JeremyC Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) On 09/06/2019 at 11:48, cctransuk said: I just find that a good motor combined with an excellent gearbox will start and stop smoothly without a flywheel. Adding a flywheel seems to require more energy to get started, and results in a less smooth start. Certainly, the overrun produced by the flywheel can give the effect of mass and momentum when decelerating but, somehow, a chassis fitted with a flywheel usually seems to run 'rougher' than when the flywheel is removed. Just my experience; try it, and see if you agree. Regards, John Isherwood. I suspect the reason flywheel fitted chassis run rougher is because no one (or hardly any one) has the ability to properly balance them before or more importantly after fitting. Edited June 10, 2019 by JeremyC 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 On 06/06/2019 at 11:01, polybear said: Now out of stock Never mind - the same item is available here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2PCS-DC-12V-36500RPM-5-Pole-Rotor-DC-Motor-High-Speed-Dual-Shaft-Carbon-Brush/283139461125 Mine have just arrived, I misread the listing and bought an extra one only to find 4 in the pack, now at 87p each inc postage from China!!, the first thing is they run when power is applied, they are 5 pole and skew wound, how good they are is yet to be ascertained. must find something to try it on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 37 minutes ago, hayfield said: .... I misread the listing and bought an extra one only to find 4 in the pack, now at 87p each inc postage from China!! .... Me too - I now have to find four projects in which to use them ! They seem to be quite high-revving in comparison to the Mitsumis. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just received two myself, ordered 6th June, so pretty good from China. Wonder if one will power my DJM Austerity...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Hello, Me too. Hoping to fit to a comet chassis to replace the Hornby one. Hopefully be able to load it up with loads of lead. trustytrev.:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 14 hours ago, RedgateModels said: Just received two myself, ordered 6th June, so pretty good from China. Wonder if one will power my DJM Austerity...... I just get the feeling they will not be much kop, but willing to give them a go. If I fit one I still have 3 replacements !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 They seem very smooth and quiet on first test. Not sure what I'm going to use them on yet though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 6 hours ago, RedgateModels said: They seem very smooth and quiet on first test. Not sure what I'm going to use them on yet though! That was my inpression too, I've not put one in anything yet, but on just test running they seem to start much more steadily and smoothly than some others I've tried recently, which seems hopeful for good starting and slow running to me (thanks to 5 pole skew-wound armature maybe?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted June 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2019 I tested mine yesterday; after only a few second's initial running they were starting reliably at only 1.7 volts; they certainly seem to be very smooth. The only issue seems to be that there are no fixing screw holes, only a circular boss at the front which will help a little. So mounting will need to be a bit creative - I'll be interested to learn of anyone's experiences when testing these out in anger..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 A big thanks to all of you who have tried and tested some of these Mashima alternatives. I have a batch of the cheap but very smooth and slow Mitsumi 12/20, I've used N20 motor/gearboxes, and have another in stock. Just ordered a couple of the skew-wound 5 pole motors mentioned above, and a couple of the 15mm square motors that appear to have 4 magnets and a 6 pole armature. All bought for next to nothing. In addition I still have some Mashimas, and a couple of Mabuchis which I pulled out of the door mirror on my old Mercedes after I had to replace it. Seeking out all these alternatives is quite addictive - do I have a problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Barclay said: Seeking out all these alternatives is quite addictive - do I have a problem? Your biggest problem will be building enough locos to provide homes for all those motors...... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 On 29/06/2019 at 08:17, polybear said: I tested mine yesterday; after only a few second's initial running they were starting reliably at only 1.7 volts; they certainly seem to be very smooth. The only issue seems to be that there are no fixing screw holes, only a circular boss at the front which will help a little. So mounting will need to be a bit creative - I'll be interested to learn of anyone's experiences when testing these out in anger..... I have fitted (glued with epoxy) one into a Comet Jinty chassis 18 mm Romford wheels, a Comet motor mount with a 38-1 gears set, no pickups yet (a pair of wires direct to a transformer H&M Safety Minor. High revving motor which needs a bigger gear set, a better more modern controller would be far better (80- or 100-1 would be far better). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Good to see that there are so many options for motors to replace the Mashima range. But has anyone yet come up with an effective way to attach a gearbox please? Epoxy seems irreversible (aside from any risk of getting glue in the working bits). Does the crown gear come as part of the set that you get with an N20? Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, burgundy said: Good to see that there are so many options for motors to replace the Mashima range. But has anyone yet come up with an effective way to attach a gearbox please? Epoxy seems irreversible (aside from any risk of getting glue in the working bits). Does the crown gear come as part of the set that you get with an N20? Best wishes Eric As far as the cheap motor is concerned, the gearbox is far more valuable than the motor. I guess you could try Superglue, or if its a tight fit Loctite 243 I had thought of buying a tap to make a thread, again far cheaper to buy a motor, plus it is a bit high revving Chris Gibbon at High Level seems to be working on a couple of exciting items Edited August 9, 2019 by hayfield 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 9 hours ago, burgundy said: Good to see that there are so many options for motors to replace the Mashima range. But has anyone yet come up with an effective way to attach a gearbox please? Epoxy seems irreversible (aside from any risk of getting glue in the working bits). Does the crown gear come as part of the set that you get with an N20? Best wishes Eric Someone above soldered the motor on, or I suppose one could bend up a brass strip bracket with a bolt pressing on the motor end and solder that to the gearbox? (Haven't tried yet though). I bought a couple of N20 motors with no attached gear https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Micro-Minebea-N20-Motor-DC-3V-12V-6V-9V-24800RPM-High-Speed-Precious-Metal-Brush/282601710312?epid=2163196563&hash=item41cc5fe2e8:g:g1QAAOSwU1RZhHIO however if I can I will use this 5 pole one in preference, it seems to be a smoother-starting motor. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, hayfield said: I had thought of buying a tap to make a thread ... Beware - drilling and tapping a motor case has the potential to do irreversible damage to the motor innards ! