Brake Van Lamps

[jim.snowdon]

I am aware that, right up to the end of brake vans being used on at least partially-fitted and unfitted freight trains, the standard practice was for a tail lamp and two side lamps to be displayed, the side lamps showing white towards the locomotive and red to the rear. I am also aware that when such trains were in loops or adjoining running lines (eg slow lines on a four track railway) one side lamp, th eone nearest the adjoining line, would be set to show white to the rear.

 

Now, most company's brake vans had a single centre lamp iron for the tail lamp, which makes things simple, but those of the LNER had at least two, frequently three, lamp irons on the end, not including the side lamps. Can anyoone shed any light (if you excuse the pun) on the disposition of tail lamps on those vans?

 

The other related question is in regard to the use of side lamps on passenger trains. These were at one time normal, but ceased to be used, presumably with the advent of continuous braking as required by the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act, leaving just thhe single tail lamp as necessary for signalling purposes. Does anyone have any idea as to when side lamps on th erear of passenger trains fell out of use, not least as the GWR continued fitting the brackets for them to carriages and NPCS until around 1930, which is quite late.

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

Not exactly the answer to the 2 or 3 brackets on the rear of LNER vans, but more about side lamps.  They were only required on unfitted or part fitted trains, and a fully fitted train (Class C freight, later 6) only required a single tail lamp (of course it had to have vacuum pipes and a gauge in the van even if it was only 'through piped').  They could be reversed to show a red light forward, a signal to the loco crew that you wanted the train to be stopped for some reason, and loco crews should be in the habit of looking back especially on curves to ensure that their un- or part fitted train is still following them.  

 

It is quite possible that the GW was still fitting side lamp brackets to passenger brake stock as late as the 30s because nobody had told the carriage shop specifically not to, but I'd be interested to hear if there was another reason.  

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR  ceased to be required to use side lamps on passenger trains and trains composed of coaching stock w.e.f. 01 January 1934.   N.B. It is possible that they had been discontinued by Instruction prior to that date but that is the date at which Rule 120(a) was changed in the GWR Rule Book - regrettably digging out any other information would take time as the Minute Books i have covering that period are not indexed (see Note below for the period 1911 - 1917)

 

It should be noted that as things stood at 01 January 1933 (when the revised RCH Rule Book was published)  the LNER did not use side lamps on passenger trains or on freight trains with the vacuum brake operative throughout.  At the same date the Southern Railway also did not use side lamps on passenger trains and trains composed of coaching stock.  On freight trains the Southern did not use tail lamps but had two side lights - one on each side of the brake van - showing a white light forward and a red light to the rear.

 

The import of the January 1934 change to the Rule (as shown in the GWR's Rule Book) is that the standard RCH Rule changed from that date and that therefore both the GWR and (by implication because there was no previous exception listed) the LMS were using side lamps on passenger and coaching stock trains until then.  However that does not take account of any particular Instructions of a localised nature which might have existed on those Companies prior to January 1934.  

 

It should be noted that basic arrangements in respect of side lamps were not standardised across all companies/Regions until the introduction of the BR 1950 Rule Book.

 

Incidentally between 1911 and 1917 the GWR had looked at the possibility of dispensing with side lamps on passenger trains as early as 1913 in order to save money but it had finally been decided to continue using them as they were regarded as conferring additional safety and protection to the rear of the train.  The matter was again examined in 1917 with a view to reducing the use of lamp oil to help the war effort.  This time round although the idea was, once again, not welcomed a trial on various branch lines was considered but I don't know if it ever took place.

Edited May 27, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct typo - definitely lamp oil and not lap oil!!

[robertcwp]

On 26/05/2019 at 18:10, The Stationmaster said:

The GWR  ceased to be required to use side lamps on passenger trains and trains composed of coaching stock w.e.f. 01 January 1934.   N.B. It is possible that they had been discontinued by Instruction prior to that date but that is the date at which Rule 120(a) was changed in the GWR Rule Book - regrettably digging out any other information would take time as the Minute Books i have covering that period are not indexed (see Note below for the period 1911 - 1917)

 

It should be noted that as things stood at 01 January 1933 (when the revised RCH Rule Book was published)  the LNER did not use side lamps on passenger trains or on freight trains with the vacuum brake operative throughout.  At the same date the Southern Railway also did not use side lamps on passenger trains and trains composed of coaching stock.  On freight trains the Southern did not use tail lamps but had two side lights - one on each side of the brake van - showing a white light forward and a red light to the rear.

