I can make a start

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, Antony Farrell said:

If I flip the rough plan for Haddenham so that its good yard is on the operating well side then such shunting as will occur will be easily accessible. That is an impressive looking fiddle yard too.

Can anyone confirm whether the 2 slips on the plan are single?

 

I can confirm that they are single slips.

 

PM me for any more details that you want about Haddenham but I don't think that it suits your Midland history. It is very much an early 20th century GW trackplan.

[Antony Farrell]

Perhaps I should be looking at other GWR/MR joint stations for inspiration. I can always add the GCR later.

[Chimer]

Fwiw, my fiddle yard designs usually have one road running between the first points (after any crossovers) met in each throat, to give the maximum possible length for that road, with the rest of the fan coming off the other exit from the first point.  So if, say, I've got four roads, I'd rather one takes a 7 coach loco-hauled rake with two others taking  3-5 coaches and the last one just a 2-car DMU, than four 5-coach roads. 

[Antony Farrell]

This is a draft of the layout plan. I now have a single branch line coming off the double track main line. A central operating well. I'll have to check if I can reach the fiddle yard. If not I can probably move the branch line.

 

[Antony Farrell]

Here is the plan with the branch line looped further round. I think this looks better like this.

 

[The Johnster]

I agree; that's a perfectly cromulent plan.  You can extend your fiddle yard roads on the 'outside' circuit by moving the points out to the end of the curves at each end.  The lifting section of the branch line will make the operator's life much easier, but my guess is that you'll spend a good bit of time shunting the branch terminus while trains tail chase on the main line.  

[Antony Farrell]

That's what I figured. You are right about the fiddle yard and I will likely move the points further out. I have also noticed a slightly tight curve leading onto the branch line lifting section which I have corrected. I have estimated about 14 boards for this though I don't need to get them all at once. Though I will have to decide where to start the basic construction.

For legs I was looking at adjustable steel trestle legs with the base boards attached to timbers bolted to these. I am thinking of raising the track beds onto supports so that I can have bridges and tunnels. So coming along.

[Harlequin]

Hi Anthony,

The lifting sections are quite big. How will they lift without damaging the scenery and how will the joins in the scenery be disguised?

Have you got enough storage loops in the fiddle yard and are the loops long enough?

The fiddle yard might be difficult to use if it's hidden behind a backscene.

There are places where the track gets very close to the backscene and it might be difficult to disguise that proximity.

With the station in the middle of the room, the back of the backscene will be presented to the entrance doors, which is a bit ugly and cuts you off from the room.

The branch line station is very close to the through station and the double-track circuit behind it. Can you visually separate those elements satisfactorily?

The goods yard in the through station looks difficult to shunt because it faces the main line and has a small headshunt - so you'd either have to use the main line as a headshunt through a facing connection (not good practice) or shunt a very few wagons at a time (tedious).

 

[Antony Farrell]

I think I will be able to separate the visual elements using a combination of scenery, bridges, tunnels etc. The main station which is based on those on found on the GWR/GCR joint is primarily a passenger stations. Freight tends to be reversed into the sidings area so maybe not good practice but that appears to be how the real line was run. The station sidings can be extended somewhat to increase capacity. I though I would make the two lifting sections out of a lighter material with scenery that does not stick out to far. So nothing that can snag. Perhaps farmland? Looking at the plan I can extend it slightly downward to improve the spacing between the fiddle yard and the branch line. It will also increase the run length a bit which would be a good thing.

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Antony Farrell said:

 

Freight tends to be reversed into the sidings area so maybe not good practice but that appears to be how the real line was run.

Yes, thinking about it, the yard could have trailing access to the outer circuit, of course.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Harlequin

[Antony Farrell]

Having thought this through, I have turned the branch line back to where it was originally. This looks like it would allow easier access. It also means that if I build the branch line station as a module long term I could build several stations which could be dropped in here. I will be starting shortly (just need to build the frames for the branchline station and a temporary fiddleyard). 

I am not sure whether to raise the level of the branchline or not. It does not need to clear another line but it could help hide the fiddleyard at the back. It could also help to access the portion of the fiddleyard on the right.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Antony Farrell

[Harlequin]

Sorry Antony, there’s no easy way to say this (and I have tried!) but I think that design would be difficult to build, awkward to use and unsatisfying to operate.

