LBSCR D1 0-4-2T into BR

[SR71]

I have stumbled into building a wills LBSCR D1 tank. I'm ex-LMS - BR modeller generally but one came up on eBay and I liked the look of it. I did some Googling and found that this class were named after a lot of places I have lived, worked, or spent my spare time in the last 30 years and so I was fated into building one. I would have liked to produce 2247 Arlington but according to Wikipedia (I know, I won't be betting the house on anything found there) it was withdrawn in 1938 so no good. This leaves me with my next preferred option of 2299 Wimbledon withdrawn in 1948. My version would have been retained in service for a bit longer and so would be in very tired Southern livery. This leads me to my question. Assuming that it had a major overhaul some time just after WW2 what livery would it be in? I would assume unlined Black with 'sunshine' lettering?

 

I have only found one identifiable picture of a D1 post war on Flickr (it insists on embedding the image however I paste the link - Credit to Charlie Verrall - hopefully as he has his permissions set this way he doesn't mind the picture appearing here) of 2252 Buckhurst. Does anyone have any references they recommend looking at (particularly late pictures of 2299)? I have South Coast Railways Brighton to Worthing & Worthing to Chichester and Brighton Line Album by R.C.Riley but these focus on the interwar years and an astonishing (to me) number of pre-grouping pictures.

 Wikipedia page for interest;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LB%26SCR_D1_class_locomotives

[Steamysandy]

I got into doing a piece for Railway World many years ago and I found a photo of 2605 in Southern livery at Ayr ( yes- Scotland) taken during the war.It had Sunshine lettering and I surmised it would be black.

A reader wrote in saying it was actually malachite and was a bright little bit of colour.

Incidentally there was a story that a Jubilee got into difficulty on a Stranraer train and the D1 piloted it.

A number of D1 were transferred to the LM S  during the war mainly being used in Scotland and I believe the last train on the Lybster branch from Wick which closed in 1944 was hauled by one of these locos.

As I recall all but one ( scrapped at Derby after an accident) were returned to the Southern and were put into store before eventual scrapping.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Steamysandy

[Wickham Green]

13 hours ago, Steamysandy said:

I got into doing a piece for Railway World many years ago and I found a photo of 2605 in Southern livery at Ayr ( yes- Scotland) taken during the war.It had Sunshine lettering and I surmised it would be black.

A reader wrote in saying it was actually malachite and was a bright little bit of colour.

Incidentally there was a story that a Jubilee got into difficulty on a Stranraer train and the D1 piloted it.

A number of D1 were transferred to the LM S  during the war mainly being used in Scotland and I believe the last train on the Lybster branch from Wick which closed in 1944 was hauled by one of these locos.

As I recall all but one ( scrapped at Derby after an accident) were returned to the Southern and were put into store before eventual scrapping.

I don't think any D1s ever received malachite green - but there were a number of combinations of Bulleid lettering on Maunsell green, with - or without - lining, applied to different locos before the all pervasive black came in. ( Details in https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-and-southern-150201.html )

[Thane of Fife]

Twenty D1s survived nationalisation. 

 

The last one was withdrawn in 1950 (32359) from Dover

 

Thane of Fife

[pete_mcfarlane]

13 hours ago, Steamysandy said:

I got into doing a piece for Railway World many years ago and I found a photo of 2605 in Southern livery at Ayr ( yes- Scotland) taken during the war.

 

These locos worked local trains along the South coast, on lines which temporarily lost their passenger services during WW2, so were surplus to requirements - hence the loan to the LMS. 

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

These locos worked local trains along the South coast, on lines which temporarily lost their passenger services during WW2, so were surplus to requirements - hence the loan to the LMS. 

 

I would have thought it was the 1932, 1935 and 1938 electrification schemes (which cumulatively stretched from Hastings to Portsmouth) that would have made the locos surplus to requirements.

 

Local trains were most definitely NOT withdrawn along the south coast during WW2  - with the possible exception of Folkestone - Dover due to shelling from across the channel.

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

I can think of several branches - Sandling - Hythe and the Elham valley both spring to mind. Both of these temporarily lost passenger services for part of the war, and never really recovered from it.  The New Romney service was reduced. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/new_romney/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hythe_kent/index.shtml

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I can think of several branches - Sandling - Hythe and the Elham valley both spring to mind. Both of these temporarily lost passenger services for part of the war, and never really recovered from it.  The New Romney service was reduced. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/new_romney/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hythe_kent/index.shtml

 

 

I wouldn't call the Elham Valley line as being on the South Coast any more than the Shoreham - Christ Hospital line was. In both cases they were heading straight inland not traversing coastal areas.