 

The import of the January 1934 change to the Rule (as shown in the GWR's Rule Book) is that the standard RCH Rule changed from that date and that therefore both the GWR and (by implication because there was no previous exception listed) the LMS were using side lamps on passenger and coaching stock trains until then.  However that does not take account of any particular Instructions of a localised nature which might have existed on those Companies prior to January 1934.  

 

It should be noted that basic arrangements in respect of side lamps were not standardised across all companies/Regions until the introduction of the BR 1950 Rule Book.

 

Incidentally between 1911 and 1917 the GWR had looked at the possibility of dispensing with side lamps on passenger trains as early as 1913 in order to save money but it had finally been decided to continue using them as they were regarded as conferring additional safety and protection to the rear of the train.  The matter was again examined in 1917 with a view to reducing the use of lamp oil to help the war effort.  This time round although the idea was, once again, not welcomed a trial on various branch lines was considered but I don't know if it ever took place.

Do you know whether the 1972 BR Rule Book differed significantly from the 1950 one regarding lamps on brake vans of goods trains that were not fully fitted, please? I have the 1972 edition but not the 1950 one.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Do you know whether the 1972 BR Rule Book differed significantly from the 1950 one regarding lamps on brake vans of goods trains that were not fully fitted, please? I have the 1972 edition but not the 1950 one.

I haven't got all the original pages of the 1972 Rule Book (or more accurately I might have them but I'm not sure where they are if I do have them  ).  But as far as side lamps on freight trains were concerned and the Instructions for changing the colours of, or removing, side lamps should have been unchanged as the earlier arrangements still applied.

 

Going by an item in the 1972 re-issue of the General Appendix I wonder if the entry in the Rule Book in respect of side lamps which could not show a white light to the rear was carried into the 1972 RB or if the comment in respect of swivelling side lamp brackets was carried over?

 

Incidentally the term 'goods train' disappeared from the Rule Book when the 1950 Rule Book came into use and the Rule Book was brought into line with the Block regulations which had ceased to use it as a general definition with the 1930s reissue.

[Wickham Green too]

October '72 Rule H.7.4 appears to be the same as 1950 Rule 121 - though without any reference either to lamps incapable of showing white to the rear or to swivelling lamp irons.

[The Johnster]

To support that statement, I was unaware of any change in the use of side lamps that arose from the introduction of the 1972 Rule Book, and I was working with part-fitted trains in brake vans on a regular basis at the time.  Brake vans carried a tail lamp and two side lamps, the side lamps showing white lights to the front and rear, but having red shades so that they were able to show red lights to the rear.  Side lamps had the bracket fitting on each side so that they were a standard design that could go on either side of the van, and be reversed if necessary (more later).

 

Under normal circumstances at night, during fog or falling snow, or in specified tunnels, the van displayed 3 red lights to the rear and a white light on each side facing forward.  This was so that loco crew could look out either side of the loco and affirm that the train was following the loco in good order.  If one was 'put inside' a loop or refuge siding, or was on a reception or departure road adjacent to a running line, the red removable slide shade was removed from the side lamp on that side of the van, so that the display was of 2 red lights and a white, in a v shape with the white closest to the running line.  This was also the case on 'slow' or 'relief' running lines, and applied when there was a running line in the opposite direction in between the road the van was on and the main running line in the same direction, as for example between Paddington and Didcot. 

 

The purpose of reversing the lamps was twofold.  If you were propelling the van in the right direction along a running line, the two side lamps showed a white light 'forward' in the direction of travel, and the tail lamp was taken in as the train's tail lamp became the one at the rear of the propelling locomotive, which switched off it's own headcode or marker front lights.  If you wanted to attract the traincrew's attention to a problem, this could be done by reversing the side lamps to show a red light forward; signalmen and others would also be able to spot this and you wouldn't go far before the train was stopped.

