Loco lubrication OO gauge

[mikesndbs]

Hi all

 

I have been a dedicated user of Hob-E-Lube oils and greases from Woodland Scenics for many years now.

I like the precision applicators, the guarantees of being plastic safe and of course the really good lubrication.

 

However I do notice that well serviced locos go dry in say 6 months or so without use.

 

There are no gummed up traces, so where does the oil go I wonder?

 

And are there any longer lasting lubes I might consider?

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

[40034_Nick]

 

For the cogs inside..

Edited May 27, 2019 by 40034_Nick

[mikesndbs]

really?

 

[40034_Nick]

yes..

[cravensdmufan]

I've been using Labelle products for a while now - quite expenive (USA made) but it lasts and lasts. 

 

https://labelle-lubricants.com/model-train-lubes/

 

Once lubricated my locos have never needed doing again, so I confirm it doesn't dry out.  You only need a tiny bit.

 

I use 102 light oil for general lubrication, 106 grease with PTFE on worm drives/cogs, and 134 PTFE micro fine dry powder which is excellent for keeping coupling cams free (treating my Hornby diesel cams just once has done the job).

 

I bought mine from https://www.hamodels.net/labelle-lubes.html

 

No connection with either manufacturer or supplier - just happy with the products.

Edited May 27, 2019 by cravensdmufan
Change of wording for clarity

[mikesndbs]

17 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

I've been using Labelle products for a while now - quite expenive (USA made) but it lasts and lasts. 

 

https://labelle-lubricants.com/model-train-lubes/

 

Once lubricated my locos have never needed doing again, so I confirm it doesn't dry out.  You only need a tiny bit.

 

I use 102 light oil for general lubrication, 106 grease with PTFE on worm drives/cogs, and 134 PTFE micro fine dry powder which is excellent for keeping coupling cams free (treating my Hornby diesel cams just once has done the job).

 

I bought mine from https://www.hamodels.net/labelle-lubes.html

 

No connection with either manufacturer or supplier - just happy with the products.

 

 

Sounds really good, can you confirm if they are plastic safe?

[cravensdmufan]

1 minute ago, mikesndbs said:

 

 

Sounds really good, can you confirm if they are plastic safe?

Most definitely plastic safe Mike (see description in manufacturers link that I included).

 

[mikesndbs]

Ordered thanks mate

[The Johnster]

At the risk of being contentious, I don't like grease lubricants for my drive trains.  They attract dirt and clog things up, some sooner and some later but they all do it eventually.  And they seize up if stored for any length of time, not that this is an issue for my at the moment but it has been in the past.  I use Expo Fine Grade Oil No: 74326, applied with a hypodermic type syringe, for all my lubrication.  This does dry out about every 6 months, so occasional checks to see how it's doing are made and the loco cleaned and re-lubed if necessary, so this is no good if you want a 'do it once and forget about it for ever' solution, but I really couldn't say what is...

 

Brand new locos or second hand ones that still have the grease applied when they were assembled in the factory have it cleaned out with rattlecan switch cleaner, the spray driving most of it off the model.  Matters are then left overnight while the switch cleaner evaporates off, and fresh lube as described above is applied.  The hypo is brilliant for limiting the spread of lube; you want the bare minimum necessary to do the job.  

 

I have had my Expo lube for about 2 years, and have used about an eighth of it, which suggests it will last me another 14 or 15 years.   Operation takes place most days on my layout, though 'mileage' is not high and speeds are low due to the BLT nature of the track plan.  Locos are taken out of service about every 10 working days for boiler washouts, and the timetable means that locos are in service for about 6 months of real time, about when they need a looking at.  A thorough cleaning session is indulged in, and lube applied if it is needed.  For some reason, Hornby locos seem to need less lubrication than Bachmann; I have absolutely no idea why!  All are steam outline and drive through worm and cog gearing with brass or nylon worms and nylon cogs.

[mikesndbs]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

At the risk of being contentious, I don't like grease lubricants for my drive trains.  They attract dirt and clog things up, some sooner and some later but they all do it eventually.  And they seize up if stored for any length of time, not that this is an issue for my at the moment but it has been in the past.  I use Expo Fine Grade Oil No: 74326, applied with a hypodermic type syringe, for all my lubrication.  This does dry out about every 6 months, so occasional checks to see how it's doing are made and the loco cleaned and re-lubed if necessary, so this is no good if you want a 'do it once and forget about it for ever' solution, but I really couldn't say what is...

