RMweb Premium Dava Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 So here we go again. Iron and steelmaking are fundamentally connected with railways; neither would have existed in any scale without the other. Last time it was Port Talbot under threat and now British Steel Scunthorpe is in liquidation but still operating, at least for now. This thread is about the people, the railways and the industry, past present and let's hope there is a future. There are people on the forum whose livelihoods depend on the works and the railways so let's respect them. Let's also keep European and related politics out of it at this time when feelings run high. The Port Talbot thread was closed down when it became acrimonious. Fortunately the works survived! The Scunthorpe industrial rail system is the largest and most complex in the UK, as those who've ridden the tours will know. The plant is a major rail user in North-East England, together with its sister plants in Middlesborough and Skinningrove. Without steel traffic many of those Class 60's we're so fond of would end up back on the scrapline. Owning and running a major steel plant is probably the most expensive industry to be in outside nuclear power, the economics are complex and the costs are huge. If you care about the heavy end of railways, you probably care about steelmaking. And if the steelworks closes, it takes the town at least 20 years to recover, if it ever does. Let's hope it doesn't come to that because it would decimate North Lincolnshire and its economy. What do you think? Dava 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 Scunthorpe in another way too, since it's where a lot of the rail used in this country and elsewhere is manufactured. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted May 22, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 Some photo collections, feel free to add yours .... Here is a link to Paul Bartlett's slideshow: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/scunthorpesteel/h67C00BB5#h90e0dd96 Branch Line Society: https://www.branchline.uk/album.php?id=193 Site rail map: https://www.branchline.uk/photo.php?id=137&seq=7 Appleby Frodingham Railway Preservation Society: http://www.afrps.co.uk/ Press photos from the site: https://www.scunthorpetelegraph.co.uk/news/history/gallery/iconic-pictures-from-scunthorpe-steelworks-110884 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 How many decades is it since the UK had a government with a credible industrial policy and the willingness to acknowledge our national interests, let alone safeguard them? Ravenscraig, Llanwern , Redcar... every time I think, "that's it, we've reached rock bottom now, the retrenchment will stop". Seems I was too optimistic. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 It's hard to comment on this sad news and not mention politics - however if we, as a nation, continue to lose our ability to produce both much needed and strategically important items (like steel, railway rails etc etc) then we are just leaving ourselves open to more and more exploitation by foreign concerns. Britain is known throughout the rest of the world as "Treasure Island" for the takeover of most of our basic manufacturing & infrastructure by foreign concerns, then milking us dry. Nuff said - I feel for the workers, families and all connected concerns over in and around Scunthorpe. Will our Government intervene ? - I certainly hope so - fingers crossed. Brit15 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Of course this would be tragic for the employees, their families and suppliers, local shops etc etc. But there is also a national implication for the railways (aside from the loss of trainload work from and to the plant): https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/22/british-steels-closure-would-have-huge-knock-on-effects HMG cite competition and state aid rules as preventing them from providing further assistance. But such rules do not prevent state acquisition of (or in certain circumstances state aid to) a company deemed to be in the national, strategic interest. If this case doesn't apply, then I'm a Dutchman. They have been used from time to time elsewhere, so there is clear precedent. Once again, our govt is being entirely selective when interpreting such rules - if it was worried about such rules in reality, which would take a year or two to enforce, when we are presumably leaving the source of the very rules they have used as their excuse in the next 5 months, it demonstrates that there is more behind this decision than they will admit. Ideology. End of politicking. Sorry if that breaks the rules. 12 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted May 22, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 A year or so back there was an industrial strategy which was based in part on making things. Now those 'in power' are making it up as they go along. I have a big concern that the people in Scunthorpe will be sold down the river whilst other dramas are played out. Scunthorpe has been a very resilient steel plant and its efficiency and produtivity are very high. We do need steel for major projects such as, where to start, rebuilding Parliamant [with Belgian steel] , HS2, rail modernization, electrification etc. Once a major strategic capability is lost it is not easily replaced, but costs a lot to run if the demand is not there in what may well become an economic and trade downturn. Resulting in part from US-China trade conflicts over commodities such as steel. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dave John Posted May 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hmm. Maybe an old fool point of view, but I am. British industry died when it became cheaper to drill a hole in a 2p piece than to buy a penny washer. And they don't rust ....... 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted May 22, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2019 You can fill your boots [or plastic bags] with steel washers in Wilko's for much less than 2p each. All made in China I suspect. Which may be part of the problem. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Dava said: You can fill your boots [or plastic bags] with steel washers in Wilko's for much less than 2p each. All made in China I suspect. Which may be part of the problem. China has made more steel in the last couple of years than the UK had produced in its entire history.