Colours of levers on ground frames.

[Dmudriver]

Hi.

 

On my layout I have a headshunt to a DMU stabling point.  Access to the main line is through a lever frame which is unlocked from the signal box.  The lever in the box is brown and blue.

 

My question is: what colour should the locking lever on the ground frame be?

 

The other levers are points (x2) and the ground signal.  The point levers will be black and the ground disc lever red - but is this colour correct as the ground disc is in fact yellow allowing  shunting movements within the stabling point to pass it when it is horizontal?

 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Rod

 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Dmudriver

[micknich2003]

Levers working "Yellow" discs are painted Red.

[RailWest]

Firstly, what Region or perceived date of installation for the GF? This might determine whether or not it actually had a locking lever anyway.

Secondly, is it a facing or trailing connection off the main line? If the former, then you would need a FPL (blue) lever as well.

Thirdly, I would suggest probably any locking lever would also be blue/brown, but practice does seem to have varied.

[Dmudriver]

9 hours ago, RailWest said:

Firstly, what Region or perceived date of installation for the GF? This might determine whether or not it actually had a locking lever anyway.

Secondly, is it a facing or trailing connection off the main line? If the former, then you would need a FPL (blue) lever as well.

Thirdly, I would suggest probably any locking lever would also be blue/brown, but practice does seem to have varied.

 

Hello, Railwest.

 

I deliberately simplified the description as it was the lever colour I was concentrating on!!  To answer your questions, though, and put everything into context, here's a sketch of the layout of the area I'm talking about.

 

Track layout - sidings.pdf

Ooops, I've missed out a catch point between P3 and the point from the Down line to the platforms!!  Apologies!!

 

Region is Midand; layout set in late 70s/early 80s. The ground frame is marked GF.  S1 (which is the yellow one) can only be cleared when the route is set to rear of signals 4 and 5.  Signal 6 is purely for movements from the Down line to the sidings. Shunt moves between platforms and sidings must always go via the Up line in rear of signals 4 and 5.  The ground frame operates P1, P2 and S1 only: all others operated  from the box.

 

There is a phone from S1 to the box to request release and confirm completion of shunting moves.   Movements to/from the stabling point are of empty stock only.

 

I've assumed a locking lever is required from my experience as a driver on a preserved railway and the retired signalling inspector who drew the signal box diagram (see my thread) didn't object to it!!!

 

As I said in my original question, the lever in the box is blue/brown:  would the one on the ground be the same colour?

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

Rod

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Dmudriver
Missed off catch point!!

[RailWest]

Well, you need a BR(M) expert really to answer the colour question :-)

 

Is this a real location? If not, then I would question why you need a GF in the middle of a set of sidings anyway. And why so much of it worked from the box, rather than just the un-numbered point between P3 and P4 + a trap point and a single disc leading out of the fan of sidings?

[Dmudriver]

Hit. Nail. Head!!

 

Yes, it is based on a real location and here is a picture of the signal box diagram in the early 70s - provided by an ex-signalman who worked there:

 

 

West Kirby is a terminus on the Merseyrail system and has an intensive service into Liverpool.  As you suggest, there is a single disc, before the trap point leading out of the 2 sidings on the Down side of the station which, with the siding on the Up side, are used to store units in the off-peak.

 

I have complicated matters by adding a stabling point to add more operating interest to the model.  My original plan was to have this set of sidings as a preservation depot (which is why it is referred to as a "private siding") and the layout was set up that way.  As I increased my DMU collection, I decided a stabling point was a better option!!

 

The former signalling inspector I mentioned above recommended the signalling set-up I have now.  Here is a picture of the signalling diagram above my layout (drawn by said former signalling inspector):

 

 

All the other points and signals are worked from the box as that was how it was in real life!  I've left off the track circuiting.

 

Hope you find this interesting.  It's certainly an interesting layout to operate!!

 

Rod.

