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Clive Mortimore

Have I missed the 17th May update.

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According to some people on this thread Dave is "dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't."

 

Those who have invested in his crowdfunded projects already know how to deal direct with Dave by e mail, telephone or letter.

 

For everyone else.................

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5 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

According to some people on this thread Dave is "dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't."

 

Those who have invested in his crowdfunded projects already know how to deal direct with Dave by e mail, telephone or letter.

 

For everyone else.................

 

Arent most of the projects still looking for investors, even more so now a few have declared their out?

 

Therefore everyone should be given information not just a “committed” few, as everyone is still a potential investor.

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7 hours ago, bingley hall said:

 

Obviously beyond the comprehension of most on this thread. 

However it then goes on to say, and I quote - 'Rest assured i am trying to get answers, results and an update together for you on the various current projects'.  

 

So by implication from that statement there was a need to establish 'answers and results'.  And that if he could establish what that has happened or is happening an update would be published.  It is perhaps not unreasonable to assume that such information would be conveyed as the 'any news' he referred to in the previous sentence and within the timescale he had stated.   The lack, thus far, of such information would imply either that there are no 'answers and results' or that his timescale of 'shortly after that date' has not been met for some other reason(s).   Perhaps rather accurately, albeit a tad cynically, summed up by this post from 'JJB 1970'?

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Patience people, patience, the poor chap is no doubt doing his best to figure out what is going on with all those projects he is managing, you can't expect a project manager to just know what is going on in projects they are managing you know.

 

If one then refers back to his April 2019 product update of all 'in progress DJM N gauge projects' it was noted that tooling of the N gauge 'King' was at the stage  of  'tooling to commence imminently' while the N gauge Class 92 was described as 'tooling imminent'.  So logically, if nothing else, there will 'shortly' be reports in respect of the progress tooling those two models - assuming he got the 'answers and results'.  Equally with November noted as the expected delivery dates for the N gauge Sharks and Mermaids there will no doubt be a report regarding production progress on them as they must be fast approaching the decoration approval stage.

 

Thus provided all is progressing as previously indicated there should be some concrete news of progress with these various N gauge projects, especially if - as suggested - he has visited China and presumably spoken to the factory (factories?) involved.

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This thread douth remind me of the words to a song

 

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind       :music_mini:

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5 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

Arent most of the projects still looking for investors, even more so now a few have declared their out?

 

Therefore everyone should be given information not just a “committed” few, as everyone is still a potential investor.

 

If I were Dave I would be advertising, advertising and then some more advertising.  As a crowdfunder I have always been concerned at the lack of advertising to bring more people on board thus improving the viability of the project.

 

It is advertising, and not updates, that get new customers.  How many people out there actually know about the DJM APT and King apart from RMwebbers and readers of the DJMwebsite?

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6 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

 

If your not paying for the trip who cares if it’s expensive or not ?

But since trips to China are a legitimate part of the product development process, then each crowdfunder must expect a tiny part of his/her investment to be spent thus.  

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24 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But since trips to China are a legitimate part of the product development process, then each crowdfunder must expect a tiny part of his/her investment to be spent thus.  

I agree ,but should all such expenditure ( and the whole of the expenditure including any profits by the organiser ) be available to said crowdfunder if they wish to review ? I have no idea and wouldn't become involved in any such scheme.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

If I were Dave I would be advertising, advertising and then some more advertising.  As a crowdfunder I have always been concerned at the lack of advertising to bring more people on board thus improving the viability of the project.

 

It is advertising, and not updates, that get new customers.  How many people out there actually know about the DJM APT and King apart from RMwebbers and readers of the DJMwebsite?

 

Well look on page 83 of the June BRM and he has a quarter page advert for the OO & N Class 92.

 

Ed Chap

 

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Perhaps he does indeed have an ad now...but bearing in mind the lead time for publications, I wonder if the ad was booked before his Mayday bout of "hara-kiri" ?

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2 hours ago, micklner said:

I agree ,but should all such expenditure ( and the whole of the expenditure including any profits by the organiser ) be available to said crowdfunder if they wish to review ? I have no idea and wouldn't become involved in any such scheme.

