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Replacement for Mashima


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3 hours ago, billbedford said:

Aren't these the same motors?

 

Sadly not. Just of the same basic coreless design. The NL midi is 8x16mm so won't fit where a 7x16mm is used, well not in the Farish locos anyway. It is also 10v rather than 12v but is 5-pole while most small motors like these are 3-pole because of the difficulties of getting enough windings to take 12v. It's why of course that the smaller ones are 6v.

 

Here's a few shots of one taken apart for anyone interested. It was put back together and has run okay ever since in my 2mm class 15, getting on for 6 years now.

 

788032094_corelessbearingend.jpg.741f5c09f5e445ce68d2df3890ceb084.jpg

 

1908338647_Corelessrotorend.jpg.6030526862b7c67752864095457f0085.jpg

 

1499229666_corelessbrushendcap.jpg.8c898580884d11e7d9f2b3e2cf6ed99f.jpg

 

1423272386_corelesscanbody.jpg.5bd910c3449e5529eb59b9eecda104fd.jpg

 

 

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

It is worth mentioning that the Mitsumi motor has conventional carbon brushes. They are not easily replaceable but the life expectancy would be very considerable, and the price of the motor itself renders brush replacement pointless.

 

324056655_Mitsumibrushes.jpg.ab46418ab23af5e40fcd696226f0b6bd.jpg

 

M15N-3 spec sheet.pdf 58.58 kB · 6 downloads

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Yes, compared to a lot around it is a quality design all round as regards not only the brushes but the thickness of the casing, the bearings etc. The only downside is the size of the actual armature in direct comparison with such as a Mashima.

 

1104177973_RMweb01.jpg.94f24da7ac1b06283e3ec9b725194604.jpg

 

12128003_RMweb02.jpg.de4229c3e46bd99412a5b99159e5f71f.jpg

 

 

However, in tests in a 43xx/P4 chassis and coupled to a HL Roadrunner+ 60-1 box I found the Mitsumi to deliver better performance, whether on DC or on DCC via a Zimo MX600, which I wouldn't have expected. I also found that with the Zimo it performed best on the coreless cv settings being a bit jittery otherwise, as with coreless motors, which seems to indicate to me that it is a quite efficient design.

 

1339604846_RMweb03.jpg.162e050265185e52b2d2488af86c0296.jpg

 

1551425481_RMweb05.jpg.f15f7dc13d30e1a891bc60a53e00d522.jpg

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 25/05/2019 at 14:45, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I've been casting an eye over these, they look very DS10 ish which IMHO was always a decent motor.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2Pcs-DC-12V-36500RPM-5-pole-rotor-dc-motor-high-speed-dual-shaft-carbon-brush6ON/323803328870?hash=item4b642eb166:g:L8IAAOSw5EpcE1xC

 

Mike.

 

 

 

Looks like the DS10-esq motor that had been mentioned here, without any drill holes, that has also be touted as a  possible 1024 replacement is also used in Hornby models and classes as a X7170 .

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-OO-Gauge-5-pole-motor-X7170-no-worm-gear-flywheel/254279682743?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57477%26meid%3Dba6891f3be304db089de4f3b81578642%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D163788129928%26itm%3D254279682743%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

I'm struggling to spot the difference between it and

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2Pcs-DC-12V-36500RPM-5-pole-rotor-dc-motor-high-speed-dual-shaft-carbon-brushDRF/352677966895

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2 hours ago, Down_Under said:

 

 

Looks like the ones I paid £1.74 for 2 with free postage, very high revving, fits a Comet 38/1 gearbox but still a bit fast, 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2PCS-DC-12V-36500RPM-5-Pole-Rotor-DC-Motor-High-Speed-Dual-Shaft-Carbon-Brush/283139461125?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

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36 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Looks like the ones I paid £1.74 for 2 with free postage, very high revving, fits a Comet 38/1 gearbox but still a bit fast, 

 

I was thinking it looked a bit fast. 

 

The one John posted the datasheet for yesterday went at 1/4 the speed (8750rpm although as its rated voltage was 8V, I guess somewhat faster at 12V)  while Mashimas seem to go at between 12000-18000 for the larger ones and 24000 for the 1020 (according to Tower Models anyway - http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/oogauge/mashima/index.htm )

 

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From what has been said to me from a far more knowledgeable person on this subject, is that two motors that look the same but from different sources can be quite different. Now I do not want to rubbish the Hornby product as unless you can compare the specifications the motors can have different cherastics, the armature and case may be the same, but if the armature has been would differently they would not perform the same as each other.  That's why I will happily wait for those who I trust to do the sourcing 

 

In one way how much have you lost by buying a couple ? providing you do not mind chopping and changing motors. Its one thing buying surplus stock from a Chinese website where the postage is subsidised buy their government. If a UK public company imports an item the costs of them handling the item escalate, the handling costs of a motor will be much the same as a piece of rolling stock 

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The EMGS manual contains a wealth of information on the various 12v motors that have been available over the years.