 

I’m only being that negative in the hope that it might save you a lot of time, money and anguish!

 

That’s just my opinion. I’m happy to be proved wrong.

[Antony Farrell]

Not a problem Harlequin, but can you be a bit more specific as to where you see the problems? I have not yet started construction so no problems yet. As far as I can see I now have reasonable access to everything. The two lifting sections only have a little bit of track on them and I have a mainline passing station (with admittedly limited freight access) a small branch terminal and a fiddleyard I am still not really happy with. I am not sure yet whether to increase the height of the branchline station. Have to think more on this.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Antony Farrell

[Harlequin]

17 hours ago, Antony Farrell said:

Not a problem Harlequin, but can you be a bit more specific as to where you see the problems? I have not yet started construction so no problems yet. As far as I can see I now have reasonable access to everything. The two lifting sections only have a little bit of track on them and I have a mainline passing station (with admittedly limited freight access) a small branch terminal and a fiddleyard I am still not really happy with. I am not sure yet whether to increase the height of the branchline station. Have to think more on this.

Here are the things that immediately come to mind:

• I don't understand what the lifting section at top left is for. It doesn't seem to give you access to much more than you can reach from the operating well. A lifting section with a gradient on it is going to be very tricky to keep aligned properly.
• The gradient to the BLT seems to be pointless. There's only about 915mm length in which a gradient could be establised (probably less) and at the steepest recommended rate of 1:35 that would give you about 25mm height difference.
• With the BLT where it is, how will you reach anything in the top right corner of the room? Maybe you've planned an access hole behind the BLT but it would be very tight and a real chore to get into.
• The branch line is quite short and so any shunting that you do in the BLT will mean the loco gets very close to the junction with the mainline - possibly even passing the junction signals and obstructing the main line.
• A train running on the inner circuit basically has nowhere to go. It can't get up the branch line and there are no crossovers in the fiddle yard to allow the loco to run round and haul the train onto the outer circuit (which would then eventually let it go up the branch). You could use the loops and crossover in the through station but they are a bit cramped and it would mean that every change of direction would take place on scene - as if the through station were the terminus for every train on the inner circuit.
• The loco release headshunt in the BLT is only long enough for an 0-4-0 shunter.
• The lifting section in the scenic area will be difficult to disguise.
• I think the facing crossover near the junction is redundant.

BTW: A reversing loop would be really useful, and you might have room to squeeze one in with a bit of thought. (Top right or bottom left, maybe?)

 

[Antony Farrell]

Thanks Harlequin, this is just the sort of information I was after. A different pair of eyes is very useful. If I increase the number of sidings do you think I would still need the fiddleyard? If not I can re-rout the branch terminus or enlarge it into a bigger station and have the continuous run pass behind it.

[DCB]

That looks like a very unsatisfactory design--  Some of the Fiddle Yard loops only hold an engine and one coach and the longest  a loco and 4 coaches.  There is room for longer trains but at the expense of the number of roads, see doodle

The terminus design looks a bit odd as well, generally the straight run in is to the platform.  The kick back sidings would be very awkward to shunt. I know you are trying to keep shunting within the station but it leaves nowhere to put outgoing wagons while positioning the incoming ones, that is a feature of full size operation in steam days, light engines didn't appear and take wagons away only to return with more and position them before returning light engine,  Incoming wagons arrived, outgoing were removed, incoming replaced them and outgoing were taken away . The GWR standardised a four point station for its last branches, a loop and two long sidings. I added a dock and a kick back for a loco shed for my suggestion.   Still not great. Rethink required? 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[Antony Farrell]

Definitely rethink. The limitation of course is the doorways and how far can I safely reach. Back to the drawing board. The mainline station is based on those on the GCR/GWR Joint but perhaps that should be revised too?

[Harlequin]

David makes good points about the BLT and the fiddle yard.

 

Rethink: Good idea.

 

Through station:

If you flipped the track plan over you could give the goods yard trailing access off the line nearest it rather than the farthest line and that would make things a bit easier. Joseph says the plan is not typically GCR but if you want to keep it I think you need to make the loops and the spurs off their ends do something useful for you, for your operations.

