Coal for Heritage Railways

[birdseyecircus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-48398727

 

Paul

[Boris]

The noises from the HRA indicated that some form of heritage cooperative may be the answer where preserved railways join to make it cost effective to import coal, bearing in mind that this DEFRA measure will likely lead to the collapse of the current domestic coal distribution network it will still be quite difficult.   Six years is a long time though.

[Reorte]

I thought they'd rejected such a ban for now (or maybe it was only "considering it" the last I heard). It makes little sense - the amount being burned and the locations it's being burned in these days can't make more than the most negligable difference.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Reorte

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I thought they'd rejected such a ban for now (or maybe it was only "considering it" the last I heard). It makes little sense - the amount being burned and the locations it's being burned in these days can't make more than the most negligable difference.

The problem is the loss of 'economies' of scale'; at present, coal is imported for both domestic purposes and for use by Heritage Railways (and also Traction Engine and Stationary Engines). If the domestic component is lost, are volumes for the Heritage elements large enough to be of interest to potential suppliers?

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

The problem is the loss of 'economies' of scale'; at present, coal is imported for both domestic purposes and for use by Heritage Railways (and also Traction Engine and Stationary Engines). If the domestic component is lost, are volumes for the Heritage elements large enough to be of interest to potential suppliers?

 

That's a good point, although I still don't see what the point is in banning domestic coal either, contributions from that are negligable too, it'll just annoy people for no good reason.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

 

That's a good point, although I still don't see what the point is in banning domestic coal either, contributions from that are negligable too, it'll just annoy people for no good reason.

I thought the latter was one of government's principal functions...More to the point, it is a fairly cheap (because the Government aren't meeting the costs) way  of being seen to be 'Doing Something'

[spikey]

20 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

That's a good point, although I still don't see what the point is in banning domestic coal either, contributions from that are negligable too, it'll just annoy people for no good reason.

 

Oh but there is a good reason.  The Gubment of our glorious capitalist utopia knows that Something Must Be Done about climate change.  The proposed ban on on coal-burning is Something.  It may well be as much use as a phart in a thunderstorm, but all that matters  to them is that they can say they're Doing Something

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Oh but there is a good reason.  The Gubment of our glorious capitalist utopia knows that Something Must Be Done about climate change.  The proposed ban on on coal-burning is Something.  It may well be as much use as a phart in a thunderstorm, but all that matters  to them is that they can say they're Doing Something

 

Quite. There was merit from that perspective in replacing coal as the primary source of electricity. There's little merit in bothering about the remaining (maybe there still is about the remaining coal used in power generation, but not the rest).

[numpty]

On 27/05/2019 at 12:42, Reorte said:

 

That's a good point, although I still don't see what the point is in banning domestic coal either, contributions from that are negligable too, it'll just annoy people for no good reason.

Isn’t that what they do anyway?

[AMJ]

When I lived in Swillington there were a lot of the properties with working or retired miners and they were given a free allowance of coal.  Just wonder what happened to this post miners strike.  Of residential properties most seem to have gas fired heating these days.

 

Coal can be an issue for some railways as you need the right stuff or you'll get neighbours complaining about the smoke.

 

Some debate has been about oil firing or even running electric locos like South Tynedale do.

[kernowtim]

Obvious answer is to scale up a model to 12" to the foot, lay a 3rd rail for current collection, replace that nasty coal fired boiler with a nice electric motor & gears,  add sound effects and a small steam generator,  no one would know the difference. .. Maybe!

[doilum]

6 hours ago, AMJ said:

When I lived in Swillington there were a lot of the properties with working or retired miners and they were given a free allowance of coal.  Just wonder what happened to this post miners strike.  Of residential properties most seem to have gas fired heating these days.

 

Coal can be an issue for some railways as you need the right stuff or you'll get neighbours complaining about the smoke.

 

Some debate has been about oil firing or even running electric locos like South Tynedale do.

The coal was part of the wage. A ton / month if I recall correctly. By the 80s the clean air act had finally reached even places like Castleford and the coal allowance was given a nominal value which could be used to buy smokeless fuel or anthracite. I believe it could also be used to pay for gas. Being cash it was now taxed as income. As the pits closed the source of "real coal" disappeared and with it the thick smoke that often hung over our towns. 

[Classsix T]

So you'll have to barbeque with wood pellets or those lovely Mamod tablets* in the future then? 

 

(*wtf were they made of BTW!?) C6T.

[Steamport Southport]

54 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

So you'll have to barbeque with wood pellets or those lovely Mamod tablets* in the future then? 

 

(*wtf were they made of BTW!?) C6T.

 

There was always a joke that it was camel dung.

 

But the proper answer is hexamine, also used in solid fuel barbeques and camping stoves.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamine_fuel_tablet

 

 

Jason

[rab]

On 04/06/2019 at 12:21, kernowtim said:

Obvious answer is to scale up a model to 12" to the foot, lay a 3rd rail for current collection, replace that nasty coal fired boiler with a nice electric motor & gears,  add sound effects and a small steam generator,  no one would know the difference. .. Maybe!