 

Brand new locos or second hand ones that still have the grease applied when they were assembled in the factory have it cleaned out with rattlecan switch cleaner, the spray driving most of it off the model.  Matters are then left overnight while the switch cleaner evaporates off, and fresh lube as described above is applied.  The hypo is brilliant for limiting the spread of lube; you want the bare minimum necessary to do the job.  

 

I have had my Expo lube for about 2 years, and have used about an eighth of it, which suggests it will last me another 14 or 15 years.   Operation takes place most days on my layout, though 'mileage' is not high and speeds are low due to the BLT nature of the track plan.  Locos are taken out of service about every 10 working days for boiler washouts, and the timetable means that locos are in service for about 6 months of real time, about when they need a looking at.  A thorough cleaning session is indulged in, and lube applied if it is needed.  For some reason, Hornby locos seem to need less lubrication than Bachmann; I have absolutely no idea why!  All are steam outline and drive through worm and cog gearing with brass or nylon worms and nylon cogs.

 

Everyone has an opinion and yours is just as valid!

 

Do we have any idea why oil dries out? LOL

[The Johnster]

Well, I don't but I'm sure somebody with the necessary chemical knowledge to explain it will be along shortly to explain things.  To some extent it is used up, of course, small amounts of it being transferred off the lubricated surface and lost, but some presumably evaporates over time as well.  The reason the grease is used when new models are assembled is, I am told, because it will not contaminate other areas and is not flammable, both considerations to be taken into account for insurance purposes when the models are packed and shipped.

 

I recall my first ever Triang Black Princess train set, which came with a small glass bottle, about ½" high, of Shell 'High Grade Whale Liver Machine Oil', with a pin attached to the lid to aid application; I was very impressed with this and thought that I was in the presence of real precision engineering, not a description I would now apply to a Black Princess...

[Il Grifone]

Be careful with switch cleaner, Some are definitely not plastic safe and some leave a nasty deposit.... I used to swear by the Philips product, but have not seen it available for years.

 

The life of lubricants depends on their chemical composition. Solvents do tend to evaporate. Anyone else remember when cars required regreasing every 1000 miles?

 

Avoid WD40 like the plague. it is not a lubricant  (Water Dispersant formula 40).

[Hroth]

15 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Anyone else remember when cars required regreasing every 1000 miles?

To be fair, as well as primitive greases, there was also the issue of equally primitive seals. A secondary function of the grease was to carry dirt and grit away from relatively delicate white-metalled bearing surfaces and ball races.

 

I've seen car greasing charts that indicate 500 mile regreasing intervals for some parts.

[Thane of Fife]

I think that locos are often over-lubricated. I have bought four Bachmann split chassis locos, which were not good runners, cheaply from an auction site.

 

After stripping down, cleaning the muffs, and lightly oiling with thin oil, they run very well with good haulage properties.

 

Malcolm

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

 

14 hours ago, 40034_Nick said:

 

For the cogs inside..

Well, good luck. A late friend used Castrol LM (lithium grease)* on his loco's internals over many years. One day he came to me with a wobbly driving wheels problem. The plastic centres of the driving wheels had all the physical integrity of chewing gum. On investigation of the fleet this was more or less true of all his RTR models. His kit built loco mechs were all fine, and it was on these that he had first used this grease for many years with no trouble, and thus considered it 'fully tested' for model railway application. Unfortunately he had not considered the very different materials in RTR mechanisms compared to those built from kit components.

 

*I have no idea how similar the grease formulation you use may be to Castrol LM. But I still feel it worth this cautionary note for any others who may read this.

 

 

16 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

There are no gummed up traces, so where does the oil go I wonder?

It evaporates, as liquids do.

[The Johnster]

I'd agree that overzealous lubrication is a common problem.  You can see how it happens; a loco runs stiffly because the lubrication is filthy and has gummed up the works, but the owner doesn't realise this and applies more lube, making the problem worse.  The worse the loco runs, the more lube he/she applies until either the light dawns or the model goes on 'Bay,

 

2 years ago I bought a second hand Hornby 2721 from my local model shop.  The asking price was reasonable and the model looked to be in good condition, but when the proprietor put it on the test track (this shop won't let anything out the door without testing it in your presence), it ran like a 3 legged dog with legs from 3 different dogs grafted on.  He refused to sell it to me and disappeared into the back room to see if he had another one.  He didn't, and I offered him a small amount of money to take the model 'as seen', which he snatched out of my hand with enough enthusiasm to make me think I should have offered less...