 

Regarding your fiddle yard:

I know lots of people hide their fiddle yards but to my thinking it needs to be accessible so that you can fiddle with stock while it's off-scene. If you don't have a turntable you need somewhere to lift and turn tender locos. And you need somwhere that you can safely move stock by hand to vary the make up of trains without the danger of knocking buildings or ripping out trees and telegraph wires.

 

Since you have a continuous double track circuit you need somewhere to perform un-prototypical moves such as reversing trains and crossing over. For example a main line train that runs through your station on the Up line can later appear with the loco at the other end (or a different loco with the same rake) heading Down. The crossing over, running round and turning wouldn't normally happen in your little station so the best palce to do it is in the fiddle yard, which represents everywhere else on the network.

 

If you can arrange the fiddle yard to be near the lifting section(s) then the lifiting section will be easier to build, safer to use and you won't have the problem of trying to disguise it in the scenery. That suggests locating the FY in the middle of the room and if you did that then you would avoid dividng the room up with a backscene. I see lots of small advantages in that arrangement: The space would be more open, there's less to get knocked, the scenery would be more protected against the walls, easier to move tools, rolling stock, cups of tea in and out of the operating well.

 

How about this basic pattern:

• Double track circuit as proposed above
• FY across the diagonal with lifting section at one end
• Through station along top wall
• Branch junction top right with branch line rising behind the station, heading along the top wall always rising, turning down to...
• High level BLT in the bottom left corner, partly over the double track circuit.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Harlequin

[Antony Farrell]

Sounds promising. Incidently the through station is almost a replica of the double track stations on the GWR/GCR Joint which I think was mainly a passengers rather than freight line hence the limited freight and awkward movement. Perhaps not the best for 'fun.'

[Harlequin]

Haddenham is nice and simple and the platform loops mean that you can have quite a lot going on - so it should make a good pattern to model.

 

I think you have Haddenham's single slip crossing the main line into the goods yard the wrong way round. It would have been used to create a trailing crossover between the main lines, not a facing connection into the goods yard.

That's why there's a separate set of points further along into the platform loop on the goods yard side of the station.

 

Those two formations could be combined in the model. Not quite prototypical but it would save some space.

 

The spurs parallel to the track should probably be made longer so that they are useful or reduced just to stubs. The longer spurs can follow the main line as it curves for a certain distance. The spur kicking back from the goods yard is especially important because it will allow you to shunt the goods yard while mainline trains are running.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Harlequin

[Aire Head]

57 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I think you have Haddenham's single slip crossing the main line into the goods yard the wrong way round. It would have been used to create a trailing crossover between the main lines, not a facing connection into the goods yard.

That's why there's a separate set of points further along into the platform loop on the goods yard side of the station.

 

Those two formations could be combined in the model. Not quite prototypical but it would save some space.

 

The spurs parallel to the track should probably be made longer so that they are useful or reduced just to stubs. They can follow the main line as it curves for a certain distance. The spur kicking back from the goods yard is especially important because it will allow you to shunt the goods yard while mainline trains are running.

 

 

 

I second this, also would say the single slip in the goods yard should really be a double in order to allow shunting in the yard separate from the mainline and to act as a catch point for protecting the mainline.

[Antony Farrell]

So basically keep Haddenham but change the single slip to a double and increase the length of its spurs allowing them to follow the mainline for a distance. Obviously more freight uses tis station.

[Aire Head]

17 minutes ago, Antony Farrell said:

So basically keep Haddenham but change the single slip to a double and increase the length of its spurs allowing them to follow the mainline for a distance. Obviously more freight uses tis station.

 

It will be better for shunting the goods yard and will allow this to happen while still having 2 trains running on the mainline.

[Harlequin]

Hi Antony,

 

I found this on the S-R-S website: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/S2807-2.pdf

 

This beautiful diagram shows the exact layout of Haddenham including the slips, how the goods yard headshunt is normally trapped and the very careful trapping and signalling of all the spurs.

 

Do you know what the spurs were used for?

 

[Antony Farrell]

The three spurs appear to serve a small goods shed. The one closest to the platform is between this shed and the platfprm. The other two are on the other side of this shed so I presume are small goods sidings.  These end short of a building labelled W.B on the plan. The plan I have is that in 'The Great Western & Great Central Joint Railway' by S C Jenkins.

 

I have grabbed a copy of the station plan you referred to as it shows the signalling diagram and catch points so very handy.