details catch different peoples' attention. My instant reaction was it just doesnt look right due to the windows but obviously they dont bother some.

Edited by Hal Nail

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10 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

How far we have come !
37-051Main_3072939_Qty1_1.jpg.c9d65df30e2a01fd1c2540d62b56988a.jpg
 

 

Indeed, although considering the limited choice we had in the 1970s, when the Mainline Peak came out it was the best thing since sliced bread ! (IMHO anyway).

 

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Yes that takes me back .  I don't think it looks too bad even now  although obviously we've moved on in 42 years . I got mine in Jan 1978.  Remember at the time Hornby were chucking out 08s with no outside frames , Class 47s in blue with moulding lines for the green livery still visible on the bodyside and their 37 had yellow panel mould lines on the nose and a dirty great black slot on one of the noses where the chassis clipped in . So this was a revelation . If I remember correctly I took great pride in being able to read the TOPS panel on the side . Simple Things!   I also seem to recall it was pretty heavy and went like a bat out of hell and had to be held back on the curves for fear of it launching itself off the baseboard.

 

I did replace mine with two Bachmann examples 10 years ago, I think ,and they are a step above in both mechanisms and looks . I would like a sealed marker lights version though  and so will look at Heljan and Bachmann versions on release to see which I think is best . Pre disposed to Heljan though for taking the initiative on these while Bachmann dragged their feet for years.

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I've just been looking at the photo here

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/tmc-to-retail-early-versions-of-derby-sulzer-peak/

 

Always nice to see a test press so to speak to see how the model is developing. Lots of good things and a few areas that may benefit from some tweaking

 

Hard to tell from the photos but is the top of the cab door too flat and missing a gentle curve.... which suggests the bodyside to roof arc is more aggressive than the real thing and a bit too high on the bodyside. Hopefully this photo explains what I'm on about as the light highlights the arc

Leeds Neville Hill.

 

the shape of the roof might be influcening the cab windows - but tbh it's really hard to tell with the thick glazing in place

 

The nose is interesting as it looks a bit too perfect on the model! I don't see such a sharp perfect curve on the real things but painting will probably make this look better.

 

I hoping the side grills are better on the final version as they're rather distinctive on the real thing. 

 

Also the bogie detailing could be a bit more crisp.... such as the bogie springs. Again hoping this is just because it's a pre-production example.

 

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5 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

 

I've just been looking at the photo here

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/tmc-to-retail-early-versions-of-derby-sulzer-peak/

 

Always nice to see a test press so to speak to see how the model is developing. Lots of good things and a few areas that may benefit from some tweaking

 

Hard to tell from the photos but is the top of the cab door too flat and missing a gentle curve.... which suggests the bodyside to roof arc is more aggressive than the real thing and a bit too high on the bodyside. Hopefully this photo explains what I'm on about as the light highlights the arc

Leeds Neville Hill.

 

the shape of the roof might be influcening the cab windows - but tbh it's really hard to tell with the thick glazing in place

 

The nose is interesting as it looks a bit too perfect on the model! I don't see such a sharp perfect curve on the real things but painting will probably make this look better.

 

I hoping the side grills are better on the final version as they're rather distinctive on the real thing. 

 

Also the bogie detailing could be a bit more crisp.... such as the bogie springs. Again hoping this is just because it's a pre-production example.

 

 

Funny how the ancient mainline model has managed to capture that curve on the top of the cab door! I think the current Bachmann model does too, but only just. 

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Despite my reservations in the earlier post, one area the Heljan model has certainly improved on over the Bachmann model is the centre-split headcode. On the Bachmann model these are a tad underscale and subsequently leave too big a gap in-between them, which is very prominent with a full yellow end. 

 

Just compare the model of 45036 to the real thing.

Edited by Mophead45143

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On 27/02/2020 at 09:17, Legend said:

Yes that takes me back .  I don't think it looks too bad even now  although obviously we've moved on in 42 years . I got mine in Jan 1978.  Remember at the time Hornby were chucking out 08s with no outside frames , Class 47s in blue with moulding lines for the green livery still visible on the bodyside and their 37 had yellow panel mould lines on the nose and a dirty great black slot on one of the noses where the chassis clipped in . So this was a revelation . If I remember correctly I took great pride in being able to read the TOPS panel on the side . Simple Things!   I also seem to recall it was pretty heavy and went like a bat out of hell and had to be held back on the curves for fear of it launching itself off the baseboard.

 

I did replace mine with two Bachmann examples 10 years ago, I think ,and they are a step above in both mechanisms and looks . I would like a sealed marker lights version though  and so will look at Heljan and Bachmann versions on release to see which I think is best . Pre disposed to Heljan though for taking the initiative on these while Bachmann dragged their feet for years.

The Hornby 37 was also fitted with inaccurate Class 31 bogies, later changed of course.........to equally inaccurate Class 47 bogies!

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If you order an early Peak from TMC now do TMC take the payment immediately or when the model is sent out to buyers? 

