S&DJR 7F 53809

[michl080]

Good evening,

 

I am starting to build a David Andrews 7F kit and there are already quite a few detail questions I cannot figure out...

 

Starting with the tender, my first question will be regarding tender details, but I am sure there are a lot more to come.

 

I am planning to model 53809, that is nicely restored, however I want to build it as it ran in the 1960s.

 

-- Is 53809 running with its original 1960s tender? I found some pictures that show the air vents in the position behind the rear coal plate. Todays pictures show no air vents at that position.

 

-- Considering that the tender is not original, did the 1960 tender have lifting holes in the coal plates or lifting lugs?

 

-- I found out that all S&DJR 7F had the water scoop removed or eventually never mounted. So far, so good, but I couldn't find any picture of the tender front showing how the scoop was operated. From some other description, it appears as if one of the standards were for the hand brake and one for the water scoop. I assume that 53809 did only have one hand brake standard at the right hand side of the engine (fireman side)

 

any expert around?

 

Michael

 

[John-Miles]

IIRC the tender is a from a compound and not original. I think it gained it when it was preserved.

[michl080]

thanks John-Miles and Blandford1969,

 

I did some more investigation and it looks like you are right. The current tender has flush rivets, it has coal doors and it carries the numberplate "4302". If I take a very close look at the pictures in Ivo Peters "The Somerset & Dorest in the fifites", and read carefully John Jennisons article "LMS tenders Part 1 - The 'old standard' 2500 Gallon Tenders" in the LMS Review magazine, it appears that the current tender carries that number but has a different identity. It appears that 53809 was initially paired with a tender 4302 which had the old coal chute style without doors. There are some pictures in the above mentioned books from the early fifties that show the air vents in the coal space and some later photos that show no air vents at all . I have no idea how the tank was ventilated after removing them from the coal space.

All pictures I could find show no lifting holes in the coal plates, so I assume that they must have lifting lugs.

The currently used tender has its brake standard on the right hand side. I will model it that way assuming that the fireman would be operating the engine brake.

 

I love this investigation in preparation of kit building and I am sure I will have a lot more questions soon.

 

thanks again,

Michael

[phil_sutters]

You can't see any of the detail you want, but here's Dad's only photo of 53809!

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, michl080 said:

thanks John-Miles and Blandford1969,

 

I did some more investigation and it looks like you are right. The current tender has flush rivets, it has coal doors and it carries the numberplate "4302". If I take a very close look at the pictures in Ivo Peters "The Somerset & Dorest in the fifites", and read carefully John Jennisons article "LMS tenders Part 1 - The 'old standard' 2500 Gallon Tenders" in the LMS Review magazine, it appears that the current tender carries that number but has a different identity. It appears that 53809 was initially paired with a tender 4302 which had the old coal chute style without doors. There are some pictures in the above mentioned books from the early fifties that show the air vents in the coal space and some later photos that show no air vents at all . I have no idea how the tank was ventilated after removing them from the coal space.

All pictures I could find show no lifting holes in the coal plates, so I assume that they must have lifting lugs.

The currently used tender has its brake standard on the right hand side. I will model it that way assuming that the fireman would be operating the engine brake.

 

I love this investigation in preparation of kit building and I am sure I will have a lot more questions soon.

 

thanks again,

Michael

Unless there was something special about the tenders to be paired with the 2-8-0s (and as far as I know, there wasn't) they would be fitted with the next available tender of the appropriate generic type when they came out from overhaul, so what tender any particular locomotive got was, to a fair degree, random. As far as the air vents were concerned, they were only essential on tenders with water scoops, and where they were placed was less important than their being fitted at all. As it is, there was a modification to move them from inside the coal space to behind the bunker, where they could not get submerged in coal, leading to coal dust getting into the water. If a tender has no water scoop, the tank is adequately ventilated via the normal filler, which is anything but airtight. As to lifting fixtures, there will be four, two forward in the coal space and two at the rear, required in order that the tank can be lifted off the frames. Design changes did take place over time, as well as modifications - so long as there were lugs for attaching the lifting slings, the railway was not too worried if they varied from one tender to another.

 

I would, though, doubt your assumption about firemen and engine brakes - the engine (and train) brakes will be under the control of the driver; the tender brake would generally be used by the fireman to assist the driver, but normally only on unfitted or partially fitted trains where the engine had to supply most ofthe brake power. It will almost certainly always be on the same side on every Midland-pattern tender, if only because every design tends to follow the previous one - railway drawing offices were quite conservative and design practices changed very slowly if there was no urgent need to redesign things.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

They weren't fitted with water scoops as they weren't used on the S&DJR.

 

Some details of the tender here. 

 

http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=174

 

 

Jason

[LMS2968]

The handbrake was always on the fireman's side, and the scoop, if fitted, on the driver's side.  Midland-built engines were right hand drive, as were the first generation of Midland designs built by the LMS, but later left hand drive was standardised, even for the Midland designs built from then on (1926?). This applied to the S&DJR 7Fs too: the first batch were RH drive and the second LH drive, so the handbrake would exchange sides on the tender depending on the loco the tender was attached to.