 

The information relating to the popular Mashima motors shows that the 1020  had a no load speed of 15000 rev/min at 12 volts. with max power developed at 7500 rev/min.

 

The performance table of all the Mashima Motors normally used for 4mm locos is attached. These are the speed and power levels that we have become used to, but In have yet to see any comparable figures for the various other motors talked about in this thread.

 

Mashima can motor performace summary.pdf

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4 hours ago, sharris said:

 

I was thinking it looked a bit fast. 

 

The one John posted the datasheet for yesterday went at 1/4 the speed (8750rpm although as its rated voltage was 8V, I guess somewhat faster at 12V)  while Mashimas seem to go at between 12000-18000 for the larger ones and 24000 for the 1020 (according to Tower Models anyway - http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/oogauge/mashima/index.htm )

 

 

One of the characteristics of the Mitsumi motor is that it runs significantly slower than the equivalent Mashima motor.

 

I find this useful, as a lower reduction gear ratio is required, and / or smooth and slow running is improved.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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15 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

One of the characteristics of the Mitsumi motor is that it runs significantly slower than the equivalent Mashima motor.

 

I find this useful, as a lower reduction gear ratio is required, and / or smooth and slow running is improved.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hi John,

I understand you've fitted this motor to at least three different types of loco, the 3F (5'3" wheels, I presume), the Jinty with 4'7" wheels and the West Country with 6'2" wheels.  That is actually a good range of types.  I seem to recall you commenting that the behaviour on starting was satisfying and that the 3F "cantered along" smoothly.  I would expect the Jinty to be comfortable at a scale 30mph (maybe a tad less but did they get up to higher speeds on their north London passenger workings?).  What would you assess your canter as being for the 3F?  I would expect 40-50mph as a top speed but you may not have the space to achieve that, let alone for WC which could probably expect to do 80mph.  Were they all HL gearboxes and did you vary the ratios?

Alan

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11 hours ago, Buhar said:

Hi John,

I understand you've fitted this motor to at least three different types of loco, the 3F (5'3" wheels, I presume), the Jinty with 4'7" wheels and the West Country with 6'2" wheels.  That is actually a good range of types.  I seem to recall you commenting that the behaviour on starting was satisfying and that the 3F "cantered along" smoothly.  I would expect the Jinty to be comfortable at a scale 30mph (maybe a tad less but did they get up to higher speeds on their north London passenger workings?).  What would you assess your canter as being for the 3F?  I would expect 40-50mph as a top speed but you may not have the space to achieve that, let alone for WC which could probably expect to do 80mph.  Were they all HL gearboxes and did you vary the ratios?

Alan

 

Alan,

 

I am not going to represent myself as any form of expert on assessing model loco speeds; just an average modeller who can tell if a loco performs as I would wish.

 

All I can say is that my locos are intended to run on a model of Evercreech Junction (S&DJR) set in 1961. To be acceptable, they will have to be capable of running in a prototypical manner when hauling long trains.

 

It is clearly essential to select the appropriate gearbox ratio for the intended application and, as I use High Level gearboxes exclusively, I always consult their on-line speed calculator before ordering. Combined with the Mitsumi performance sheet, it is easy to get the right combination for any application.

 

Suffice to say that unbuilt several loco projects, for which I have had Mashima motors in stock for some time, have recently had Mitsumi motors substituted.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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5 hours ago, hayfield said:

Looking through what's available this is a N30 slightly faster at 6v but 25k at 12 v against a N20 at 33.5 k, any thoughts please

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-5-10pcs-Micro-N30-Motor-Metal-Brush-DC6V-12V-25000RPM-10-12mm-Large-Torque-DIY/273509907246?hash=item3fae75fb2e:m:mP95VXBvW6OVAn4vI1K8RQQ&var=572906449662

 

Looking at other photos of the same motor - the brushes are not carbon-tipped; just metal strips which would not have a long life IMHO.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

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  • 1 month later...

If some people have now used some of these Chinese etc motors, may I beg the benefit of that experience.

 

I shall need a 1015 size motor before long, there seem to be three possibilities

The 10mm square 6 pole on eBay

The N20 (also eBay)

The N-drive 1015.

 

Any suggestions which would be preferable (with 54:1 High Level gearbox)?