 

 

PS  If any other reader has thought about the colour of the release lever on the ground frame, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Nick C]

If it's any help, the one at Alton controlling the Network Rail connection has a blue & brown lever (electrically released) , as does the one at East Grinstead (released by token, but may well also have an electric slot). Both blue at the top, brown bottom. 

 

Both obviously based on Southern Region practice however.

[The Stationmaster]

Hmm - so effectively you're taking a probably lightly used connection to a private siding and turning it into a potentially more heavily used connection to a stabling point.  Well to be honest if I was planning that as a real world layout (and I have planned a few in my time, and specified the signalling for them) I would be inclined not to use a ground frame there because it could start to get very complicated with slot controls and conditional locking on the signal box frame = a recipe for pre-planned collisions!

 

The first problem is S1, the yellow disc as with the GF unlocked it conflicts head on th S6 (which has to read to the headshunt) and similarly S4 so opposing locking is needed, certainly not a case where normally opposing locking would be omitted because of the potential frequency of movements to/from the stabling point (as I said we are no longer dealing with a lightly used private siding).   

 

The next question is the wholly logical one of why have a GF there at all?  The only logical reason would be that points P1 are too far from the signal box  to be worked mechanically - and I would suggest that their proximity to points P2 makes that unlikely.  Far cheaper and a lot simpler to provide a STOP board and telephone on the approach to P1 from the stabling point and let locomen 'ring off' for any move trailing from that direction (or even provide a ground signal).  Then S1 as a yellow arm disc makes absolute sense.   This gets round the problem faced by the Signalman that whenever he has a move for the stabling point he would have to track down somebody to first operate the ground frame although that wouldn't resolve the locking conundrum

 

In fact in many respects it would be safer to have S1 worked by the signal box even if the points remain worked by a ground frame because it will obviously detect the points (or be slotted by the GF which would be even better) and it can readily have opposing locking with S4 and S6.  But if a GF were used that still leaves a locking conundrum.

 

The West Kirby situation - working off that diagram is somewhat simpler.  Firstly there will be a relatively few movements to/from the private siding and conditional locking on S4 and S6 is required in any event because of the number of ways they can potentially read - so all that is required for them is an extra lead including  23 in addition to 27 & 28 (and 27 would release 23_.  The only shortcoming I can see on that layout is that there is no signal reading out of the siding  which in many respects is not a problem although I would be looking for one at the toe of 28 to add 'belt & braces;' should there be any verbal misunderstanding in respect of a move from the siding.  but it's a different kettle of fish once you look at a potentially much busier stabling point.

 

However having said all that on the Western we did it our way and were sometimes rather shocked by what we considered much slacker approaches elsewhere.  Although oddly after sectorisation when ex Eastern folk took over the Rules & Signalling side of Trainload Freight they were a little surprised by what they considered to be the less that safe way in which the Western had done some things.  What the both of us thought of some LMR practices is probably best not repeated    

[Martin Shaw]

Hi DMUdriver

Notwithstanding all the interesting diversionary conversation, the release lever on the ground frame should be blue over brown. It may also work an FPL if required in which case it would be full length, or if a separate FPL lever is installed, certainly current practice,  the release lever would be cut down, whether electrically or key released. BY the 70's the painting colours for levers was a UK wide standard although plenty of earlier examples existed to contradict it.

Regards

Martin

[Dmudriver]

On ‎04‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 10:00, The Stationmaster said:

Hmm - so effectively you're taking a probably lightly used connection to a private siding and turning it into a potentially more heavily used connection to a stabling point.  Well to be honest if I was planning that as a real world layout (and I have planned a few in my time, and specified the signalling for them) I would be inclined not to use a ground frame there because it could start to get very complicated with slot controls and conditional locking on the signal box frame = a recipe for pre-planned collisions!

 

The first problem is S1, the yellow disc as with the GF unlocked it conflicts head on th S6 (which has to read to the headshunt) and similarly S4 so opposing locking is needed, certainly not a case where normally opposing locking would be omitted because of the potential frequency of movements to/from the stabling point (as I said we are no longer dealing with a lightly used private siding).   

