Replacement for Mashima

[chris p bacon]

On 10/08/2019 at 21:57, PenrithBeacon said:

Personally I'd rather pay extra from a reputable UK supplier than somebody faceless selling remaindered goods.

 

Regards

 

But they all come from the same source.

 

I have approx 60 motors purchased from Ebay (various makes & options) the Mitsumis are ok, but not that great compared to others I've picked up so I only use them as a last resort.

[friscopete]

Motors for a quid each and everyone is moaning ....priceless.

[sharris]

The national minimum wage is currently £8.21/hour (I didn't realise it was actually that low) - that means for every 7 minutes, approximately, that it takes to process something, it will add at least £1 to the price. 

 

How many pounds-worth of time have been spent arguing 'I could do that cheaper than paying someone to do it for me'? 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Buying stuff from China is ok if you're not in any particular hurry, whereas a UK seller is exponentially quicker, even for me based overseas.

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

13 minutes ago, sharris said:

How many pounds-worth of time have been spent arguing 'I could do that cheaper than paying someone to do it for me'? 

 

 

I was going to type a reply until I worked out the cost of doing so.

 

I will now invoice you for this note and expect payment by return in the form of motors....

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

That's a very vague search and it's to be expected you would get so many results. Type in Mitsumi Motor and you get only 84 results, the first of which is the very same motor that we're discussing and is from a UK supplier. Further down the page and you'll find you can buy 5 for £3.09! If by 'leg work' you mean searching ebay then it really isn't difficult. I found for myself a source of the N20-sized motors without gearboxes that I mentioned much earlier on in this thread. I bought one for £1.49 and tested it in a loco. It was fine and did the job, so I bought some more. I've just bought another type of motor to try out and I don't yet know if it's suitable but if it isn't I've lost a couple of quid. If it doesn't work they will refund my money. This idea that these Chinese sellers are untrustworthy seems a little xenophobic to me...

 

It's not rocket science, or some expensive R&D programme, it's the risk of a couple of quid and a few minutes on the internet. Try it and you may be surprised what you can find.

 

Ruston

What I was trying to show is unless you have prior knowledge of what to buy it can be a minefield !!, a search on the whole of eBay would have produced many more. It may well be that you have sufficient electrical knowledge to fully understand what you are buying. Most modellers do not have this ability. I have no experience of the N20 and it may be a suitable substitute for some of the Mashima range, again I will deffer this assumption to those who have the technical ability to make that claim. As I said I do have experience of a similar motor as used by others on this site. It works but is really too high revving unless you wish to have TGV's going at full speed, a bit of fun but not something I would put into a model I have invested hours in building

 

A question, how did find out that these N20 motors were suitable for model locomotives ? 

 

You state it only risks a couple of quit, how many couple of quids are you willing to risk before you find the correct motor ?

 

I for one would rather someone in the know does all the research for me, finding something that works is totally different to finding something of the correct specification which can run well over the long term.

 

As for the business ethics of Far Eastern Traders, Many buyers are very wary of buying items on eBay, let alone from the far east, which has a reputation of selling both substandard and fake products. We are constantly being warned about substandard/dangerous items from both Trading Standards and the Fire Brigade. Had these been mains powered I would have stayed well away from them, many of these motors are very cheap items, and cheap for a reason !! It could be simply surplus stock, or substandard items

 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

I bought some small cordless motors from China which were faulty, I was refunded the same day. There are lots of links and names of motors on this thread and elsewhere just follow the links instead of a general search= simples.

For some reason some people shy away from eBay ,which is utter nonsense. It heavily leans towards the buyer , any problems and eBay will refund your money if a seller "misbehaves" ,not as easy buying from some UK sites I have used in the past, when it comes to refunds. 

 

 

 

Mick

 

I have no problems using both eBay or PayPal, as you say they offer (in most cases) good protection.

 

The point I am defending is

 

1 Someone who has carried out research, found a product, taken the initiative to import them, they then should be able to supply them along with the information they have acquired making a profit  

 

2  A buyer who has limited knowledge/time should be able to obtain a recommended product paying a premium for the ability of ease of purchase and information provided

 

On the other hand if someone takes pleasure/enjoyment on sourcing items and trying them out they are free to do so. What they do with that info is up to them

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

But they all come from the same source.

 

I have approx 60 motors purchased from Ebay (various makes & options) the Mitsumis are ok, but not that great compared to others I've picked up so I only use them as a last resort.

 

Dave

 

You are the person that got me into the 75p motors, they do work but are quite fast with 38-1 gear ratios

[micklner]

34 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Mick

 

I have no problems using both eBay or PayPal, as you say they offer (in most cases) good protection.

 

The point I am defending is

 

1 Someone who has carried out research, found a product, taken the initiative to import them, they then should be able to supply them along with the information they have acquired making a profit  

 

2  A buyer who has limited knowledge/time should be able to obtain a recommended product paying a premium for the ability of ease of purchase and information provided

 

On the other hand if someone takes pleasure/enjoyment on sourcing items and trying them out they are free to do so. What they do with that info is up to them

 

 

Re point 1. I personally have no problem either way. It is a free world and people can buy want they want, the same for selling too . However people should be aware of all options for their hard earned cash. 