 

The white light displayed to the rear on slow or relief lines and in loops etc was very reassuring to drivers of overtaking trains, particularly where there was the shifting perspective of curvature in  the mix.  Coming around a bend at speed or from beneath a bridge and seeing 3 red lights in front of you because the guard had dozed off and not removed the shade was a bit (!) disconcerting and the guard would hear about if from the driver next time he encountered him.

[robertcwp]

Thanks for the replies. Also useful to know when goods became freight. The 1947 LNER Rule Book still refers to goods.

 

This is the relevant page from the 1972 rule book about side lamps: 

 

[The Stationmaster]

So the bit which no longer appeared was - as I suspected - the 'Note' to Rule 121 which referred to lamps unable to show white lights to the rear.  

 

The reference to Mixed Trains from Rule 121 is also no longer there but was no doubt moved elswhere because Mixed Trains were still running in 1972 although they might have been shifted to a Sectional Appendix as they were no longer running on all Regions by then.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

..... Mixed Trains were still running in 1972 although they might have been shifted to a Sectional Appendix as they were no longer running on all Regions by then.

Certainly as late as '84 in Scotland - though I seem to recall this was 'new' at the time.

 

( This photo might qualify for the Prototype for Everything thread.)

 

[2750Papyrus]

I am assembling an old McGowan models' kit of a GN brake van, and am tempted to fit a Train-Tech rear light.  However, this could call attention to the absence of working red and white lights on the sides.  Has anybody fitted such lights to their brake vans?

[Wickham Green too]

If your great Northern van still has fixed side lamps it should be possible do - unlike other vans which relied on lamps on the corner pillars !

[jim.snowdon]

On 24/11/2020 at 19:46, Wickham Green too said:

Certainly as late as '84 in Scotland - though I seem to recall this was 'new' at the time.

 

( This photo might qualify for the Prototype for Everything thread.)

 

Given that all of the stock is air braked, is that really a mixed train? My understanding of the term was more that it applied to trains that conveyed non-fitted freight stock in rear of the passenger stock, with a goods brake van bringing up the rear.

 

[Wickham Green too]

"A mixed train or mixed consist is a train that contains both passenger and freight cars or wagons." .................. I guess Wikipedia isn't alone in using that definition !!?!  

[LMS2968]

Rule 16: "Except where otherwise provided, the -

   Term                     Includes

Passenger train   Mixed train, i.e. train conveying passengers and goods."

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by LMS2968
Posted before I'd finished typing!

[The Johnster]

As I understand it, a 'mixed train' in UK parlance means a train with a passenger/NPCCS portion which might include XP rated goods stock coupled to the locomotive and on which the automatic vacuum or air brake is operational and proven to be so by the carrying out of a brake continuity test when the loco is coupled to it and at any other time that the brake pipe continuity has been broken and restored, and with a passenger guard riding in a passenger brake compartment, which then to the rear of this portion carries a number of goods wagons, not necessarily fitted or XP branded, including minerals, in an unfitted portion and with a goods brake van in which a goods guard is riding, displaying the correct lights to the rear.  It will be headcoded as 'ordinary passenger, Class B (later Class 2).  These trains were authorised in certain locations by the authority of the relevant Sectional Appendix, and were not generally used.  The maximum speed is 45mph or less if any vehicle is so restricted.

 

This is different from a train carrying 'tail traffic' or which has XP rated stock marshalled between the locomotive and the passenger portion.  All goods vehicles on such a train must be XP rated, which means they are vacuum braked in any case, and brake continuity tests carried out in the same way as on any other train fully or partly fitted with vacuum brakes.  It carries a single tail lamp to the rear, and requirese only one guard, in the passenger brake compartment.  It can run under Class A Express Passenger headcode as well as as 'Ordinary Passenger' headcode, and can run more or less anywhere that the traffic requires it to subject to the loadings and timings required; no special instruction is needed.  Tail traffic of this sort may be carried behind diesel or electric multiple units.  Speed is restricted to that of the slowest vehicle.

 

The train in the photograph does not comply with either of these descriptions, and I assume is running under special local instructionn if the freight wagon is not 'XP' rated,

[Wickham Green too]

I'll stick with the Rule 16 definition - in 1933 & 1950 Rule Books ( presumably no longer thought necessary in 1972 ).

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Given that all of the stock is air braked, is that really a mixed train? My understanding of the term was more that it applied to trains that conveyed non-fitted freight stock in rear of the passenger stock, with a goods brake van bringing up the rear.