 

In any case the writing was on the wall for the Elham Valley and the remains of the Hythe branch well before a certain Austrian Dictator invaded Poland with the former having a fairly minimal service and the later being worked on a one train in steam shuttle basis

 

I would have thought both lines would have used ex SECR motive power rather than LBSCR stuff anyway - though I guess its always possible that some D1s could have migrated eastwards after the installation of 3rd rail removed the bulk of their work on home territory.

 

 

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

D1s (and D3s) were common on a lot of ex-SER lines in the southern half of Kent, especially on the pull-push services. 

[burgundy]

The "bible" on the D tanks is probably Bradley - Locomotives of the LB&SCR - Part 2. 

His notes indicate that, at the end of the war, there were still 26 D tanks, of which 21 were motor fitted, but many in store. By nationalisation "those actively engaged could easily be counted on the fingers of one hand".  253 Pelham worked regularly from Tun Wells until Sept 49 and 252 Buckhurst from Horsham until Sept 1950. 

Does anyone else recall an article in one of the railway mags in the last 12 months which described the final activity of these locos? It was not a magazine that I bought, but I am sure that I saw in in Smiths. Just possibly, that might have something on livery.

Best wishes

Eric  

[Wickham Green]

Indeed - don't forget the only SECR locos with pull-push fittings at this time were the R & R1 0-4-4Ts - and not all of them : presumably the H class received second hand fittings from the Brighton locos ( from 1949 ).

 

Wasn't Dover Folkestone closed because of a slip in the Warren - not as serious as in the Great War.

[pH]

17 hours ago, Steamysandy said:

I got into doing a piece for Railway World many years ago and I found a photo of 2605 in Southern livery at Ayr ( yes- Scotland) taken during the war.

 

Here's another picture of a D1 in Scotland, at Dingwall:

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/28509/1/EN28509-southern-railway-no-2358-on-train-at.htm

[Steamysandy]

6 hours ago, pH said:

 

Here's another picture of a D1 in Scotland, at Dingwall:

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/28509/1/EN28509-southern-railway-no-2358-on-train-at.htm

 I believe this one was used on the Strathpeffer branch as well as pilot at Dingwall

[Wickham Green]

Having checked https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-and-southern-150201.htmlmlast night I can correct my surmise and confirm that TWO D1s DID receive ( unlined ) malachite green - and they were both loaned to the LMS : 2605 & 2627.

[SR71]

Thanks to all responders, you all jumped in so fast that I had to wait until I was on a PC to properly organise a reply. Great to be on a thriving forum. Sadly none of the identified survivors in use at nationalisation are the ones named after areas I have a connection with (isn't it always the way). 

 

On 30/05/2019 at 14:09, burgundy said:

The "bible" on the D tanks is probably Bradley - Locomotives of the LB&SCR - Part 2. 

 

Does anyone else recall an article in one of the railway mags in the last 12 months which described the final activity of these locos? It was not a magazine that I bought, but I am sure that I saw in in Smiths.

 

Good tip, I will have to keep an eye out for it, the only copy of Bradley I can find online is nearly £500 for a combined volume If anyone one knows the magazine article please let me know.

 

On 31/05/2019 at 12:19, Wickham Green said:

Having checked https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-and-southern-150201.html last night I can correct my surmise and confirm that TWO D1s DID receive ( unlined ) malachite green - and they were both loaned to the LMS : 2605 & 2627.

 

Unlined! That would be ideal but sadly my links to both St Reatham and Uckfield are distant.

 

For some reason I hadn't considered using the loco number in google until yesterday but turned up the below, in colour no less! (not posting link to host as it is a 'rival' forum )

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/AyvpKHHXVWp1gZjA9

 

Now I know old colour photos cannot be trusted for accuracy when colour matching but what is very odd is the contrast in colours shown. The side of the tanks would appear to be regular lined Maunsell green but the splasher and boiler seem to be nearer to a brown... that can't be New improved engine green nearly 16 years after it was last used can it? (picture credited as 1939). It seems especially unlikely if the tank and cab have been repainted.