Apologies if I've shared this before.

In my teens, (goodness that's 50 yrs ago), I helped a friend look after a showman's engine which was housed,  with the rest of his collection, in an old foundry.  We steamed the showmans engine most days, with a long extension chimney running out through the roof and the dynamo running the lights. One day I overheard a dad explaining to his two young boys how it worked.  "That big motor at the front (the dynamo) turns the belt which makes the big wheel (the flywheel) turn and that makes all the levers (the notion) move".

[Classsix T]

11 minutes ago, rab said:

Apologies if I've shared this before.

In my teens, (goodness that's 50 yrs ago), I helped a friend look after a showman's engine which was housed,  with the rest of his collection, in an old foundry.  We steamed the showmans engine most days, with a long extension chimney running out through the roof and the dynamo running the lights. One day I overheard a dad explaining to his two young boys how it worked.  "That big motor at the front (the dynamo) turns the belt which makes the big wheel (the flywheel) turn and that makes all the levers (the notion) move".

Hmm, similarly I've had to explain the principles of steam driven traction to a bio-medical scientist, who apparently can't grasp the concept of injection of energy begats usable force. Or whatnot. 

 

C6T. 

[Steamport Southport]

Watch on BBC Parliament now as they are debating it.

 

 

Not as interesting as I thought it would be. More going on about youngsters volunteering.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 5, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[dibber25]

On 05/06/2019 at 19:13, Classsix T said:

Hmm, similarly I've had to explain the principles of steam driven traction to a bio-medical scientist, who apparently can't grasp the concept of injection of energy begats usable force. Or whatnot. 

 

C6T. 

A friend who works on a preserved railway once told me that he watched a Dad explaining to his kids how a steam loco worked. They were watching the fireman spraying coal with the pep pipe to lay the dust. The Dad told the kids that the fireman gets the coal nice and wet so that when he puts it on the fire it steams a lot and that's what drives the engine! 

[Fat Controller]

On 04/06/2019 at 19:05, doilum said:

The coal was part of the wage. A ton / month if I recall correctly. By the 80s the clean air act had finally reached even places like Castleford and the coal allowance was given a nominal value which could be used to buy smokeless fuel or anthracite. I believe it could also be used to pay for gas. Being cash it was now taxed as income. As the pits closed the source of "real coal" disappeared and with it the thick smoke that often hung over our towns. 

We lived in a former pit village on the Tyne from 1982 to 1991. There were no longer any working miners, but about a third of the villagers were either retired miners or their widows; they recived their Concessionary Coal throughout the Miners' Strike, and afterwards, presumably either Open Cast or imported. The coal was loaded from a lorry-mounted hopper into sacks, then tipped as close to the bunker/ coal house as possible; I used to shift it for some of them; suffice to say, we didn't pay for much coal.

[rogerzilla]

In Egypt, a country not blessed with much coal or wood, they used to burn mummies in steam engines (I'm not making this up*).   There's a possible solution - we just need to create a huge embalming industry and wait 3,000 years until the "fuel" is matured nicely.

 

*the artists' pigment "Mummy Brown" was also made from ground-up mummies. 

[Zomboid]

On 04/06/2019 at 12:21, kernowtim said:

Obvious answer is to scale up a model to 12" to the foot, lay a 3rd rail for current collection, replace that nasty coal fired boiler with a nice electric motor & gears,  add sound effects and a small steam generator,  no one would know the difference. .. Maybe!

The Swiss had the solution years ago (famous picture of a tank engine with a pantograph). Boil the kettle with an electric element. You still get the steam engine part but without burning anything in it.

[AMJ]

With the talk about boiling the kettle using electricity just got me thinking...

 

How about a modern gas or electric powered steam generator at the depot and then this could be used to "fill" a fire less locomotive.  Bet that for most railways the loco would last long enough for the journey and could be refreshed upon returning to the depot.

[rab]

1 hour ago, AMJ said:

With the talk about boiling the kettle using electricity just got me thinking...

 

How about a modern gas or electric powered steam generator at the depot and then this could be used to "fill" a fire less locomotive.  Bet that for most railways the loco would last long enough for the journey and could be refreshed upon returning to the depot.

What goes around, comes around.

 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, AMJ said:

With the talk about boiling the kettle using electricity just got me thinking...

 

How about a modern gas or electric powered steam generator at the depot and then this could be used to "fill" a fire less locomotive.  Bet that for most railways the loco would last long enough for the journey and could be refreshed upon returning to the depot.

 

If that were the case, why do steam locos have firemen?

 

Just fill up the firebox with coal at the depot, and the boiler with water and, by your reasoning, the steam generated would last for the round trip.

 

Somehow, I don't think so!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[rab]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

If that were the case, why do steam locos have firemen?

 

Just fill up the firebox with coal at the depot, and the boiler with water and, by your reasoning, the steam generated would last for the round trip.

 

Somehow, I don't think so!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Ah but if you did that you might run into industrial relations problems over single manning