Help with new layout design

[Phil Parker]

40 minutes ago, ianly said:

I think you're right, but short of a moderator moving this thread or me starting a new new one on the sub forum you mention I'm stuck here. I'm a moderator on a couple of large forums and can easily move threads. Unfortunately, I can't even see where to ask a moderator for assistance on these forums.

I'm sorry our forum isn't good enough, however the topic has now been moved.

[ianly]

Thanks, for moving the thread, much appreciated.

[Harlequin]

Hi Ian,

 

You have two facing crossovers, which were avoided as far as possible in the steam era. Not sure about modern image. (And obviously facing points are inevitable for entry to platform loops.)

 

If the crossovers are hidden from view, no problem - you can do what you like in the fiddle yard but if they are in the scenic area they might be questionable.

 

There seem to be some tight radii and some unnecessary wiggles. The heritage station seems a bit small and cramped and the hidden fiddle yard is still a worry to me. I wouldn't do it but maybe you are forced into it or you've got it all worked out. BTW: You should avoid convex corners in your backscene unless you can disguise them with buildings.

 

Sorry to be negative. I'm sure it's possible to do something really great in that space but it might take some creative thinking!

 

Could you combine the heritage area with the main line station?  So not a separate station but a private yard off the mainline, in what would have been the goods yard in earlier times.

 

Don't get too hung up on the baseboards size and position - unless you've already built them. Work out the ideal track plan first and then design a simple arrangement of baseboards to support it and the scenery.

 

[Chimer]

I wonder about the possibility of the heritage line being a separate circuit at a higher level?

[ianly]

6 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Sorry to be negative. I'm sure it's possible to do something really great in that space but it might take some creative thinking!

 

Not to worry, I asked for advice, and what you've all given to date has been very helpful and appreciated. Unfortunately, creative thinking has never been one of my stronger attributes 

 

Having facing points doesn't really concern me, but your comment regarding their location is one that I certainly don't wish to ignore. Therefore, in below plan I've moved them into the fiddle yard (shown in blue) and linked them to the two through lanes. Hopefully, this is a more appropriate location. I've also highlighted (yellow) what I think you meant by unnecessary wiggles. I'll keep them for now, but expect they'll eventually disappear or be tweaked. 

 

The heritage station has been temporarily removed from below plan, although I did look at how I could integrate into the the main station area as you describe. Sadly, I'm struggling to see a way to do so that doesn't involve moving the main station  which then puts it a touch too close to the lift up section. I need to include same due to location of the floor hatch from garage below. That being said, I do like the idea of the heritage station and main station being in the same general area as the main station. I suspect the work around may mean that I need to rotate the layout through 180 degrees.

 

BTW, the heritage platform was shown 1.25 metres, which I thought would be enough for a steam loco and four coaches.

 

The reason for showing the fiddle yard behind a scenic break was more to do with how I eventually intend to operate the layout rather than just aesthetics. My intention has always been to keep the track arrangement as simple as possible, but not so simple that I end up with the same pair of trains going round and round or that it doesn't have some sense of realism. By introducing the fiddle yard as suggested in the earlier posts I should be able to sequence more trains to run at the same time. For example, as one train goes of scene in the fiddle yard and stops another will be leaving.

 

Again, thanks all for your help to date and any further guidance you can give.

 

[ianly]

4 hours ago, Chimer said:

I wonder about the possibility of the heritage line being a separate circuit at a higher level?

 

Thanks, Chimer, it's certainly something I have thought about, especially having looked at the plans Phil drafted for TallPaul69 in his 'Design Idea Welcome' thread. An alternative might be to keep the heritage line all at the higher level. If you can share any other examples or tracks plans that you think might work with the space I have then I'll certainly check them out.

[Harlequin]

What about something like this?

Angled so that the trackwork reduces down and becomes simplest where it crosses the hatch.

Four tracks coming out of the fiddle yard to save going down to two and back up to four again through the station.

Overbridge disguises the 4-track entrance into the scenic area, suggests platforms might continue offscene and suggests loops might be very long.

Heritage yard taking over ex-goods yard and using space inside mainline curve.

 

[FraserClarke]

On 29/05/2019 at 21:01, ianly said:

I’m looking to model an imaginary location on the GWR mainline from Reading westwards. As such, I’ve shown four tracks and station platforms. I expect to run a mix of passenger (inc. 2+4 HST and DMUs) and freight. I also hope to occasionally run a couple of heritage steamers, although unclear as to the best location for storage sheds and/or a small country type station.

