6(ish) x 4(ish) OO layout to keep everyone happy!

[metijg]

Hello everyone, 

 

This is my first post, but I've been stalking the forums for a while and I'd love to have some input. Also, I've become more obsessed by model railways than I expected and it's nice to get involved rather than just watch.. 

A very quick potted history, which I'm sure is typical of many:  Starting as a not unwilling participant in a dad-driven layout when I was a boy, became too cool for it all, then didn't think about trains again until I had kids and now trying to build a layout that satisfies three generations and my own personal unearthed muse to do finally do things right.

 

I listed my criteria:

•  00 - It's what we knew
•  Must fit in the available space, but can't involve touching the house in case the interest is not sustained = Free standing 6 x 4 layout
•  Must keep all three generations happy, so simple yet complex, playable yet prototypical..
•  Must allow trains to run without too much nursing
•  Set-track based to allow easy testing
•  Possibility for narrow gauge. Too many holidays in wales 30 years ago

 

But before we went too crazy we did a test. We bought Hornby track packs A - C and put them together as instructed and ran some trains on a board, on top of a door, on top of some piles of books. Almost unqualified success, the only problem was the Hornby controller that tripped every 2 minutes, quickly rectified with a Guagmaster dual controller - much better

 

 

[metijg]

Pressed submit too soon..

 

The next step was to try and define a track plan that could satisfy all criteria mentioned above (hence this topic) . I did a lot of research online and came to the conclusion that the anser to my prayers was Bredon, which I found from the PECO track plan book. The back-story is that the dual lines (on the tight) are main lines, leading to a station that is basically a terminus, but has a branch line that continues on to the left. I could see a lot of potential for modeling with some feeling of working towards something prototypical, but still allowing to play with trains. 

 

Translating the PECO plan into reality was surprisingly difficult, even though it already was ready for set track. The entry to the station on the right was particularly hard, especially as I decided I wanted to avoid curved points on both sides. Also the storage tracks out of shot never really seemed to join up, so I bodged them with settrack in the plan knowing that I would do some bending in real-life. The narrow gauge was simply envisaged to run off-shot into some short of welsh slate mine environment. This wasn't fully elaborated in my mind, but the interface with the OO gauge track was, and I wanted to model the Talyllyn gravity fed wagon turntables. For an over-optimistic moment I watched a few youtube videos (the end of the line..) and dreamed of automatic tipping from one to the other, thankfully I realised that will be for another life and dropped it

 

After doing an audit of the track the elements needed were quite similar to the Hornby track-packs, so it looked good with only some further expenditure. Some small woodwork later and the board was flat(ish) and stable(ish) and the track could be laid out. I gave myself a weekend to get it done before showing it to the generation + and - 1. It was surprisingly stressful, the points on the right were as troublesome as expected and the electrics were infernal. Its a part I never had to deal with as a boy. However, I finally got something working that was close to the plan using only set-track. The blue and green circuits were wired up independently.

 

The narrow gauge part was build on seed boxes and a few carboard tunnels entrances were made. 

 

What was the result? Disaster!

 

The double to single track on the left did not work at all. To do a full round a train either has to stay on the inner circuit (Blue) or do a mix of the outer and inner (Blue and Green. While it was possible to run two trains, it required a permanent point switcher and driver, both posts I thought the kids would like, but they didn't. Cooperation is never easy without clear hierarchy..! The fun of double tracks - racing trains, swapping tracks running one fast and one slow, or in opposite directions all disappeared. No one cared about shunting and my efforts to explain the main line /branch line thing fell on deaf ears. Left hand running? Nothing. Also the storage area was just a waste of track...no one was stopping trains there they just want to run. 

 

Finally, the narrow gauge was cool. Its significantly smaller than I expected and also more durable. It ticked all the cute boxes and was the only clear, unmitigated hit. 

 

Back to the drawing board

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by metijg

[mdvle]

It sounds to me like what you want, and what the kids want, are 2 different things and thus when you built something that was closer to what you wanted the issues occurred.