 

My theory was that it did run, albeit very badly, despite not being obviously dirty, and that whatever was wrong with would be within my ability to sort out.  Got it home, got the top off, and sure enough, the mech was gunged nearly solid with grease and crud that it had picked up, swimming in a sort of thick mud of added oil.  A complete strip down, cleaning, and re-lube had the loco running a lot better.  A pickup issue that took a bit longer to identify and a problem with the springs bearing on the real axle kept it from really acceptable levels of slow running for a while, but this cheap loco has been worked up a bit and is now a useful member of the fleet; little was wrong with it beyond a lack of understanding of the principle of regular cleaning and minimal lubrication.

 

Perhaps I've been lucky with my rattlecan switch cleaner.  I formerly used Maplin's, but these are no longer available of course and my current rattlecan came from the electronics bits and pieces stall at Cardiff Indoor Market, and is not of any particular provenance, but I've had no trouble with it!

 

Not yet, anyway...

[Il Grifone]

I read somewhere that the mystery of wagon bearings going dry was solved when they found out that crows had learnt how to open the axlebox lids and were eating the grease!

 

(Apocryphal?)

 

There used to be two types of switch cleaner. One was just a cleaner and left things dry. There should be no problem with this.  The other was also a lubricant and left a greasy film - to avoid!

Edited May 29, 2019 by Il Grifone

[tarifa]

Silicon grease is safe to use on plastics and it does not clog up the gears due to the silicon.  Use it sparingly.

[Graham Radish]

Grease wins, oil goes everywhere no matter how careful you are, it ends up all over the pickups.

[Graham Radish]

On 28/05/2019 at 08:18, Il Grifone said:

Be careful with switch cleaner, Some are definitely not plastic safe and some leave a nasty deposit.... I used to swear by the Philips product, but have not seen it available for years.

 

The life of lubricants depends on their chemical composition. Solvents do tend to evaporate. Anyone else remember when cars required regreasing every 1000 miles?

 

Avoid WD40 like the plague. it is not a lubricant  (Water Dispersant formula 40).

 

Yup, wd40 will strip oil not lubricate.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

 

Yup, wd40 will strip oil not lubricate.

 

Correct. It's for things like cleaning hinges, squeaky wheels and the like.

 

You are supposed to lubricate it properly afterwards. Most people don't and then wonder why they haven't cured the problem.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I read somewhere that the mystery of wagon bearings going dry was solved when they found out that crows had learnt how to open the axlebox lids and were eating the grease!

 

(Apocryphal?)

 

There used to be two types of switch cleaner. One was just a cleaner and left things dry. There should be no problem with this.  The other was also a lubricant and left a greasy film - to avoid!

At Cwmbargoed, the local sheep had learned this trick and wound eat the grease, the train coming to a stand about half a mile down the valley.  They flipped the lids open with their noses.  

[royaloak]

17 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

 

Yup, wd40 will strip oil not lubricate.

As my son found out when his bike chain snapped on him, when I asked if he lubricated it at all he replied 'oh yeah every week', I then asked what he used, yep good old WD40, the new one gets lubed weekly with 20/50 oil and has already lasted 3 times longer than the original chain.

Edited May 30, 2019 by royaloak

[mkrob]

There's a video about Labelle lubes. The info on model railways is about 2.40 in.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by mkrob

[RosiesBoss]

Lubrication and Model Trains

 

“What should I use to oil my favourite locos and rolling stock?”

 

This is a recurring question, with a variety of answers and opinions. The following thoughts reflect lessons and experience including over 20 years as a professional chemist in the NSWGR labs, looking at such materials as paints, alloys, fuels, lubricants, cleaning chemicals, and occupational health issues associated with the use of chemicals, fumes and dusts. They also include over 60 years of railway modelling and maintenance. However, the following paragraphs are just one man’s musings: they are not the last words on the subject, by any means.

 

Background

First, one has to understand what lubricants do:

·         They separate moving parts to minimise wear

·         They provide a slippery interface between moving parts to minimise friction and facilitate movement.