 

Well you've pretty much described either Didcot or Cholsey :-)  Attached is a layout for a simplified Cholsey-type station with only the slow lines included.  The heritage railway uses the former bay platform, but is completely disconnected from the main running lines.  Cholsey station itself has the fast lines 'below' the station (not serving it), and you could probably fit those in if you wanted. 

 

As you want it imaginary, I've brought in elements of the branch to Faringdon and the station at Uffington Junction.  This was always just two roads.  It has the advantage of a nice overbridge to cover exit stage left...  In former times, the small goods yard was off-scene beyond the bridge.  You could use a footbridge as the other break, and as other say suggest that the platforms continue off scene.   I've made a very simple modern rationalised plan with no pointwork on the main running lines.   If you wanted an earlier era, you could I think connect up the branch,  add a cross-over near the bridge, and have the occasional cameo of goods trains stopping on scene in the station, and then setting back into the yard off scene. 

 

Grids here at 6", so all the boards are 2ft, except the bottom which is 2'6", and the right (over your hatch) which is 1ft (could be narrower).   It would clearly benefit from some more flowing design, and more considered baseboard shapes :-)    There seems to be space for 3 road fiddle yards on both the up and down mains (not detailed here), and a 'swap' road in the middle to change from one loop to the other if needed.  The small heritage railway has just two roads, but that's enough to cope with even the most extensive gala events

 

I can give you the anyrail file as a basis if you want. 

 

 

[ianly]

Thanks, Phil. I hadn't even thought along the lines you've shown. found the concept is really interesting that I'd started to convert your sketch to a layout plan to see how it looked. Unfortunately, I'll need to park everything for a week or so.

[sammyboy]

A nice plan as seen above. But, a couple of ideas from me:

 

You could lay a couple of sidings next to the heritage railway's run round loop - even one of them could have a small engine shed?

 

How about a connection between the heritage branch line and Network Rail's main line, so that steam and preserved diesels could be delivered by rail, like you would sometimes see at those handful of heritage lines that are lucky to have a interchange with the main line network?

 

Sam

[ianly]

On 18/06/2019 at 16:59, FraserClarke said:

 

Well you've pretty much described either Didcot or Cholsey :-)  Attached is a layout for a simplified Cholsey-type station with only the slow lines included.  The heritage railway uses the former bay platform, but is completely disconnected from the main running lines.  Cholsey station itself has the fast lines 'below' the station (not serving it), and you could probably fit those in if you wanted. 

 

I can give you the anyrail file as a basis if you want. 

 

 

Thanks, Fraser, and apologies for not responding to your post earlier.

 

I spent few hours on Google Maps and Youtube today checking out Cholsey (I'd looked at Didcot Parkway a few weeks back). As you say, it certainly aligns pretty close with my original thinking. I watched at least 10 Youtube videos on the station that date from around 2014 though to early June of this year. Interestingly, there appears to be quite a lot of passenger and freight traffic that travels through the station. There also appears to be a good mix of liveries on freight traffic. Therefore, even with just the two slow lines it looks like I could easily achieve something interesting, although I'm think that including the two fast lines would be even better.

 

The heritage railway stopping as it does at Cholsey station reduces the need for the separate station that I'd been planning for. However, as Sam mentioned, I'll need to figure out how to get the persevered locos onto the correct slow main line. I suspect that's best done somewhere off-scene, although not quite sure where is best.

 

If you could share the 'Anyrail' file with me that would be great. I have the limited copy on my Windows PC but haven't spent any time trying to learn how to use. 

 

Again, thanks for your input.

 

[FraserClarke]

No problem. .any files attached (if I can? -- apparently not, will PM...).

Also here is a version with a link to the down main (trailing point). This just doesn't look right to me... It would be much better to have a trailing point off the up line, with a single slip on the down to make it a trailing crossover.  I just couldn't get it to fit with the curves though (unless you're willing to get into building your own trackwork!?!) 

 

 

Also, in my - relatively limited - experience of volunteering at a heritage railway centre with ONLY a rail connection,  I'm pretty sure that a road connection in the modern world is MUCH more valuable!!  Unless it's a engine with a current mainline ticket, moving things by road is I understand cheaper and easier... 

If anyone visits Didcot Railway Centre, you might be interested to know that the new loco access steps in the engine shed were designed not only to fit the engine footplate, but also to fit (by 1") within the W6a loading gauge when on the back of a wagon!! 

 

[ianly]

Thanks, Fraser, files received.