 

For now at least is sounds like the kids want the train equivalent of a slot car set (nothing wrong with that), and that means double track oval.

 

Perhaps view it as 2 separate layouts on one board - the OO for those who just want to run / race trains, and then the narrow gauge done more prototypically to suit your interests.  You could then also maybe the OO storage a dual purpose that could be used as storage, or as a more prototypical goods yard for you.

 

Then, re-evaluate if things change over time.

[Zomboid]

It's pretty clear that what you need is two circuits. But don't neglect having some siding space if you can - even when I was in my childhood stage of having train races I liked to be able to swap one train for another. And it's possible that one day they might show some interest in more realistic operations and then having a track layout to permit that will be helpful. But for now you need 2 circuits and lots of capacity for crashes.

 

Not a bad call to have the narrow gauge on there too so you can play trains in a more realistic manner.

[metijg]

Thanks for your replies. I definitely see the narrow gauge as the place to be a bit more detailed and the OO as the 'race track'. 

 

The next idea is to link up the siding in front of the station to the double line to bring back the racing possibilities and to lose the scenic divide and have a visual break, tunnel, hill or something in the top left corner. The pointwork on the right of the station was also very deraily so i'm thinking of moving up to 'express points'. I'm also imagining some gradient changes, so that the OO track follows the gradient of the narrow gauge a bit. 

 

This feels like a good solution?

[rodshaw]

Depending on how much scenery or building space you want, there seems to be scope for extending the narrow gauge part into the space to the right of where it is now. Or possibly moving the standard gauge siding/station area over to the left and giving you more room for narrow gauge in the middle.

[mdvle]

If you do end up liking the long tunnel idea, perhaps a mock up using paper/cardboard first to make sure that the kids are happy with their trains being hidden for half the loop.

[metijg]

Following your comments rod I had a bit of a dig for narrow gauge based ideas that could add interest. I like the Talylln transshipment area (although, for the life of me, I can't work out how it functioned, how did a loco run around???) but I also came across the spiral on the Ffestiniog railway, while it was not an original feature it is a something that exists in the real world. The narrow gauge track would then run into the space on the right, do a 360 turn to gain the height and then cross the 00 line, which could also make a useful scenic break and then run above the standard gauge track. 

 

Also the standard gauge I would model as a mainline on the right, a branchline for the inner left hand line and a private good line for the outer left hand line. Ballast, signals et. could reflect these things. The trains would generally just run, but some operating model could also be developed as the smaller generation grew up

 

I'd be interested to have your thoughts!

Thanks!

[DCB]

The tunnel looks like a major mistake.   I would suggest leaving the layout as a bare board and letting the kids alter the track layout from time to time so they learn what works and what does not   Otherwise any double track oval is good for racing, even a highly detailed exhibition layout....

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, metijg said:

The pointwork on the right of the station was also very deraily so i'm thinking of moving up to 'express points'.

 

"deraily" - love it. So long as everyone is having fun!

[JDW]

Yeah "deraily" should be a word! That pointwork to the bottom right still looks a bit awkward, instead of the right hand point, R606 curve, left hand point, R606 curve, I'd put two right hand points one after the other to give a smoother, less deraily run, plus it creates a slightly longer loop.

[Kris]

On 24/05/2019 at 19:55, DavidCBroad said:

The tunnel looks like a major mistake. 

 

I'm going to politely disagree. My 2 boy's love the tunnel on their layout. It gives them the chance to stop the train in it and pretend that it has got somewhere else and is making a longer journey. 

 

[metijg]

The interesting thing is that the Generation -1 and +1 from me are both reasonably aligned on what the y want to see = trains running. I'm alone doing the work and over-thinking the track plans and scenic angles.. 