 

 Thanks

[IWCR]

Loco  looks like it has been out of use for some time.  There is a plate over the flange for the clack valve which is missing.  (Not a certainty as one pattern of the boilers fitted had provision for both side mounted and backhead mounted clacks, choose as required)

The Smokebox is rusty, this would have been black.  The boiler cladding and splashers  may just be weathered with rust and the old paintwork showing through (LBSC umber).  There are also areas on the cab and footsteps.  The number has weathered with streaking down the tanks.

 

Pete

[Steamport Southport]

10 hours ago, SR71 said:

 

Good tip, I will have to keep an eye out for it, the only copy of Bradley I can find online is nearly £500 for a combined volume  

 

 

Keep looking and be patient. You should be able to get a copy on eBay or Amazon for about £10 to £15. That's the range of prices I paid for them.

 

 

 

Jason

[asmay2002]

11 hours ago, SR71 said:

Good tip, I will have to keep an eye out for it, the only copy of Bradley I can find online is nearly £500 for a combined volume If anyone one knows the magazine article please let me know.

Bookfinder is your friend

 

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=Bradley&title=Locomotives&lang=any&isbn=&new=1&used=1&ebooks=1&destination=gb&currency=GBP&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr

 

 

[Wickham Green]

On 02/06/2019 at 08:33, SR71 said:

Thanks to all responders, you all jumped in so fast that I had to wait until I was on a PC to properly organise a reply. Great to be on a thriving forum. Sadly none of the identified survivors in use at nationalisation are the ones named after areas I have a connection with (isn't it always the way). 

 

 

Good tip, I will have to keep an eye out for it, the only copy of Bradley I can find online is nearly £500 for a combined volume If anyone one knows the magazine article please let me know.

 

 

Unlined! That would be ideal but sadly my links to both St Reatham and Uckfield are distant.

 

For some reason I hadn't considered using the loco number in google until yesterday but turned up the below, in colour no less! (not posting link to host as it is a 'rival' forum )

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/AyvpKHHXVWp1gZjA9

 

Now I know old colour photos cannot be trusted for accuracy when colour matching but what is very odd is the contrast in colours shown. The side of the tanks would appear to be regular lined Maunsell green but the splasher and boiler seem to be nearer to a brown... that can't be New improved engine green nearly 16 years after it was last used can it? (picture credited as 1939). It seems especially unlikely if the tank and cab have been repainted.

 

 Thanks

With Bradley in front of me, now, I can advise that : -

"At the end of hostilities there were twenty-one D1/M's and five D1's in Southern Railway stock .... although many were in store and unlikely to be steamed again." [ 2699 was among eleven in store at Eastbourne - and this is the last time it's mentioned : until withdrawn 2/1948 ]

2283 seems to have been operational at Horsham at this time but disappears off Bradley's radar until withdrawn 11/1948.

"in May, 1946 No.2215 was removed from store [ Eastbourne ] and following a general repair and repaint at Brighton Works was despatched to Tunbridge Wells West , and for the next couple of years was a familiar sight on the Tonbridge, Oxted or Brighton services. ..... until towed away .... on 22nd February, 1950."

"At Nationalisation those actively engaged could easily be counted on the fingers of one hand ........ No.2253 of Tunbridge Wells West was one of the few .... until the morning of 17th September, 1949. [ This loco was painted unlined Maunsell green with Bulleid lettering in 1939 - but did it carry this to the end or was a coat of black applied at some time ? ]  .... No.2252 .... Horsham ..... end came on 21st September, 1950, which left only 701S derelict at Nine Elms and No.2359 supplying steam intermittently at Dover. Both were condemned during the next twelve months."

THE END

[Ian Morgan]

For all things Southern, SEmG is the resource to consult. Here are the D1 pages including a post war photo at Brighton, on page 2.

[Wickham Green]

For all things Southern, SEmG is the resource to consult ......... except when it comes to identifying loco sheds : -

 

Nº2253 seen on shed somewhere, sometime! : surely that's Brighton ? mid-to late thirties.

Nº2252, captured on the turntable outside a roundhouse. : loco allocared to Horsham - Horsham had one of the few half-roundhouses on the Southern, and it looked very much like this.

[SR71]

On 03/06/2019 at 09:57, Wickham Green said:

With Bradley in front of me, now, I can advise that : -

"At the end of hostilities there were twenty-one D1/M's and five D1's in Southern Railway stock .... although many were in store and unlikely to be steamed again." [ 2699 was among eleven in store at Eastbourne - and this is the last time it's mentioned : until withdrawn 2/1948 ]

2283 seems to have been operational at Horsham at this time but disappears off Bradley's radar until withdrawn 11/1948.