·         Some lubricants also have anti-oxidising agents to minimise corrosion and/or conserve mechanisms during storage

 

Historically, lubricants were based on natural oils and greases, such as lard, tallow and vegetable oils. These had several disadvantages:

·         They oxidise easily, forming sticky gums

·         They become less viscous (ie, they become thinner) when heated, permitting them to escape from bearings and so allowing metal-to-metal contact, resulting in seizure or excessive wear

 

From the late 19th century, most lubricants have been based on mineral oils and (later) their synthetic derivatives. In automotive oils, they also contain additives which:

·         Resist oxidation

·         Keep contaminant particles in suspension, to eliminate blockages of oil passages

·         Maintain viscosity (“thickness”) over a wide range of operating temperatures, so the oils are not too thick when cold or too thin when hot

·         May contain special additives for extreme pressure applications (such as the odorous sulphur compounds in gearbox and differential oils)

 

Some of these additives and the base oils may be incompatible with materials found in model trains.

 

Modern industrial and automotive greases typically contain a mineral oil mixed with a water-insoluble soap, such as those based on lithium. It is unlikely that the mineral oil component is “plastic friendly”.

 

Materials in Model Trains

Model train locos and rolling stock make use of a wide variety of materials, which include:

·         Brass

·         Copper

·         Bronze

·         Zinc-based die-cast alloys

·         Aluminium

·         Lead-based white metals

·         Pewter

·         Steel

·         Polystyrene

·         ABS

·         Polypropylene

·         Rubber

·         Nylon

·         Card

·         Modellers’ timbers

·         Alkyd resin enamel paints

·         Acrylic paints

 

Not all of the above are compatible with all lubricants (or the potential cleaners that may be used before re-oiling our models).

 

For example, ethanol (“methylated spirit”) will attack acrylic paints. “EP” grade lubricating oils, although great for car gearboxes, will attack bronze or brass gears, causing them to wear out rapidly. Acetone will attack cyanoacrylate (“super glue”) adhesives. Most white spirit solvents, including “mineral turpentine” will attack polystyrene and ABS, due to their aromatic hydrocarbon content.

 

In the same way, many common lubricants, such as WD40 and sewing machine oils, will degrade some components of our models. I had the sad experience of writing off two NWSL gearboxes due to the use of the wrong lubricants. Similarly, the plastic axle centres of some Mainline loco axles embrittled, cracked and fell apart after using the wrong oils. Expensive lessons!

 

Isopropyl alcohol can be used as a general purpose cleaner. It is relatively safe to use, with minimal health issues, but is still flammable, with a flash point of just 13 degrees C. It should be used with plenty of ventilation. It is relatively benign to most plastics, but may affect some paint finishes. Applied with a syringe fitted with a 25 gauge needle, it can even flush out the driving wheel bearings of Hornby live steamers.

 

Lubricating Tips

1.       Don’t over-oil. Excess oil may contaminate the rails and degrade traction tyres, cause poor electrical conductivity and cause your locos to slip.

2.       Don’t over-oil. Excess oil will attract dirt and dust, which will build up to a thick sludge that will cause bearings to seize.

3.       Don’t over-oil. Excess oil will be thrown off rapidly rotating parts to contaminate areas that should remain clean. In some cases such oils may cause embrittlement of plastics and their eventual collapse.

4.       Use oil that is fit for purpose. For example, Hornby steam cylinder oil is too thick for use elsewhere. Fleischmann wagon bearing oil is too thin for use in Hornby live steam cylinders.

 

Suitable Lubricants

My experience has led me to use the following:

·         Fleischmann 6599 oil: coach, wagon and loco axle and armature bearings

·         Labelle 102 gear oil: metal locomotive gears and gearboxes

·         Hob-E-Lube HL657 white grease: plastic/nylon gears

·         Hornby steam cylinder oil: Steam passages of Hornby live steamers

 

Servicing tips

1.       Test your models periodically to verify that they still roll freely. Those that don’t will be straining your locos and causing avoidable damage, especially to their motors.

2.       Vehicles that show resistance to free rolling should be inspected. Any sludge in the bearings should be cleaned with isopropyl alcohol, while ensuring that no excess solvent goes where it is not wanted. Fine cotton buds may prove useful here, particularly to dry away all solvent when cleaning is complete. Look out also for wads of hairy sludge that may need to be removed with tweezers.

3.       Use a fine applicator to place just enough oil to where it is needed. The Fleischmann oil has one supplied with it. Such applicators can be easily made from a cork and an old sewing needle.

4.       Check that the model is rolling freely again. If not, check for other issues, such as misaligned axles, tight bearings, foreign matter, etc.

 

I look forward to reading the thoughts and suggestions of other modellers.

Regards,

Rob

Edited May 30, 2019 by RosiesBoss
Added "armature bearings"