[ianly]

It took a while, but I've decided that Cholsey is sufficiently close to my original brief that I'm going to go with it.  Unfortunately, the limitation on the number of track elements available in free version of Anyrail prevented me from developing Fraser's plans any further. So, it was back to RailModeller Pro. In attached version I've worked up the main fiddle yard.

 

I also decided that it was probably best to leave the heritage rail as is. Doing so will allow me to shunt a couple of carriages back and forth as actually happens in reality. I might even run a Class 153 DMU on this line occasionally. Leaving the heritage line as is also means that any larger steamers I might add later can be run on one of the main lines.

 

I'm still unsure as to whether I should add the two fast lines Fraser mentioned. I think that doing so would add more interest, especially as the mix of freight (inc. liveries) and passenger traffic that runs on same is quite wide ranging. On the other hand, there's a good deal of freight and non stopping passenger traffic that goes straight through the active half of the station. While adding the two fast lines appears fairly simple I would need to expand the fiddle yard or reduce the number of lanes available for the two slow lines. Any thoughts/suggestions on which way to go would be of great help.

 

Also, while researching the various approaches to how best to configure the fiddle yard I realised that since I plan to include sound on all or most of the locos then I may have an issue since they'll all will be on live track. Is this the issue some suggest and what methods are available to reduce/eliminate? 

 

[ianly]

I forget to include one of the options I've worked up for a possible 4 track solution. Obviously, it's no longer Cholsey, but this or something similar might well be a reasonable compromise.

 

 

[Zomboid]

You might need some on-scene up/down crossovers.

Not unlike Totnes if the SDR station was closer. Or not a million miles from the arrangement at Princes Risborough.

[Harlequin]

I hope you don't mind me saying this but it's a bit dull. Especially the heritage part, which would get very boring very quickly, I imagine.

 

If you want to run a heritage train on the main you'll have to move it by hand. Your hands might simulate Fraser's road-transport connection to the heritage but it's a bit unsatisfying in terms of modelling.

The loco release spurs at each end of the heritage line are not long enough to let a loco run round.

There's no storage space at either end of the heritage line, if you are going to use those run rounds as run rounds. All you can do is run from one end to the other, run round, and repeat.

 

If you want to reverse trains on the main line (I.e. pretend they have reached a terminus somewhere and are coming back) then you really need crossovers outside the fiddle yard loops.  Crossovers within the loops as you currently have them mean you have to do a lot more manoeuvring, which may obstruct both the running lines while you do it and may result in the train momentarily appearing on scene in an unexpected place.

 

I notice that Fraser's plan has the main double track circuit only visible in scenery for one-quarter of it's length, BTW.

 

I would go for just a heritage yard (with lots of sidings for shuffling locos and stock and steam era ephemera such as coaling stages and water towers) with a gated connection to the main line so that you run heritage specials on the main lines amongst all the other traffic without having to pick them up and move them.

 

[ianly]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

If you want to run a heritage train on the main you'll have to move it by hand. Your hands might simulate Fraser's road-transport connection to the heritage but it's a bit unsatisfying in terms of modelling.

 

May be not such a bad idea as a static scene, except it would be a crane instead of a hand  

 

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There's no storage space at either end of the heritage line, if you are going to use those run rounds as run rounds. All you can do is run from one end to the other, run round, and repeat.

 

Good catch and is fairly easy to fix.

 

I should add that the Cholsey <> Wallingford branch is pretty much as shown on the plan. I believe they have 3 Class 8's that are used to push/pull two Mk1 Chocolate and Cream coaches. Whichever of the Class 08's is in use simply loops from front to back, then vice versa at other end of line. 

 

At Walligford end there is an additional siding that seems to be used to store wagons and such like. Apparently, they've borrowed/hired a GWR 0-6-0 Pannier tank on a few occasions. Since there is no link to the mainline the Pannier Tank must have been lifted onto the track by crane. May be that's what Fraser was referring to.

 

BTW, I see this as an adjunct rather than in place of the heritage elements I mentioned earlier. In a sense, I can have this branch running any time without impacting on main line activity.

 

Quote

 

If you want to reverse trains on the main line (I.e. pretend they have reached a terminus somewhere and are coming back) then you really need crossovers outside the fiddle yard loops.  Crossovers within the loops as you currently have them mean you have to do a lot more manoeuvring, which may obstruct both the running lines while you do it and may result in the train momentarily appearing on scene in an unexpected place.

 

I would very much prefer not to be reversing trains along the mainline for the reasons you highlight. It's also one of the numerous failings of my original track plan. I'm conscious that mixing heritage stock with modern era needs to be implemented with care otherwise any semblance of realism will get lost, hence asking questions that for many here are fairly basic questions.