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Beware - drilling and tapping a motor case has the potential to do irreversible damage to the motor innards ! Regards, John Isherwood. Another reason I decided against doing it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 9 hours ago, burgundy said: Good to see that there are so many options for motors to replace the Mashima range. But has anyone yet come up with an effective way to attach a gearbox please? Epoxy seems irreversible (aside from any risk of getting glue in the working bits). Does the crown gear come as part of the set that you get with an N20? Best wishes Eric Actually, there aren't. At least not in the sense that there is a selection of motors of different sizes for different applications with common shaft lengths/sizes and tapped mounting holes, designed for continuous uses across a wide speed range. Once some suitable replacements (with comparable performance to the Mashima range) have been identified, then the "gearbox manufacturers will be able to adapt their products to suit, using screw mounting as usual. DJH have already done this (see Wright Writes), but the source of their motors is, so far, a secret. I don't know what Chris at HL is up to although his former connection with DJH may give a lead but at least two other kit designers are looking at the options currently readily available. Tests on the N20 motors haven't been entirely satisfactory, overheating with prolonged heavy loads apparently being a problem. Most of the small DC motors available from the Far East are designed for applications with short operation times, such as car mirror operation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 The Mitsumi motor solders very well to a gearbox, with the advantage that it can be removed easily. This was suggested by Ruston and I have just tried it most successfully. As an alternative my friend Chris made a little Paxolin drilling jig for re-drilling gearboxes to suit the motor and this seems an easy solution too, although they appear to need a slightly larger screw (I believe M1.5) which of course isn't supplied. I think the idea of a small brass mounting plate, screwed to the motor and then soldered to the gearbox would suit for most types though. I'm sure DJH aren't revealing their sources - it's too easy for us to source them ourselves from Hong Kong or China for a fraction of the cost, so I can't blame them really..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 I think the "a fraction of the cost" is the biggest issue. The fact that some of these motors cost less than UK postage tells us something, they are cheaply made !! I accept that the retailers if they source the product themselves, can have quite large mark ups, but this does have to cover failure rates etc. Granted better quality motors may cost slightly more, but that small incremental cost can give a massive increase in performance. i would imaging having holes drilled and threaded will also increase the cost per item The loss of Mashima's may in the long run actually be a benefit to modellers, we became dependant one manufacturer who was able to provide a quality item in a wide range of sizes. UK retailers have now had to find an alternative and it may well transpire that even better alternatives could become available in the near future 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, Barclay said: The Mitsumi motor solders very well to a gearbox, with the advantage that it can be removed easily. This was suggested by Ruston and I have just tried it most successfully. As an alternative my friend Chris made a little Paxolin drilling jig for re-drilling gearboxes to suit the motor and this seems an easy solution too, although they appear to need a slightly larger screw (I believe M1.5) which of course isn't supplied. The Mitsumi motor comes with tapped mounting holes - just not in the same position as those on the Mashima motors or the High Level gearboxes. Bought from me, Mitsumi motors come with a pair of mounting screws and a diagram showing where to drill your gearbox etch to suit the motor fixing points; https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm Regards, John Isherwood. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted August 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, hayfield said: I think the "a fraction of the cost" is the biggest issue. The fact that some of these motors cost less than UK postage tells us something, they are cheaply made !! I had an explanation from someone who works in the Far East and it does make sense. The motors and other electronics we see are the over supply for items made for the Chinese home market. For instance they will source several thousand wing mirror motors (N20) to a specification to make XXX wing mirrors for a car being producd for the Chinese domestic market. Once the mirrors are supplied there are a number of spare motors etc available and as these were not originally destined for export they are able to export them with postage subsidised by the Chinese government as they are still (supposedly) a developing nation. The profit was made on the supply of the wing mirrors, these are just an extra that brings currency into China while being a small enough export that it doesn't count in the grand scheme and keeps them as a 'developing nation' 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 I think also international postage is covered by a convention that the sending nation covers the cost of transporting the item to the recipient country, that countries postal system will deliver the item for free. In turn the Royal Mail will charge the customer and pay the courier to transport the mail to receiving nation who will in turn, In the past this system has worked well, but there are rumblings in the USA about China's abuse of the system which is distorting its own market as the Chinese companies have an unfair commercial advantage For me the odd £2 I spend on a pack of screws (M1.4 x 2 mm ) costs the Chinese government far more, and the business I give the Royal Mail subsidises the odd letter they have to deliver for free. The screws were spares for Mashima motors £2.05 inc postage for 100 and arrived within the week, How much does a jiffy bag and a stamp cost in this country !! And the screws do fit Mashima's nicely, replacing those I have dropped on the floor 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 10 hours ago, cctransuk said: The Mitsumi motor comes with tapped mounting holes - just not in the same position as those on the Mashima motors or the High Level gearboxes. Bought from me, Mitsumi motors come with a pair of mounting screws and a diagram showing where to drill your gearbox etch to suit the motor fixing points; https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm Regards, John Isherwood. The motors are the same as anyone can buy direct from China for under a pound. So that's £7 for a couple of screws and a diagram? I'll stick to soldering them on, thanks. It's worked perfectly on the 5 that I've fitted so far... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
friscopete Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 I wondered about soldering an arm or tray to the rear of a High Level gearbox to support a motor .. I planned to just silicone the motor onto it getting perfect adjustment or even a Milliput saddle l. I use the 6 pole square motors a lot which have great low end grunt .I havnt tried it because I dont really need that kind of application on US brass so far but as NWSL have closed who knows in the future . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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