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No, its just a normal pre-order like other retailers, if you use a credit card.

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On 25/02/2020 at 22:59, Baby Deltic said:

To my eyes the front windows don't look quite right They look very steep and flat on top. There is also a very pronounced angle where the radius changes sharply between the centre window and the outer windows. This is noticeable on the gutter strips in some photo's of real peaks but it is less pronounced. The outer windows also look too straight on the outer edges. The real loco has a continuous radius and less sharp corners.

 

Agreed.  Looking at various photos it can be seen that the top and bottom curvatures of the left and right windscreens run almost parallel until they reach virtually where the wiper pivot is situated...

 

FE802074-9F50-487C-ABC8-5E2C76565A8B.jpeg

 

Class 45/1  45144 at Liverpool Lime St 1986.

 

Derelict Ex-BR Class 45 'Peak' No. 45015.

 

 

Whereas whichever angle viewed from, the model's outermost windscreens appear far too steep and there are seemingly no [virtually] parallel elements.  Agreed on the corner curvatures being too sharp as well...

 

996686619_Heljan45windscreen.jpg.8569ee824be5653b1b530de76266e1ca.jpg

 

 

From memory, the O gauge version suffers from a similar quirk also, with everything sloping downwards from the centre windscreen just that little bit too sharply giving the windscreens and roof curvature an unwelcome 'angular' kind of look. 

 

Best

Al

 

Edited by YesTor
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Im thinking the roof arc is off which isn't allowing the shape of the front windows to be right.

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I think the Bachmann model caught the look of the Peaks very well especially round the windows. When I first saw the Heljan O gauge model I noticed the front windows. I hoped they would make changes to the drawings for the OO version. I will be going for the new Bachmann versions if the current Heljan one isn't changed.

Edited by Baby Deltic
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There are good shots of the class 45 samples on the latest Hatton's Platform 1 video (Number 30) about 34 minutes in. You can see the roof variations between the different samples.

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12 hours ago, stovepipe said:

No, its just a normal pre-order like other retailers, if you use a credit card.

 

Thanks for that. With D11, D13, an A2/3, the Hush Hush, The Fell and at least one, probably two BR 2MTs arriving at about the same time the wallet is going to be well bruised! 

Edited by D9001

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7 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

I think the Bachmann model catched the look of the Peaks very well especially round the windows. When I first saw the Heljan O gauge model I noticed the front windows. I hoped they would make changes to the drawings for the OO version. I will be going for the new Bachmann versions if the current Heljan one isn't changed.

 

This is the thing. Heljan have had a chance to be the top Peak producers in the 00 market, as the Bachmann tooling was starting to show its age. But Bachmann got the shape right, and if a new model can't do that then what is the point? 

 

The same thing appears to be happening with the 25/3 and the 47. The chance for greatness was there but glaring errors are spoiling it. 

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On 27/02/2020 at 09:17, Legend said:

Yes that takes me back .  I don't think it looks too bad even now  although obviously we've moved on in 42 years . I got mine in Jan 1978.  Remember at the time Hornby were chucking out 08s with no outside frames , Class 47s in blue with moulding lines for the green livery still visible on the bodyside and their 37 had yellow panel mould lines on the nose and a dirty great black slot on one of the noses where the chassis clipped in . So this was a revelation . If I remember correctly I took great pride in being able to read the TOPS panel on the side . Simple Things!   I also seem to recall it was pretty heavy and went like a bat out of hell and had to be held back on the curves for fear of it launching itself off the baseboard.

 

I did replace mine with two Bachmann examples 10 years ago, I think ,and they are a step above in both mechanisms and looks . I would like a sealed marker lights version though  and so will look at Heljan and Bachmann versions on release to see which I think is best . Pre disposed to Heljan though for taking the initiative on these while Bachmann dragged their feet for years.

Bachmann did do a sealed beam version of the class 45 and also 46 if you include 97403 Ixion. They released them as a limited edition for Modelzone and I think there must have been an agreement that Bachmann wouldn't do their own for a certain period of time so that Modelzone could get a return on their tooling cost, but Modelzone went bust. Everyone was shouting for Bachmann to release the sealed beam version as a normal model but they never did until now, so that is my guess. I have a few of the 45's and the 46 and they sell for silly money of Ebay.

Edited by Baby Deltic
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, D1051 said:

 

If like the Heljan model.Bachmann were to add the "bogie derailment" frames & the main brake air res pipe at sole bar level then yes it would be on a par with Heljans pre (emphasis on pre) production offering.

 

I appreciate that, and I have no doubt that the new Heljan model is going to be better detailed than the Bachmann offering, with correct features unlike some of the abortions Bachmann have churned out in the past. For example, the fictitious lamp bracket and hand rail arrangement on the noses of their centre-headcode 45's & 46's, the dodgy grille for the roof fan, the incorrect nose end grilles for blue era models and the iffy plated over bodyside steps. Some of these are being corrected on their new 'sealed beam' 45/0's going by the EP's. 