 

 

 

If there has indeed been a trip to China and it relates to the crowdfunded projects I would think it entirely reasonable that crowdfunders be supplied with a full breakdown of income v costs if they ask for it. Such a trip will not be cheap by any means and those funding the different projects would surely be entitled to know to what extent it was funded from each "pot" and relevance in terms of their own project? We have been told by Dave that nothing has been tooled yet although apparently some were "close"  (before the "announcement"). To date however there have been no EPs shown, so on the face of it the visit can't have had anything to do with initial oversight of production, so what was the purpose? I would say that's a fair question. If funded from Dave's own resources and not related to the projects it should be easy enough to say so and it's as much as he would need to disclose.

 

To be clear, I am not a funder of any current projects but would have been if the N Gauge J94 had reached MOQ, so even if not technically my business (and I respect that) I am still interested to know if full records have indeed been kept and if requested info gets provided to funders. I don't wish to know the details that's not my business, but if Dave comes up with the goods and provides complete clarity it may well help put some minds at rest and also encourage other people to support his projects.

 

However, the continuing silence and lack of clarification of the status of each project will become more and more damaging the longer it goes on. I would hope that Dave understands this.

 

Roy

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I have been scrutinising the various modelling magazines to see if his May 1st Announcement that was sent simultaneously to them all has been given any column inches.  Nothing found so far!  I am willing to bet Dave will be disappointed by that...

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14 hours ago, EdChap said:

 

Well look on page 83 of the June BRM and he has a quarter page advert for the OO & N Class 92.

 

Ed Chap

 

 

That's a good start.

I hope there are plenty more.

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On costs, I think this depends to some extent on whether you view a crowd funded model as a purchase or an investment. If it's just another form of selling models (albeit which offers a slightly lower price in return for accepting risk) then you could say that the costs, profits etc of the company selling the models is their business as purchasers have accepted the price offered as representing fair value. If it is an investment and the project manager is in effect working for their investors then the costs accrued and percentage taken by the project manager do become germane and I think should be disclosed in the same way pension and investment funds provide details of their fees. Personally I think the term "investor" is a complete misnomer in the context of reward crowd funding but companies offering crowd funded projects seem to like using the term in which case maybe they should treat their customers as investors and provide greater transparency.

 

If the models are delivered within budget then the whole argument of costs of business trips will be immaterial. If DJ flies business class and stays in 5* hotels, retains a personal driver and assistant for the trip and enjoys fine dining in China (wouldn't blame him for that, you can eat very well in China) and the models are delivered as agreed then whatever his costs are have been built into the pricing which customers found to be acceptable. If, however, there is a change in price because of rising costs then the matter of how he has spent the money already taken would become something that customers could rightly question.

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18 hours ago, micklner said:

I agree ,but should all such expenditure ( and the whole of the expenditure including any profits by the organiser ) be available to said crowdfunder if they wish to review ? I have no idea and wouldn't become involved in any such scheme.

 

 

This kind of question was raised - in various ways - in the thread on crowdfunding (as it is used in the UK model railway world) some time back and is probably as relevant now as it was then.  Also there is the matter of the 'not for profit'  tag being added as inevitably -  when you think it through - a crowdfunded manufacturer is going to profit from the venture because if nothing else they will have title to the tooling which has been funded by others and that may also give them various taxation benefits as illustrated in a fairly recent post in the crowdfunding thread.

 

Similarly - as DJ has, I believe, himself said - the crowdfunded 'manufacturer' isn't doing the job for nothing and will as a minimum be probably charging for time and expenses and perhaps even some sort of commission as well.  It really all comes down to two basic points that run through the crowdfunding thread - trust and transparency.   Personally, as an 'investor', I wouldn't put in any money for anything where I don't know how it is going to be spent/is being spent and where I haven't seen a business plan and full breakdown of when and how the money will be used.   You might say 'but it's just a hobby', or 'I don't mind losing the money' (really?), or 'I want to give a concern a start' but whichever -  it's always going to be about how the money will be spent. 