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 It'll have a big impact on the railway if it does end up closing down. NR buys almost all its rail from Scunthorpe, I believe. Only some specialised components which they don't make in the UK come from abroad. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 8 hours ago, Dave John said: Hmm. Maybe an old fool point of view, but I am. British industry died when it became cheaper to drill a hole in a 2p piece than to buy a penny washer. And they don't rust ....... 'Copper' coins have been made of copper-coated steel for some years now... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdseyecircus Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 It's always heart breaking when you hear of big industries in trouble. I hope it can be saved. Many people forget too the other folk involved from the newsagent selling papers on the way to work to all the dock workers, contractors doing repair work etc. It will end up costing the UK a fortune. Paul 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Clearwater said: China has made more steel in the last couple of years than the UK had produced in its entire history.... Most, if not all the Iron Ore (and a lot of coal also) is imported into China from Australia. Such is the vastness of both China and India's steel production utilising very cheap labour - just how can we compete ? Brit15 Edited May 23, 2019 by APOLLO Typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted May 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2019 Good news. It will help us achieve our carbon emission targets. (Exporting the emissions and then transporting the stuff doesn’t count of course) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Whilst Germany build brand new Lignite (dirty coal) powered power stations . https://bernhard-goldkuhle.com/en/projekte/neurath-power-plant/ Brit15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 59 minutes ago, APOLLO said: Most, if not all the Iron Ore (and a lot of coal also) is imported into China from Australia. Such is the vastness of both China and India's steel production utilising very cheap labour - just how can we compete ? Brit15 Unless British steel workers are willing to live and work in a similar fashion to their Chinese and Indian counterparts, we can't compete on cost grounds. I don't know enough about the industry to know if there even are other grounds that we could effectively compete on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 55 minutes ago, Zomboid said: Unless British steel workers are willing to live and work in a similar fashion to their Chinese and Indian counterparts, we can't compete on cost grounds. I don't know enough about the industry to know if there even are other grounds that we could effectively compete on. Quality, perhaps? Elsewhere on this forum, the failure of Mazac castings, due to poor quality control not detecting lead contamination of the zinc, has been documented. Is it not possible that a similar situation might arise in the ferrous metals field? I have already seen so-called 'stainless' steel items corroding;; might this be indicative of a more general problem? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted May 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2019 Back to steel and railways, in the ealy 60's my Dad helped wire up the then brand new CWR plant in Motherwell. The money he made paid for the deposit on a house (and more). He still talks about those times. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Zomboid said: Unless British steel workers are willing to live and work in a similar fashion to their Chinese and Indian counterparts, we can't compete on cost grounds. I don't know enough about the industry to know if there even are other grounds that we could effectively compete on. Probably only specialist steels (which includes those used for rails), but then that applies to Europe as well, and unless something changes for the better, we are about to shut the door on that as well. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted May 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said: Probably only specialist steels (which includes those used for rails), but then that applies to Europe as well, and unless something changes for the better, we are about to shut the door on that as well. Jim Without wishing to get political, I think the current crisis in the steel industry is an example of why it is fallacious to talk of being an independent country. The modern world just does not work like that. What is the point of having an army if we can not make steel from which to produce armoured vehicles? 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said: Without wishing to get political, I think the current crisis in the steel industry is an example of why it is fallacious to talk of being an independent country. The modern world just does not work like that. What is the point of having an army if we can not make steel from which to produce armoured vehicles? or the special non-magnetic steels used in nuclear submarines - let alone the special steel required for nuclear power plants 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Fat Controller said: Quality, perhaps? Elsewhere on this forum, the failure of Mazac castings, due to poor quality control not detecting lead contamination of the zinc, has been documented. Is it not possible that a similar situation might arise in the ferrous metals field? I have already seen so-called 'stainless' steel items corroding;; might this be indicative of a more general problem? Quality definitely Google Chinese rebar https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/news/knowledge-news/chinese-rebar-samples-fail-independent-british-compliance-tests-19-08-2014/ Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffield Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 The Government tell us that there are legal difficulties that restirct or prevent money being given to support British Steel. Are these the same laws and rules that did not prevent massive support for the banks 11 years ago? Why can they do it for the banks and people in the "City" and not for the steel makers and the people of North Linclonshire? 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 Germany and France certainly support their own industries - steel included. One rule for them and another one (which we foolishly adhere to) for the UK Brit15 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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