My concern is not really with power or even longevity, but being for light use on a light railway more for smooth starting and slow running.

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Thanks Bill, what sort of price would they be?

 

Which raises a question. I've not used the Mashima 1015 either, but have occasionally read some less than enthusiastic comments by those who have.

Is the Mashima sufficiently better than the other three to be worth the extra cost? (Which, when you live on not a lot of pension, is a real consideration).

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1 hour ago, johnarcher said:

Thanks Bill, what sort of price would they be?

 

Which raises a question. I've not used the Mashima 1015 either, but have occasionally read some less than enthusiastic comments by those who have.

Is the Mashima sufficiently better than the other three to be worth the extra cost? (Which, when you live on not a lot of pension, is a real consideration).

I have found that the Chinese N20 motors (motors only, fitted to High Level gearboxes, not the N20s with the brass gearboxes attached) are just as good as the equivalent Mashima. Other people will no doubt have differing opinions and experience but either way a Mashima isn't worth £23 more than the Chinese motor.

 

Of course the Chinese N20 doesn't have the screw holes in the right place for High Level gearboxes but at least the shafts don't need sleeving up to 1.5mm anymore as Chris sells worms with a 1mm bore now.

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  • 3 months later...

Well time has moved on so no harm in sharing some experiences and asking for some opinions:

 

I have used the Mitsumi M15N in 3 loco's now and have nothing but praise for it. Even with 40:1 gears it produced a very smooth running loco for shunting, and with 68:1 I ended up with a pannier tank that is actually slower than it's prototype!

 

But - on my smallish industrial layout I have no way of really putting these motors to the test. I now have to build a fairly hefty white metal 0-6-0 tender loco for a friend. I was planning to use one of those very nice Mineaba 15mm square 6 pole cans, which seem to have plenty of power, but it's too fat for the waisted firebox on the J17. Has anyone used one of the Mitsumis in a decently gruelling application, and can report back on it's power and durability? Alternatively I could try one of those open frame 5 poles with the skew wound armature, though they are so fast it would take 108:1 to tame one. Still, not a problem if they have the guts for the job.

 

Happy to hear of your experiences.

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50 minutes ago, Barclay said:

Well time has moved on so no harm in sharing some experiences and asking for some opinions:

 

I have used the Mitsumi M15N in 3 loco's now and have nothing but praise for it. Even with 40:1 gears it produced a very smooth running loco for shunting, and with 68:1 I ended up with a pannier tank that is actually slower than it's prototype!

 

But - on my smallish industrial layout I have no way of really putting these motors to the test. I now have to build a fairly hefty white metal 0-6-0 tender loco for a friend. I was planning to use one of those very nice Mineaba 15mm square 6 pole cans, which seem to have plenty of power, but it's too fat for the waisted firebox on the J17. Has anyone used one of the Mitsumis in a decently gruelling application, and can report back on it's power and durability? Alternatively I could try one of those open frame 5 poles with the skew wound armature, though they are so fast it would take 108:1 to tame one. Still, not a problem if they have the guts for the job.

 

Happy to hear of your experiences.

 

Have you had a chat with Chris from High Level, he now has a replacement for the Mashima, at Scale forum he had one typy I think for about £15 and I ought a coreless motor at a show special price of £25

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  • 1 month later...
On 03/06/2019 at 04:33, Barry Ten said:

Branchlines have been supplying the Hanazono 10/24 motor as a substitute for the Mashima equivalent. I've used them in a couple

of chassis with Branchlines' single stage gearbox with good results. The mounting holes are at 10mm centres rather than 8mm with

the Mashima.

Hi Al,

 

Are Branchlines still in business? All I can find online is a June 2008 Blog, an email address and nothing since. That's a long time ago.

 

Scanned thru all 190 pages of digital BRM and no sign either.

 

Colin

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The blog is still there but it's not relevant to the present Branchlines business, it dates back to when Andy Mullins was the owner.

Best way to contact them is by phone (9-5 weekdays) on 01373 822231 or email sales@branchlines.com

I usually get orders from Brian next day or so.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

The blog is still there but it's not relevant to the present Branchlines business, it dates back to when Andy Mullins was the owner.

Best way to contact them is by phone (9-5 weekdays) on 01373 822231 or email sales@branchlines.com

I usually get orders from Brian next day or so.

 

Do you have their current product listing (pdf perhaps) that you could send me?

 

I'm getting frustrated by the 11 hr time differential and need to finalise all my purchases very shortly as one option I'm considering is in short supply. If you do, could you email to me? I'll PM my address if that's ok.

 

Colin

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