 

Thanks JDW, I will try swapping those points over, if it makes the loop just a few cm longer it also changes the storage capacity significantly so that would be great. I'll let you know

On 26/05/2019 at 14:34, JDW said:

Yeah "deraily" should be a word! That pointwork to the bottom right still looks a bit awkward, instead of the right hand point, R606 curve, left hand point, R606 curve, I'd put two right hand points one after the other to give a smoother, less deraily run, plus it creates a slightly longer loop.

 

The jury is still out on the tunnel. As I mentioned I have started with some gradient, so the back tracks are now Woodland scenic risered up to 1" off the baseboard., This is a big hit as it changes the race dynamic of the two tracks. I'll try a temporary cover and lets see how that plays out

On 26/05/2019 at 14:52, Kris said:

 

I'm going to politely disagree. My 2 boy's love the tunnel on their layout. It gives them the chance to stop the train in it and pretend that it has got somewhere else and is making a longer journey. 

 

 

Still trying to decide on the final track plan for the 009. 360 sounds very attractive, but still not sure if I need a run-around loop or not. 

 

[The Johnster]

It's a well thought out basic plan, with more than a hint of Bredon to it, a well proven concept.  It needs to be at least semi permanently fixed down though, or things will become 'deraily' and track connectors are flimsy and easily damaged.  I appreciate the point that the young 'uns like to make up new layouts, and setrack should be robust enough for this, but to be honest it isn't.  Brio and similar are ideal for this, and can be enjoyed by children much older than the 'suitable for ages' on the box; a friend of mine whose kids have a large collection of it is prone to asking me over and building accurate track plans of stations we know over a bottle of wine.

 

If the layout has an element of permanency to it, my feeling is that this actually increases the play value for children as well as conferring better running, a defined little world for their imaginations to work on.  Poor running and constant derailiness will sap their enthusiasm quicker than being told something's good for them!  I'd leave the tunnel off for now, have it all open and get attable, but keep the idea in their minds so it can be added at their request later.  They'll go for racing and seeing which loco comes out into the open first sooner or later, but it's a good idea not to have a loading gauge until they's stopped having Malibu Stacey sitting on a conflat or Woody on the tender driving the locos.  Keep detail simple and basic as well, it can be built up over time as the kids want it and are better able to not knock telegraph poles or signals over.  It can be subtly educational; add the signals when you get a signal box, add telegraph poles when you get a telephone kiosk and so on.  There's scope for more and more complex operation, and more realistic operation as well, and of course more and more delicate detail as the kids grow into appreciating and demanding it.

 

I'd keep the narrow gauge as it is, end to end, and not make another continuous loop of it.  This will help to emphasise that it's a different sort of railway, and encourage them to think of different sorts of operation.  As it stands, you need a pilot loco to release the train loco or you are propelling in one direction.  How about a triangle at the scenic end; chance to teach them about isolating sections and reversing polarity?  

[Jongudmund]

3 hours ago, metijg said:

 

The jury is still out on the tunnel. As I mentioned I have started with some gradient, so the back tracks are now Woodland scenic risered up to 1" off the baseboard., This is a big hit as it changes the race dynamic of the two tracks. I'll try a temporary cover and lets see how that plays out

 

 

Could you have just one track going into a tunnel (or a couple of tunnels) and one not? Or one only going into the tunnel at half the length? Would make it look more interesting.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jongudmund

[Zomboid]

Have it twin bore at one end, and single bore at the other, it'll be a bit more interesting and could credibly be two different tunnels.

[ess1uk]

On 23/05/2019 at 13:26, metijg said:

Hello everyone, 

 

This is my first post, but I've been stalking the forums for a while and I'd love to have some input. Also, I've become more obsessed by model railways than I expected and it's nice to get involved rather than just watch.. 

A very quick potted history, which I'm sure is typical of many:  Starting as a not unwilling participant in a dad-driven layout when I was a boy, became too cool for it all, then didn't think about trains again until I had kids and now trying to build a layout that satisfies three generations and my own personal unearthed muse to do finally do things right.