 

Re point 2. This motor however  is far superior to the Mitsumi ,in my opinion roughly the same price as being charged as already mentioned in the thread, runs far better and more power than the Mitsumi and the big bonus has the correct mounting holes for the High Level gearboxes I use .  No idea what the seller pays for them, or have the need to know either. However to me, it is a quality product, the Mitsumi is nowhere near as good. IMHO 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Drive-1015-12v-DC-micro-motor/182870714017?epid=0&hash=item2a93f1a6a1:g:uCMAAOSwICpZ9ZjU

[hayfield]

Mick

 

Not too bothered about the Mitsumi, the yard stick I work to is the discontinued Mashima's, which seem to have been the standard for 4 mm scale and the budget option for 7 mm scale

 

The fact that they work with the High Level gearboxes is a bonus, these are my gearbox of choice, as the thread is about the Mashima range, how do they compare please

[micklner]

As good as the Mashima 1015, other may say otherwise however !! . Bit too small for a Pacific however!!

[Buhar]

52 minutes ago, micklner said:

As good as the Mashima 1015, other may say otherwise however !! . Bit too small for a Pacific however!!

That's one of the issues we're dealing with isn't it?  Revs and torque and wheel diameter. There was a body of knowledge and experience around Mashimas that made motor and gearbox selection quite easy. That same data collection needs to emerge around the n-motors, Matsumi and the DJH offering currently under test (other contenders may also emerge).

Alan 

[Ruston]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Ruston

What I was trying to show is unless you have prior knowledge of what to buy it can be a minefield !!, a search on the whole of eBay would have produced many more. It may well be that you have sufficient electrical knowledge to fully understand what you are buying. Most modellers do not have this ability. I have no experience of the N20 and it may be a suitable substitute for some of the Mashima range, again I will deffer this assumption to those who have the technical ability to make that claim. As I said I do have experience of a similar motor as used by others on this site. It works but is really too high revving unless you wish to have TGV's going at full speed, a bit of fun but not something I would put into a model I have invested hours in building

 

A question, how did find out that these N20 motors were suitable for model locomotives ? 

 

You state it only risks a couple of quit, how many couple of quids are you willing to risk before you find the correct motor ?

 

I for one would rather someone in the know does all the research for me, finding something that works is totally different to finding something of the correct specification which can run well over the long term.

 

As for the business ethics of Far Eastern Traders, Many buyers are very wary of buying items on eBay, let alone from the far east, which has a reputation of selling both substandard and fake products. We are constantly being warned about substandard/dangerous items from both Trading Standards and the Fire Brigade. Had these been mains powered I would have stayed well away from them, many of these motors are very cheap items, and cheap for a reason !! It could be simply surplus stock, or substandard items

 

I have no more electrical knowledge than your average modeller but I have both tried things for myself and have seen what other people have tried. I understand that you want to buy a proven product and I would be the same if we were talking about the prices that Mashimas were and still are going for but this whole thread started out being about alternatives for Mashimas and the alternatives that people have found and tried have the bonus of being much cheaper. To me personally, and being just an average modeller (and a Yorkshireman!), it seems a bit silly to waste these savings when it's  something that you can do or source for yourself, rather than pay some else's wages.

 

I don't know how well any of these motors will fare in the long term but do any of us know that yet? Personally I don't have a large layout and it isn't a roundy-roundy, so my engines aren't going to cover huge distances and unless any of these motors pack in very quickly and prove an individual motor as a dud then is  there any reason why they shouldn't last? There's not a lot to the type of motor we put in model engines is there? One moving part, held in two plain bearings and a pair of carbon brushes. Has your British supplier run one of his motors continuously to be able to give you information on their longevity? If not then we're all equallly in the dark, no matter which motors we're trying as alternatives to Mashima, or from whom we have purchased them. Sometimes you have to take a chance, otherwise you may be waiting a long time to find out.

 

I found out about the N20 motorgearbox units from a chap called Geoff Helliwell, on Facebook, who subsequently wrote an article in Railway Modeller ( I think it was August of last year) about them. He freely gave his knowledge (and a few of the motor/gearbox units too!), which was very nice of him and most definitely in the spirit of helping each other over making a profit.

 

How much am I willing to risk before I find the correct motor? I The simple answer is I don't know. I've found three types so far and none have been a risk as they all work and do what I want them to do. If in the future I want another, different, motor for a different application then first of all I'll see what other people are using. On forums such as this, with subjects such as this, is we're here to help each other; we are not here to promote an individual or business. It's a good job that most of us are willing to freely exchange knowledge, rather than keep that knowledge to ourselves and make a profit from it otherwise we'd all be the poorer for it, and not just financially...