 

There were some special regulations introduced in Scotland for passenger trains conveying Freightliner vehicles and the term 'mixed train' was. I believe, used when mixed braking systems and use of both passenger and freight vehicles in the one train were involved (which I understand the  special regulations made some provision for).  However in the proper sense of the legal term 'Mixed Train' (not the capitalisation in this instance) that is clearly not such a train and is actually no more than a passenger train conveying tail traffic formed between teh coaching stock and the loco.

 

'The Johnster' post above is a tad misleading.  Mixed Trains were legally defined (the legal definition is that they were ... 'trains for the conveyance of goods and passengers in which the goods wagons are not required to be have continuous brakes' ... ) and were a totally separate type of train which were only permitted to run where authorised in the Working Timetable (WTT) with a limitation on their maximum speed, the mileage they were allowed to run between stops,  and on the number of times where they might be run on a particular section of route and on the percentage of trains they could comprise of on that section of line.  There numbers were also limited by thh average speed of all trains on a particular section of route 

 

So basically they consisted of a passenger carrying train, which might or might not also include NPCCS vehicles,  with freight stock - virtually all types thereof - which had to be marshalled at the rear of the passenger part of the train with a freight brakevan(s) on the rear of them (the number of freight brakevans varying according to the total tonnage of freight vehicles formed in the train).  The Mixed Train Regulations were deleted from BR operating Instructions in 1971.  The last Mixed Train I saw, and travelled on, was at easter 1969 and it conveyed three wagons includinga loaded 45T tank car plus the required freight brake van all properly marshalled behind the passenger coaches.  Incidentally one or two Light railways had the habit of (illegally) n marshalling the passenger section behind the freight vehicles in order to simplify shunting at intermediate stations.

 

As 'The Johnster' noted passenger trains were permitted to convey vacuum braked freight vehicles as tail traffic and following its introduction in the 1930s such vehicles  these had to carry the 'XP' marking and be compliant with various things such as having a continuous brake, wheelbase of 10ft or greater, particular type of buffers,and so on.  However over the years, particularly during the 1960s, numerous restrictions were allied to various XP vehicles, many passenger trains were prohibited from conveying four wheel vehicles or conveying four wheel vehicles of less than a particular wheelbase even if the were marked XP.

 

Finally a point regarding the Rule Book  and the item in the glossary in Rule 16 of the 1950 Rule Book which says the following  -  Starting with 'Except where provided otherwise' it goes on to say  'Passenger train -includes -  Mixed train, i.e. a train conveying passengers and goods.'    Firstly of course what the glossary really says in the basic context is that the term 'Passenger train' includes a 'Mixed Trains' and that is absolutely correct because in operational safety  terms they are both treated as passenger trains for the simple reason that they convey passengers thus there is a legal requirement to treat them in that manner.  

 

But as ever there is a need here to understand the hierarchy of railway safety and operating documentation - the Rule Book was only the basic document and it was amplified and/or qualified by the General Appendix.    Which, in its turn, takes us to the 'except where provided otherwise'  and very clearly sets out the Regulations for the operation of Mixed Trains and the Instructions for tail traffic.  Hence the Rule Book glossary term is of little use in defining particular types of trains which can convey passengers without reference to the General Appendix.   And that is why I always capitalise the words 'Mixed Trains' because that goes to the Regulation which is the critical when talking about such trains.  The capital 'M' in  Rule 16 was no more than correct punctuation although I would freely acknowledge the glossary term is of itself distinctly ambiguous (but it is not alone in that in many versions of the Rule Book)

[Wickham Green too]

General Appendix ( 1960 ) 16.B.1 : ""Mixed" trains for the conveyance of freight and passengers .... may be run ...." this does not require the freight wagons to have continuous brakes - but does not preclude them from being so fitted. 

 

( Yes, sub paragraph (b) does specifically state that "freight wagons shall be conveyed behind the passenger vehicles with brake van ... " but this was written in the days when freight wagons had a wheelbase of ( generally ) 10' many still didn't have through brakes and brake vans were readily available - things had moved on by 1984. )

 

Another photo of this mixed working appears on https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/32/743/ .... I have a sneaking suspicion the flat is air-braked and the coaches vacuum - just to throw another issue into the melange !