[Wickham Green]

On 03/06/2019 at 00:27, jim.snowdon said:

 ............................. the tender brake would generally be used by the fireman to assist the driver, but normally only on unfitted or partially fitted trains where the engine had to supply most of the brake power.......

Don't forget that the tender had a steam brake operating in  conjunction with the loco brake so any extra force applied by the handbrake might cause the wheels to lock and lose grip. The most frequent use of the handbrake was just as a parking brake.

[LMS2968]

Not when working unfitted goods, where the tender handbrake might be screwed down at the top of a long descent to assist the guard in the brake van. The driver would use the steam brake only intermittently if the train looked to be gaining speed and this would be common on a line like the SDJR. This was a problem when the S160s went into traffic: the wheels were chilled cast iron and the handbrake was intended only as a parking brake. Use as above caused several failures od tender wheelsets.

[jim.snowdon]

On 3 June 2019 at 07:34, LMS2968 said:

The handbrake was always on the fireman's side, and the scoop, if fitted, on the driver's side.  Midland-built engines were right hand drive, as were the first generation of Midland designs built by the LMS, but later left hand drive was standardised, even for the Midland designs built from then on (1926?). This applied to the S&DJR 7Fs too: the first batch were RH drive and the second LH drive, so the handbrake would exchange sides on the tender depending on the loco the tender was attached to.

I can't see any technical reason for this, and the inference that there were left and right handed tenders as a consequence, or that it would matter if a right handed tender were to be paired with a left handed engine. Equally, I can see reason in keeping the layout of the controls on the tender the same whatever the locomotive.

Is there documentary evidence that Midland Railway tenders came in left and right handed forms?

 

Jim 

[LMS2968]

Not Midland tenders but the LMS-built 'Fowler' tenders, which were a development of them. 2968's tender ALWAYS had the handbrake on the fireman's side. The tank is now new and does not have a scoop, but it was there when in Barry, with the operating handle on the driver's side.

 

That's the conventional way around and applies on other Railways too; GWR included; even they didn't go their own way on this one! BR Standards also conformed to the handbrake's being on the fireman's side.

[Wickham Green]

59 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Not Midland tenders but the LMS-built 'Fowler' tenders, which were a development of them. 2968's tender ALWAYS had the handbrake on the fireman's side. The tank is now new and does not have a scoop, but it was there when in Barry, with the operating handle on the driver's side.

 

That's the conventional way around and applies on other Railways too; GWR included; even they didn't go their own way on this one! BR Standards also conformed to the handbrake's being on the fireman's side.

I can confirm that the Southern always put the brake stanchion on the fireman's side too ........ except for the last few of the 'N' class where the driver's side of the loco changed half way through the batch !  ( Considerable tender swapping followed when the next locos with appropriate tenders were built.)

[michl080]

I browsed through many books and checked probably a hundred 7F pictures. In some of them, the handbrake handle can be actually seen on the starboard side of the tender. The only example where I could see the handle on the left side was 53809

 

Please see this picture that shows the front side of an early 3500G Fowler tender and also some description of the brake position.

 

I guess, I will put the standard to the right side. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

Michael

[michl080]

Good evening,

 

can I resurrect this thread please?

 

The kit makes good progress as you can see here,

 

 

but I am a bit stuck now with the "Davies & Metcalfe No 10 hot water injector".

 

The white metal part that is included in the kit looks quite different from any picture I have seen so far. I couldn't find anything comparable at Laure Griffin. The injector itself is well hidden behind the step backplates, but the tubing is quite prominent. Is there any kind soul that can provide a picture or a drawing of the injector?

 

 

Michael

[phil_sutters]

I don't know if you can see enough, but there is a close-up of the area, as 53808 rolls off the turntable at the end of this YouTube clip. 

 

[michl080]

Thanks Phil,

 

very nice movie, but not much injector to see. I am happy to see that they repainted the machine in black. The blue livery was quite strange. I have found a very poor picture of 53808 without tender, where the injector can be seen.

 

 

This is what the kit injectors look like:

 

 

 

Michael

 

[phil_sutters]

I looked through a number of Barry scrap yard photo collections, but despite a few having had the cab steps removed there were no clear views of your plumbing. If you turn your parts photo through 90degrees there seems to be a fair similarity to what one can see in the photo you have found. 

On the subject of inappropriate blue - while looking for 7Fs, I came across model 4Fs in lined blue, apparently by both Hornby and Bachmann. I don't remember any reference to 4Fs in blue. Certainly the batch from Armstrong Whitworth were delivered unlined black.

Edited November 16, 2019 by phil_sutters

[Poor Old Bruce]

AFAIK none of the 4Fs or 7Fs were painted blue in service. It is only since preservation that any 7F has been painted blue. Same applies to the Hornby and Bachmann 4Fs, figments of the makers' imagination.