 

But my main point still stands, no-matter how much the new Heljan model will improve on the Bachmann model detail wise, which I'm sure it will, if they don't get the shape right then what is the point? 

 

The general consensus is that the Bachmann model got the overall shape right, so it looks like a peak. You can buy etched detailing kits to improve on the details that are not correct or missing, such as the "bogie  derailment" frames you mention. 

 

 

Cameron

Edited by Mophead45143
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Please forgive me, but I've only been aware of Class 45s for about 45 years, and never before have I come across the phrase 'bogie derailment frame,' even with 30 years working in the industry.  Can some kind individual please enlighten me?

 

TIA

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On 27/02/2020 at 10:46, dj_crisp said:

 

I've just been looking at the photo here

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/tmc-to-retail-early-versions-of-derby-sulzer-peak/

 

Always nice to see a test press so to speak to see how the model is developing. Lots of good things and a few areas that may benefit from some tweaking

 

Hard to tell from the photos but is the top of the cab door too flat and missing a gentle curve.... which suggests the bodyside to roof arc is more aggressive than the real thing and a bit too high on the bodyside. Hopefully this photo explains what I'm on about as the light highlights the arc

Leeds Neville Hill.

 

the shape of the roof might be influcening the cab windows - but tbh it's really hard to tell with the thick glazing in place

 

The nose is interesting as it looks a bit too perfect on the model! I don't see such a sharp perfect curve on the real things but painting will probably make this look better.

 

I hoping the side grills are better on the final version as they're rather distinctive on the real thing. 

 

Also the bogie detailing could be a bit more crisp.... such as the bogie springs. Again hoping this is just because it's a pre-production example.

 

 

Are you analyzing the 1978 Mainline version or the (as yet released) Heljan version?

 

If so - you really need to get a grip.

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1 hour ago, 'CHARD said:

Please forgive me, but I've only been aware of Class 45s for about 45 years, and never before have I come across the phrase 'bogie derailment frame,' even with 30 years working in the industry.  Can some kind individual please enlighten me?

 

TIA

See picture attached you can just make it out, at sole bar level 5 green vertical green stripes . I can only assume you never were involved with the lifting of a 45 ?You have to remove "casting/derailment claw " as i've heard it called. Picture is mine BTW . We lifted our 45 twice .Traction motor change .

45149_12.jpg

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Is that to prevent overtilt of the bogie when the loco is lifted?

 

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19 minutes ago, D1051 said:

yes we did have a visit from one of the mentioned manufactures  on our 45.I'm not going to contest which is better than the other .And at 58 years old i'm more of a off the shelf model person OK. You obviously know 45s better than i do (clue of my involvement is profile picture) .Thanks for your advice BTW 

 

I'm not trying to challenge your knowledge on peaks or profess that I know more than you, and I don't think my posts suggest that. I wasn't being sarcy in my post, and I apologise if this is how you felt I have come across. I am merely trying to talk factually on a modeling forum about two rival model manufacturers, which are producing the same locomotive. I don't think its unreasonable to pick out the pro's and con's of each. 

 

It has been highlighted, by other members on this forum, that there appears to be an issue with the cab end windows. As such things can make a big difference to the look or 'face' of a locomotive, it is an important thing to get right. I have nothing against Heljan, but I don't think it is unreasonable to point this issue out. I am sure it will excel against the Bachmann model in many other areas, such as detailing. You made a good point about the "bogie derailment" frames, an issue with the Bachmann model which many people agree on, or else there wouldn't be the etches available. This is something I will have to consider for my Bachmann peaks.

 

My suggestion that detailing kits can be bought for the Bachmann model was not addressed to you personally, as me telling you what you should do. I was merely stating that it is an option to all modelers on here on ways they can improve a model that lacks in these areas, but otherwise captures the look of the real thing. 

 

45149 is a fine machine and you and your team on the GWR must be proud.

 

Cameron

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5 hours ago, Mophead45143 said:

 

I appreciate that, and I have no doubt that the new Heljan model is going to be better detailed than the Bachmann offering, with correct features unlike some of the abortions Bachmann have churned out in the past. For example, the fictitious lamp bracket and hand rail arrangement on the noses of their centre-headcode 45's & 46's, the dodgy grille for the roof fan, the incorrect nose end grilles for blue era models and the iffy plated over bodyside steps. Some of these are being corrected on their new 'sealed beam' 45/0's going by the EP's. 

 

But my main point still stands, no-matter how much the new Heljan model will improve on the Bachmann model detail wise, which I'm sure it will, if they don't get the shape right then what is the point? 

 

The general consensus is that the Bachmann model got the overall shape right, so it looks like a peak. You can buy etched detailing kits to improve on the details that are not correct or missing, such as the "bogie  derailment" frames you mention. 

 

 

Cameron

 

Maybe you should seek employment with such manufacturers to right all their wrongs? You sound pretty well clued up so how about channelling your expertise well before the proverbial stable door has bolted. 

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