 

You may be correct, any of these motors could be surplus stock but the point is that the motors that you can buy from a seller and contributor to this forum are the very same motors you'll buy from China. He makes no bones about it, which is why he isn't being underhand or dishonest.  The only difference is the price.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Ruston

[friscopete]

I wouldnt hang about .These are  often door lock motors  and other uses and who knows how  long they will be installed .We  are getting secondary use so make the most of it .I buy up a few of any that look useful long term and have wasted at least  twenty  quid  so far .My first love are the 6 poles as most of my stuff is low speed US brass. switchers and small roadies

[hayfield]

35 minutes ago, Ruston said:

 

I don't know how well any of these motors will fare in the long term but do any of us know that yet? Personally I don't have a large layout and it isn't a roundy-roundy, so my engines aren't going to cover huge distances and unless any of these motors pack in very quickly and prove an individual motor as a dud then is  there any reason why they shouldn't last? There's not a lot to the type of motor we put in model engines is there? One moving part, held in two plain bearings and a pair of carbon brushes. Has your British supplier run one of his motors continuously to be able to give you information on their longevity? If not then we're all equallly in the dark, no matter which motors we're trying as alternatives to Mashima, or from whom we have purchased them. Sometimes you have to take a chance, otherwise you may be waiting a long time to find out.

 

 

 

Dave

 

You sound a bit like me in that I don't have a large layout. I have found out the hard way that after spending quite a bit of time building a loco I want to make sure the motor and gearbox are of good quality. I have been very disappointed with the old type motor mounts, so have settled on better quality gearboxes High Level and Branchlines to name two which come to mind. Having a small layout slow speeds are what I require, the cheaper motor I have seems to run very fast and is less responsive at slow speeds, unlike the Mashima's. I just want to fit it once whether it be the gearbox or motor 

In talking with a supplier who is looking into Mashima replacements, (as I said in an earlier post) is in communication with a supplier(s) for both a standard can motor which looks to be coming out quite a bit cheaper than the Mashima's, and a better quality coreless which he hopes will retail in the region of what Mashima's are now fetching.

 

For those who like experimenting do go ahead and try out what is on offer. I fall into the group where I value the time and effort invested by those who wish to supply a quality product for a specific purpose. In speaking with said person they seem to understand the technical side which separates an average motor from a good one, I prefer to leave it to them

 

Good luck on your searching/experimenting 

  

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I was going to type a reply until I worked out the cost of doing so.

 

I will now invoice you for this note and expect payment by return in the form of motors....

 

Typical bl**dy chippy!!

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

32 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Typical bl**dy chippy!!

 

Mike.

 

If I was a plumber I would have invoiced without the note 

[Buhar]

55 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

If I was a plumber I would have invoiced without the note 

Additionally, and remembering previous comments about plumbers, the invoice would have been a text message where the only comprehensible bit followed the £ sign. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

If I was a plumber I would have invoiced without the note 

 

Cash only of course!

 

Mike.

[polybear]

And the moment they've got your money they ignore all further calls from you, in case there's trouble with the work they've done....

[trustytrev]

Hello,

       One of the things not mentioned are some motors on ebay have replaceable bushes but others do not. Those that do not come with precious metal tipped arms. As far as I am aware once the metal brushed tips wear out the motor is scrap.

I would think the running life of such motors is likely to be shorter than those with carbon brushes. The thing to remember about motor revs is the higher the RPM the greater reduction is required to achieve a usable torque.

Think of engine revs of a car in first which limits the feasible top speed and less reduction in top gear that enables higher speeds.

trustytrev.:)

[Michael Edge]

The only motors I have seen with worn out metal brushes have been Portescaps (and I've seen a few of of these over the years) so worries over cost and quality might be misplaced. The worn out ones had all run enormous mileages on round and round layouts. I've had no failures yet with any of the cheap Chinese motors fitted in locos.

[Izzy]

There is some concern at present regarding the increasing failure rate of the can motors fitted into Farish locos, and especially the new small 7x16mm coreless. How common or widespread is unknown, but over on the NGF forum there are a couple of threads about the issue, which indicates that like the aforementioned Portescaps the finger brushes have worn away. This apparently after just a year or so of use. 

 

Many motors seem to use these now, are not replaceable as the cans are in any case sealed, yet fairly easily obtained replacement motors are not cheap. I think this is where a lot of the unease is coming from. 

 

Izzy

[billbedford]

Aren't these the same motors?

[cctransuk]

9 hours ago, trustytrev said:

Hello,

       One of the things not mentioned are some motors on ebay have replaceable bushes but others do not. Those that do not come with precious metal tipped arms. As far as I am aware once the metal brushed tips wear out the motor is scrap.

I would think the running life of such motors is likely to be shorter than those with carbon brushes. The thing to remember about motor revs is the higher the RPM the greater reduction is required to achieve a usable torque.

Think of engine revs of a car in first which limits the feasible top speed and less reduction in top gear that enables higher speeds.

trustytrev.:)

 

It is worth mentioning that the Mitsumi motor has conventional carbon brushes. They are not easily replaceable but the life expectancy would be very considerable, and the price of the motor itself renders brush replacement pointless.

 

 

M15N-3 spec sheet.pdf

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.