[jim.snowdon]

19 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Another photo of this mixed working appears on https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/32/743/ .... I have a sneaking suspicion the flat is air-braked and the coaches vacuum - just to throw another issue into the melange !

I'm not aware of any Freightliner flats being fitted with through vacuum pipes, and by 1984 it is more than likely that the coaches were at least dual braked.

 

[rodent279]

15 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

I'm not aware of any Freightliner flats being fitted with through vacuum pipes, and by 1984 it is more than likely that the coaches were at least dual braked.

 

The coaching stock looks like mk2's, so almost certainly dual braked.

[kevinlms]

19 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

I'm not aware of any Freightliner flats being fitted with through vacuum pipes, and by 1984 it is more than likely that the coaches were at least dual braked.

 

Weren't the Class 33's on the Southern Region, flexible enough to have the loco in the middle and have vacuum stock at one end and air brake at the other? Or am I perpetuating a myth?

[Tumut]

Hello All,

re Mixed Trains which is a train consisting of passenger and goods vehicles ( NPCC vehicles are still considered as Passenger vehicles, think GUVs for instance ), in steam days in Britain a Mixed Train would consist of the locomotive, passenger vehicles, goods vehicles & Brake van; and with goods vehicles to the rear due to the likelihood that the goods vehicles were non fitted.

However, after all goods vehicles became fully fitted ( usually air braked only ) then the formation would be locomotive, goods vehicles, passenger vehicles, this formation would allow for the locomotive to place the goods vehicles upon arrival. It also has the advantage that the noisy locomotive is further separated from the leading passenger vehicle !

Australian Mixed Trains, being all air braked were assembled like the Scotland 1984 photo above.

Regards, Tumut.

[micknich2003]

The GSRly dispensed with side lights on passenger trains as early as 1907, see attached..

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

General Appendix ( 1960 ) 16.B.1 : ""Mixed" trains for the conveyance of freight and passengers .... may be run ...." this does not require the freight wagons to have continuous brakes - but does not preclude them from being so fitted. 

Actually  it is not part of numbered item 16 in the General Regulations for Working the Vacuum Brake, because, following a new heading, it is part of the 'Additional Instructions' with respect to Continuous Brakes - logically so because it also applies to trainms with other continuous brake systems and not just those fitted with vacuum brakes.

 

And note that it says '... the freight wagons are not required to have continuous brakes ...'  in other words it was perfectly permissible to run a fitted wagon with the automatic brakes not in use. (as was indeed the case on the Mixed Train on which I travlled because there was an unfitted wagon between the passenger stock and the fitted wagon.  And it does in any event go on to say that '...  the passenger vehicles shall be provided with continuous brakes worked from the locomotive.'    i.e. there was no requirement to have operative continuous brakes on any part of the freight portion formed behind the passenger vehicles thus allowing the freight vehicles to be marshalled according to normal freight marshalling and traffic requirements (and not to meet any Brake Regulations).

20 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

( Yes, sub paragraph (b) does specifically state that "freight wagons shall be conveyed behind the passenger vehicles with brake van ... " but this was written in the days when freight wagons had a wheelbase of ( generally ) 10' many still didn't have through brakes and brake vans were readily available - things had moved on by 1984. )

The wheelbase4 was irrelevant and we are talking abiout the Mixed Train regulations and not 1984 by when totally new and different instructions had been issued (possibly only in Scotland?) in respect of the marshalling of Freightliner vehicles on passenger trains,  As I noted above the Mixed Train Regulations were withdrawn in 1971.

20 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

Another photo of this mixed working appears on https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/32/743/ .... I have a sneaking suspicion the flat is air-braked and the coaches vacuum - just to throw another issue into the melange !

In that latter respect I believe that you are probably correct.  I can only recall anything about this arrangement from secondary sources and I think that part of the reason for doing it was to cater for Freightliner vehicles being attached to passenger trains with a different braking system.  I've an idea it might well have received a mention in a contemporaneous edition of 'Modern Railways' and as far as I know it was only ever done in Scotland (and the relevant instructions might only have been issued in Scotland - albeit only a quick search but I can't find any reference to it in the 1981 reissue of the General appendix or any amendments to it issued up to and including 1986.