 

The next question is the wholly logical one of why have a GF there at all?  The only logical reason would be that points P1 are too far from the signal box  to be worked mechanically - and I would suggest that their proximity to points P2 makes that unlikely.  Far cheaper and a lot simpler to provide a STOP board and telephone on the approach to P1 from the stabling point and let locomen 'ring off' for any move trailing from that direction (or even provide a ground signal).  Then S1 as a yellow arm disc makes absolute sense.   This gets round the problem faced by the Signalman that whenever he has a move for the stabling point he would have to track down somebody to first operate the ground frame although that wouldn't resolve the locking conundrum

 

In fact in many respects it would be safer to have S1 worked by the signal box even if the points remain worked by a ground frame because it will obviously detect the points (or be slotted by the GF which would be even better) and it can readily have opposing locking with S4 and S6.  But if a GF were used that still leaves a locking conundrum.

 

The West Kirby situation - working off that diagram is somewhat simpler.  Firstly there will be a relatively few movements to/from the private siding and conditional locking on S4 and S6 is required in any event because of the number of ways they can potentially read - so all that is required for them is an extra lead including  23 in addition to 27 & 28 (and 27 would release 23_.  The only shortcoming I can see on that layout is that there is no signal reading out of the siding  which in many respects is not a problem although I would be looking for one at the toe of 28 to add 'belt & braces;' should there be any verbal misunderstanding in respect of a move from the siding.  but it's a different kettle of fish once you look at a potentially much busier stabling point.

 

However having said all that on the Western we did it our way and were sometimes rather shocked by what we considered much slacker approaches elsewhere.  Although oddly after sectorisation when ex Eastern folk took over the Rules & Signalling side of Trainload Freight they were a little surprised by what they considered to be the less that safe way in which the Western had done some things.  What the both of us thought of some LMR practices is probably best not repeated    

HI Stationmaster.

 

Thanks for your comments.  My apologies for not replying sooner - I thought I had, but I can't find what I'd written, so I expect it never got saved.

 

I think I should start by protecting my adviser's reputation!!  He advised me on the signalling setup and drew the diagram knowing only that I was having the preservation society in the private siding.  It was only when I'd done all the trackwork and signalling, and started building up more stock that I decided that I'd move the society out (to elsewhere) and use the area as a stabling point.  He does not know of the later development!!

 

Using the GF came from my experience as a DMU driver on a preserved railway.  The 2 locations we operated from in my time there were both accessed from the main (single) line by GFs.  Both had a lock on them which was released by the bobby after a phone call to ask permission to leave or enter the siding(s).  On one frame there was a plunger to press (released from the box) before pulling the locking lever: the other required the single line token inserting into the machine before the bobby could give the release.  There was then a releasing lever to pull before 2 levers for the crossover points and a fourth for the signals.  This latter crossover could be used reasonably often as it also allowed access to the C&W workshops and could be used as a second access to the engine shed.  

 

On the model, the stabling point is not that big - it has 2 sidings which hold 4 cars and one which holds 2 cars: in practice there's just  a 4-car, a 3-car and a 2-car stabled there.  It does have a fuelling point but movements in and out would only be at the beginning and end of the day, as would refuelling (except in an emergency!!!).  Stock which is not used outside the rush hours is stabled in the sidings in the station area rather than returning to the stabling point.  So, all in all, there isn't that much movement to/from the stabling point during the day.  In these circumstances, would a GF be a complete "no no"?  I envisage the 4 levers being the locking lever (Blue/brown) 2 point levers (black) and the ground signal (red).  I could paint the latter white if the yellow disc was operated from the box.

 

Rod

 

[beast66606]

Personally I would put the points onto the box, add a yellow armed ground signal where the NG  is on the diagram - 2 levers extra. Make the points 23 and the signal 18 - which would tie in slightly with the old layout when the Hooton line was open and 18 was a signal off that line (not sure what 18 actually was but there was a couple of signals off the branch in that general number area so it's near enough)