"in May, 1946 No.2215 was removed from store [ Eastbourne ] and following a general repair and repaint at Brighton Works was despatched to Tunbridge Wells West , and for the next couple of years was a familiar sight on the Tonbridge, Oxted or Brighton services. ..... until towed away .... on 22nd February, 1950."

"At Nationalisation those actively engaged could easily be counted on the fingers of one hand ........ No.2253 of Tunbridge Wells West was one of the few .... until the morning of 17th September, 1949. [ This loco was painted unlined Maunsell green with Bulleid lettering in 1939 - but did it carry this to the end or was a coat of black applied at some time ? ]  .... No.2252 .... Horsham ..... end came on 21st September, 1950, which left only 701S derelict at Nine Elms and No.2359 supplying steam intermittently at Dover. Both were condemned during the next twelve months."

THE END

Wickham Green, thank you so much for taking the time to type that all out. Sadley none of the 'survivors' resonate with me as much as Wimbledon does and so I think I may borrow 2215's history for it... or 2253 if I can't face the lining...

 

On 02/06/2019 at 18:46, IWCR said:

Loco  looks like it has been out of use for some time.  There is a plate over the flange for the clack valve which is missing.  (Not a certainty as one pattern of the boilers fitted had provision for both side mounted and backhead mounted clacks, choose as required)

The Smokebox is rusty, this would have been black.  The boiler cladding and splashers  may just be weathered with rust and the old paintwork showing through (LBSC umber).  There are also areas on the cab and footsteps.  The number has weathered with streaking down the tanks.

 

Pete

 

You make an interesting observation about the clacks. I had wondered about them too but looking through the pictures there seems to have been various ways of installing them on the different class members. Some have pipes running outside the splashers and some inside. The picture of 299 on this page would indicate that it was built with backhead clacks but it is the only one of the class I've seen like this?

 

http://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Stroudley/D1.xhtml

 

But it still raises a question had the clacks been 'borrowed' while in store would someone have gone to the effort of blanking them off? From the information in Wickham Green's post 5-6 years plus is a long time to hold locos out of service when presumably they were taking up shed space.

 

Would the loco's have just had the fire dropped after a failure or reaching their next overhaul and left in the queue with newer engines leapfrogging them due to their greater usefulness in service? Would there have been some level of preservative maintenance carried out? Presumably from the timing the catalyst for finally scrapping them was nationalisation otherwise would the Southern have likely held onto them far longer? I had always understood the disproportionate numbers of Southern locos preserved was because they ended up at Dai Woodham's in greater numbers but is there an element of hoarding there too?

 

Not exactly on the topic of my original request but a whole area I had never really considered.

[Wickham Green]

Any loco that was put into store with prospects of further use - Christmas mails is a classic example - would have the fire removed, boiler drained and motion greased.

The Southern's priority was always electrification and when it didn't happen as quickly as anticipated numerous superannuated locos had to be retained ..... not to mention certain West Country branches where particularly ancient machines survived until suitable replacements became available in B.R. days.

[Marshall5]

You could always model Riddlesdown which survived until the mid 50's as County Mental Hospital Whittingham's  'James Friars'.  It operated a private railway from Grimsargh (on the Preston - Longridge branch) to Whittingam Hospital.

Ray.

[Engineer]

Something of relevance to D1 locomotives:

 

I have interests in tramways, especially in London, and I've regularly searched internet sources for relevant material.  In a Lewisham picture archive that included a lot of tram pictures, I found an image of a tank locomotive and train in a street that had a single line with continuous check rail, similar to tram track but not using grooved rail.  This is the picture reference:

 

https://boroughphotos.org/lewisham/grove-street-deptford-51/

 

I believe the loco is of class D1.

I found other pictures in web pages related to Old Deptford, and it seems from these and from OS maps that the street line connected a Deptford Dock Yard to a Cattle Market site. 

 

http://www.olddeptfordhistory.com/2011/05/grove-street-catch-bus-or-train.html

http://www.olddeptfordhistory.com/2013/03/london-brighton-south-coast-railway.html

 

One image of the set seems to be 1920s but others could be later, maybe even post-War 1940s.