 

When we place pre-orders for models it also involves trust although generally, and there can be exceptions, we know the provenance of the concern with which we are placing the order and are, hopefully, very careful about checking their past achievements if a deposit is required.  Not that I like paying deposits to be honest but I can understand that trust is a two-way thing and pre-orders can turn to dust when the time to pay up arrives so a deposit provides a sort of security for the concern planning on the basis of pre-orders (and no doubt ring-fencing such monies).

 

And yes I realise this post more properly belongs in the thread about crowdfunding but as the question was raised  here i considered it pertinent to comment here.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133839-crowdfunding-or-minimising-risk/

 

Edited by The Stationmaster
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3 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

That's a good start.

I hope there are plenty more.

DJM has been running various ads in BRM for some time - I listed the most recent (as they were then) some time back in another thread but it should be noted they included 'new' projects as well and didn't concentrate on existing projects where extra funders were needed.

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14 minutes ago, Great Western said:

Is a round the world trip even required, if sure our eastern friends have high speed broadband suitable to support video conferencing or FaceTime ? 

C'mon, we're just back into stupid nit picking now (and it would be from you). Dave's not going out to China every week to catch up with all and sundry, but waving an iPad around a factory or showing a sample to a webcam is no substitute for actually being there and talking to people. Technology is great, but I would never begrudge a manufacturer visiting their overseas sites.

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21 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Technology is great, but I would never begrudge a manufacturer visiting their overseas sites.

Indeed, it's sometimes needed to show commitment and get focus on the issues at hand.

 

Besides, where exactly has it been stated by DJ that he travels first class, all expenses to China?

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2 hours ago, truffy said:

Indeed, it's sometimes needed to show commitment and get focus on the issues at hand.

 

Besides, where exactly has it been stated by DJ that he travels first class, all expenses to China?

Perhaps when he resurfaces :clapping_mini::unknw_mini:

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3 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

Is a round the world trip even required, if sure our eastern friends have high speed broadband suitable to support video conferencing or FaceTime ? 

 

But why bother with that if an all expenses paid 1st ticket to China is on offer ?

 

As somebody who has to travel regularly and would rather use said technology, I am afraid that is utter tosh. FaceTime etc. does not replace face-to-face meetings. 

 

And, do you have any evidence to support your statement regarding first class tickets? If I not I would suggest you withdraw it. 

 

Roy

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19 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

I would suggest you withdraw it.

 

Yes, the mark has been overstepped.

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9 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

...

 

If the models are delivered within budget then the whole argument of costs of business trips will be immaterial. If DJ flies business class and stays in 5* hotels, retains a personal driver and assistant for the trip and enjoys fine dining in China (wouldn't blame him for that, you can eat very well in China) and the models are delivered as agreed then whatever his costs are have been built into the pricing which customers found to be acceptable. ...

 

Indeed.  Let's face it, had the models been delivered within the original anticipated time-frame, to the standard promised, and at or close to the original suggested price, then I seriously doubt whether we would have seen one single post on these matters!

 

I have no personal 'skin in this game' - none of the projects since the O2 have been of interest to me - but it seems to me that some posters have wholly unrealistic expectations of the level of information to which they are entitled from an actively-trading business.  No-one here is a shareholder or a partner in the DJ Models business; not even participating in crowdfunding entitles us to know what he had for his dinner while on a business trip to China and how much he claimed from the business to cover it - unless of course such is provided for in the terms of the Agreement, if there is one.  I do not see questions of this nature being raised on other manufacturers' pages, even those whose products are well overdue, and they would certainly receive no answers if they were.

 

That situation may change if and when DJ Models ever goes into liquidation or administration (Note:  I am speaking entirely hypothetically).  At that point, people who have paid money for unfulfilled orders become unsecured creditors of an insolvent business, and as such are entitled to ask some questions of the liquidator as to where their money went.  Whether they will actually get answers in this level of detail remains a moot point; but what they would be highly unlikely to get is any money back, since unsecured creditors are always very near the tail-end of the legal queue for payout, and by the time those ahead of them have picked-over the carcass there is seldom anything left.

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This is just a continuation by the back door of the cyclical topic I closed a few weeks ago.

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