 

I listed my criteria:

•  00 - It's what we knew
•  Must fit in the available space, but can't involve touching the house in case the interest is not sustained = Free standing 6 x 4 layout
•  Must keep all three generations happy, so simple yet complex, playable yet prototypical..
•  Must allow trains to run without too much nursing
•  Set-track based to allow easy testing
•  Possibility for narrow gauge. Too many holidays in wales 30 years ago

 

But before we went too crazy we did a test. We bought Hornby track packs A - C and put them together as instructed and ran some trains on a board, on top of a door, on top of some piles of books. Almost unqualified success, the only problem was the Hornby controller that tripped every 2 minutes, quickly rectified with a Guagmaster dual controller - much better

 

 

Welcome.

all sounds very familiar.

good luck and enjoy 

[rogerzilla]

Here's the 6' x 4' layout in my daughter's bedroom (it swings up and hangs from chains* when in use, so all the buildings are robust plastic ones as they need to be removed and replaced frequently).  Outer loop is 3rd radius, inner loop is 2nd radius so anything can run on these.  The very inner siding loop has a lot of 1st radius so the Class 14xx struggles, with its long 0-4-2 fixed wheelbase.  Everything else manages it ok.

 

Trains can change between loops as the crossover has insulating fishplates between the points.  As long as the loco has pickups on all wheels and the power setting is the same for both circuits, it's seamless.

 

Everything is setrack except for the short straight pieces in the middle of the 3rd radius loop curves, which were cut to fit.  All the track was secondhand.

 

All the points are at the front because you can't reach the back when it's horizontal!  Track cleaning is easy, though, because you do it when it's hanging against the wall.

 

I was using Hornby R.965 controllers screwed to the bottom LH corner but am halfway through changing to a Gaugemaster DS/HF-2.  I'm just waiting for a 6-pin automotive plug and socket to turn up, since the DS can't be bolted to the baseboard.

 

20190529_080617 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

 

*you need very strong fixings and chain, since a chipboard baseboard with timber framing is heavy

Edited May 29, 2019 by rogerzilla

[metijg]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Have it twin bore at one end, and single bore at the other, it'll be a bit more interesting and could credibly be two different tunnels.

 

This is exactly the conclusion I came to, if I wanted to model somewhat for me as well as the kids.  The right hand side tracks will be 'main line' and go into a double bore tunnel and then slightly separate to come out of two separate tunnels, the left hand one would then be conceptually a goods line and the right hand one a branch-line, which then fits with the single platform station. 

 

I've started putting this together to test, I'll share a photo later. 

 

[metijg]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd keep the narrow gauge as it is, end to end, and not make another continuous loop of it.  This will help to emphasise that it's a different sort of railway, and encourage them to think of different sorts of operation.  As it stands, you need a pilot loco to release the train loco or you are propelling in one direction.  How about a triangle at the scenic end; chance to teach them about isolating sections and reversing polarity?  

 

Agreed on this. I was thinking about having a Ffestinog style spiral to gain height in the space on the right, but keep the end-to-end nature of the line. I'll try and set something up to test the heights over the summer

[metijg]

6 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Here's the 6' x 4' layout in my daughter's bedroom (it swings up and hangs from chains* when in use, so all the buildings are robust plastic ones as they need to be removed and replaced frequently).  Outer loop is 3rd radius, inner loop is 2nd radius so anything can run on these.  The very inner siding loop has a lot of 1st radius so the Class 14xx struggles, with its long 0-4-2 fixed wheelbase.  Everything else manages it ok.

 

 

Very nice! Did it start off from Hornby track packs as well? I like the inside loop to siding, it gives the track a maze-like feel

[rogerzilla]

Yes, lots of track packs in there.  There isn't a massive amount you can do with 6' x 4' in OO - I had more like 18' x 6' in the loft when I was little - but at least this gives the locos a decent run.