 

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I notice that Fraser's plan has the main double track circuit only visible in scenery for one-quarter of it's length, BTW.

 

Yes I noticed that, but it's not necessarily how I intend to portray the scenics.

 

Quote

 

I would go for just a heritage yard (with lots of sidings for shuffling locos and stock and steam era ephemera such as coaling stages and water towers) with a gated connection to the main line so that you run heritage specials on the main lines amongst all the other traffic without having to pick them up and move them.

 

 

Yes, you mentioned that earlier, but I'm not clear on how big it would be and how it would work. If you could point me to an example or track plan I think the mist/smoke might clear. Also, where do I store a rake of four or five Mk1 coaches?

 

Again, thanks for your input

 

[Harlequin]

Maybe something like this???

 

This is just schematic, of course. The actual trackwork would be curved and angled to best fit the baseboards. The next challenge is to see if such an arrangement could be fitted into your space reasonably using standard Peco parts (!!!).

 

The brown lines would be the heritage railway yard, taking over an old goods yard. The dashed line is the boundary fence with gated connections out onto the main line.

The heritage railway also inherits an old branch line bay platform. The branchline itself could either still be in use and could head off-scene alongside the main lines or could be truncated and simply provide a headshunt for the heritage yard.

The exact arrangement of sidings can be altered to suit.

I'm not sure if the platform loops need traps at the ends in the contemporary scene.

 

I imagine that your rake of Mk1s for heritage excursions would be stored in the fiddle yard and brought on scene into one of the platform loops by a modern loco (either on the main line or down the branch). Then the heritage loco would couple up and head out onto the main line.

 

BTW: By reversing I simply meant a train that had previously been running on the Down line that later heads in the opposite direction on the Up line (or vice versa). E.g. Paddington to Penzance, then later Penzance to Paddington.

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Harlequin

[Flying Pig]

51 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Maybe something like this???

 

That's a steam era layout. It would have been heavily rationalised by the time HSTs came along - probably not a slip in sight, just ladders of points.  If there was any connection to the heritage line, it would IMO be a single crossover - perhaps a facing crossover from the up platform loop in your plan.  A facing crossover between the main lines, to the right of the loops would allow down trains to run into the up loop and reverse onto the heritage line. Alternatively, a trailing crossover offscene to the left would allow access from the heritage line to the main - no problem with reversible running through the up platform in this period.

[Harlequin]

8 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

That's a steam era layout. It would have been heavily rationalised by the time HSTs came along - probably not a slip in sight, just ladders of points.  If there was any connection to the heritage line, it would IMO be a single crossover - perhaps a facing crossover from the up platform loop in your plan.  A facing crossover between the main lines, to the right of the loops would allow down trains to run into the up loop and reverse onto the heritage line. Alternatively, a trailing crossover offscene to the left would allow access from the heritage line to the main - no problem with reversible running through the up platform in this period.

 

Right. Yes sorry, modern era is not my thing and I didn't realise that the trackwork would have been rationalised so heavilly.

 

A ladder of points would be tricky because of the extra length required (even the slips might have been too much) but the simple pair of crossovers you suggest would make it much easier to fit everything into the scene.

 

[Zomboid]

I've mentioned it before, but I think the arrangement at Princes Risborough is a very neat answer to this question. It's clear enough on Google overhead photography, but if I get a chance to do a sketch...

 

The Aylesbury branch could be included or not. It's operationally mostly self-contained so it doesn't matter if it's there or not. HSTs have been diverted that way, or without too much of a leap of imagination it could just be plonked on a route that saw them regularly.

[Harlequin]

Rationalised:

 

[Flying Pig]

Princes Risborough diagram on the Traksy site:

 

https://traksy.uk/live/M+31+PRINRIS

 

 

 

[ianly]

Thanks all, above info is really helpful

 

Zoboid,

 

Unfortunately, I didn't understand what you meant in your earlier post, hence not following up on it. However, now that it's been explained, especially the references to Google Maps and Tracksy I think I get the post being made.

 

In first track plan "Princes Risborough" I've copied what I think are the relevant track arrangement directly from Google Maps.  In the second track plan 'Princes Risborough (Flipped)' I've flipped it so that it's on the inside rather than outside of the layout. This shows the branch going into the bay platform and linking into the mainline. I've also left out the loops in the station bay, but these will be put back in later. I'm also assuming that the through line is up/down. Hopefully, I've interpreted all the info shared above correctly.