[PatB]

On 29/05/2019 at 15:09, rogerzilla said:

Here's the 6' x 4' layout in my daughter's bedroom (it swings up and hangs from chains* when in use, so all the buildings are robust plastic ones as they need to be removed and replaced frequently).  Outer loop is 3rd radius, inner loop is 2nd radius so anything can run on these.  The very inner siding loop has a lot of 1st radius so the Class 14xx struggles, with its long 0-4-2 fixed wheelbase.  Everything else manages it ok.

 

Trains can change between loops as the crossover has insulating fishplates between the points.  As long as the loco has pickups on all wheels and the power setting is the same for both circuits, it's seamless.

 

Everything is setrack except for the short straight pieces in the middle of the 3rd radius loop curves, which were cut to fit.  All the track was secondhand.

 

All the points are at the front because you can't reach the back when it's horizontal!  Track cleaning is easy, though, because you do it when it's hanging against the wall.

 

I was using Hornby R.965 controllers screwed to the bottom LH corner but am halfway through changing to a Gaugemaster DS/HF-2.  I'm just waiting for a 6-pin automotive plug and socket to turn up, since the DS can't be bolted to the baseboard.

 

20190529_080617 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

 

*you need very strong fixings and chain, since a chipboard baseboard with timber framing is heavy

 

The Railways Inspectorate might want a word about that facing crossover ;).

 

5 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

Yes, lots of track packs in there.  There isn't a massive amount you can do with 6' x 4' in OO - I had more like 18' x 6' in the loft when I was little - but at least this gives the locos a decent run.

 

I dunno. Perusal of early editions of Freezer's 60 Plans and Track Plans books reveal a few variations. Some are rather more difficult to realise since the demise of R1 points though :D.

[Zomboid]

There's countless threads on here that show that you can do a lot in 6x4 or smaller. Such as this one. (The original layout might have been a failure for small children, but now I'm pushing 40, I reckon I'd have had a lot of fun with it). Many of us make do with much less than 6x4...

 

Obviously 11 car pendolinos in OO aren't a realistic goal in this kind of space though.

[DCB]

On 29/05/2019 at 08:09, rogerzilla said:

Here's the 6' x 4' layout in my daughter's bedroom (it swings up and hangs from chains* when in use, so all the buildings are robust plastic ones as they need to be removed and replaced frequently).  Outer loop is 3rd radius, inner loop is 2nd radius so anything can run on these.  The very inner siding loop has a lot of 1st radius so the Class 14xx struggles, with its long 0-4-2 fixed wheelbase.  Everything else manages it ok.

 

Trains can change between loops as the crossover has insulating fishplates between the points.  As long as the loco has pickups on all wheels and the power setting is the same for both circuits, it's seamless.

 

Everything is setrack except for the short straight pieces in the middle of the 3rd radius loop curves, which were cut to fit.  All the track was secondhand.

 

All the points are at the front because you can't reach the back when it's horizontal!  Track cleaning is easy, though, because you do it when it's hanging against the wall.

 

I was using Hornby R.965 controllers screwed to the bottom LH corner but am halfway through changing to a Gaugemaster DS/HF-2.  I'm just waiting for a 6-pin automotive plug and socket to turn up, since the DS can't be bolted to the baseboard.

 

20190529_080617 by rogerzilla, on Flickr

 

*you need very strong fixings and chain, since a chipboard baseboard with timber framing is heavy

Thats a brilliant solution to the 6X4.   I reckon a bit of tweaking and maybe some 4th radius track could have let the innermost track be 2 nd radius but that looks like hours of fun.  Key to these layouts in my view is a well engineered baseboard, strong but light.  My solution 25 years ago was 2X1 sides with 2X1 crosspieces, laid flat and a thin MDF baseboard surface, the MDF was between the edge frames not on top, resting on the 25mm high 2X1 crosspieces which were laid on their sides.  If I did another I would use larger sides 75 X 25 to give a lip when using 2X1 on nits edge in the middle, but it worked well until i was kicked out of the spare bedroom on the dubious ground that my new born son needed to sleep in there.  He could have shared with the railway.