DJM, the end.

[MGR Hooper!]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Or he simply may have been doing what any business would and keep on regardless until there is no alternative, you certainly don't post bad news about your finances unless you have to.

Agreed...

Dovetail Games, the popular creators of the Train Simulator series and Train Sim World series had taken over Microsoft Flight Simulator, they first released the DTG Flight Simulator X: Steam Edition of the game, then they released DTG Flight School and then over a span of a year they posted pictures and updates about their forthcoming DTG Flight Simulator. Then in a week it all turned arond, infact the last week was bizzare, they were still selling games, having sales and so on and then one fine day they announce that they've dropped the whole genre of flight simulation.

[truffy]

2 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

One can contact CG purely for advice but changing your registered address to theirs is another matter.

I'm not an expert on such matters, nor do I wish to become one, so I'm not going to speculate.

[adb968008]

On a different note, the price of a DJ class 71 seems to have benefitted..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-DJ-Models-DJM0071-002-Class-71-Electric-Loco-E5004-Ltd-Edition-of-200/143140272000?hash=item2153d33780:g:MM4AAOSwSL5cbQLt

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

One can contact CG purely for advice but changing your registered address to theirs is another matter.

 

14 minutes ago, truffy said:

I'm not an expert on such matters, nor do I wish to become one, so I'm not going to speculate.

I think we all know where this is going but until it is official it is just as truffy says speculation.

[Chalfytich]

To be fair when Dave posted the payment schedule for the King when it was first announced he said the deposit was non-refundable as it was to cover the cost of the work he had done so far, so we went into it with our eyes open. Having said that, and reading what has been posted, can we still claim if we paid by credit card? 

 

Dave 

[jjb1970]

38 minutes ago, Legend said:

Following on from Phils comments above that CG&Co haven't been appointed yet (as what, administrators, receivers, liquidators?) ,is there a danger we might have jumped the gun here ?  While we have suspicions do we know the actual status of the company ?  In such circumstances it might be best to refrain from further comment until this is known , for fear of actually making the position worse . Its a bit like initiating a run on the bank in some ways .   Having said that I think its fair to warn anyone considering placing an order that there are uncertainties over the status of the company. 

 

Given the reliance of DJM on crowd funding, I suspect that if this thread and no doubt others on other message boards have jumped the gun they may well become self fulfilling predictions as any remaining crowd funders who still had any confidence in DJM are probably going to bale out now.

[Chalfytich]

20 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

One can contact CG purely for advice but changing your registered address to theirs is another matter.

The registered address for my business is my accountants address, but the business operates independently from it's own address

Dave

[classy52]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

On a different note, the price of a DJ class 71 seems to have benefitted..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-DJ-Models-DJM0071-002-Class-71-Electric-Loco-E5004-Ltd-Edition-of-200/143140272000?hash=item2153d33780:g:MM4AAOSwSL5cbQLt

 

Lol what a joker ...the ebay seller

Edited June 4, 2019 by classy52

[Edwardian]

Speculation cannot help any one.  Neither can saying "I saw this coming'", though I suspect a number of us did. It is possibly reasonable, however, to outline the likely scenarios with reference to some of the known factors in this case, as it will be sometime before definite and detailed information is forthcoming and creditors, such as crowdfunding customers, will naturally be concerned in the meantime. 

 

If, as is likely, this is Administration, this is in itself a non-terminal insolvency process.  Administration can, in theory, lead to the return to trading of the company, though it is fair to say that this is a relatively rare outcome. Administration more often leads to the sale of the business as a going concern.  Where this happens, the assets are purchased and the liabilities are left behind (with the exception of employees).  The money raised will go first to the Administrators' fees and next to any secured creditors.  I repeat, HMRC are no longer preferential creditors.  Anything left goes pari passu to the unsecured creditors. Naturally the unsecured creditors, if they receive anything at all, will be left at least partly out of pocket, otherwise the company would not be insolvent to begin with.  After the proceeds of the business sale and/or asset sale are applied, the company would then be formerly liquidated.  

 

To understand what is happening here, we need to wait for the appointment of the insolvency practitioners to be filed.  Then we will need to see their report in due course.

 

Nevertheless, there are some factors that have been aired in public that it is reasonable to suppose will affect matters. For instance, if distributions to creditors are dependent upon the realisation of assets, such as tooling, that may be the subject of dispute in China and potentially beyond the effective reach of the insolvency practitioners, there may simply be no practical means of realising such assets, leaving less in the pot than the theoretical asset value of the company based on its accounts might suggest.

 

Another known factor here is the taking of money from crowdfunders. The question, and, I think, really the only question, is as whose money these funds are to be regarded?

 

If in effect held on trust for the customer unless and until applied to the project costs, to the extent the funds remain, they should be returned.  If , however, the money, once paid by the customer, became DJ Models' then any funds as yet unspent fall into the assets of the company, to be distributed as indicated above. In the latter case, it seems inevitable that crowd-funders would not see their full payments returned, even if such funds had not yet been committed to the project, and they may receive nothing at all. 

 

Crowd-funders should, therefore, consult the terms of the agreement they had with DJ Models in order answer this question.  Different projects could have had different arrangements in place. If the money is lost to them, in limited circumstances there may be compensation, such as s.75 in respect of credit card purchases, as outlined above.  This is not speculation, as the question is probably capable of being answered by people consulting the contractual arrangements they signed up to. 

 

Finally, there have been hints of potential wrongful trading  - the proprietor going to China on business, indicating all is well, that projects remain live, keeping the order book open etc - so it is important to note that there is no evidence of impropriety here, so far as is known.  In order for a director to commit an impropriety in these circumstances, he must expose the company to further loss where there is no reasonable prospect of the company avoiding an insolvent liquidation.  In short, there is a difference between someone not running a business particularly well, and someone committing an offence under the Insolvency Act  

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Chalfytich said:

To be fair when Dave posted the payment schedule for the King when it was first announced he said the deposit was non-refundable as it was to cover the cost of the work he had done so far, so we went into it with our eyes open. Having said that, and reading what has been posted, can we still claim if we paid by credit card? 

 

I am under the impression that we can but we won't know for sure until we put it to the test. I am awaiting some sort of formal announcement of insolvency (or whatever it is) before I contact my credit card company.

 

 

My impression is that non-refundable meant we could not get a refund if we (the customers) changed our mind(s). Reclaiming from a credit card company because the company has gone bust is a different matter. I hope that we will be able to recover our deposits but I am not sufficiently familiar with financial law to know if we actually will.

 

Having said that, I agree that we went into this with our eyes open. Losing the money will be unpleasant but not catastrophic for me. I hope that the same is true of everyone else who paid up.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

On a different note, the price of a DJ class 71 seems to have benefitted..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-DJ-Models-DJM0071-002-Class-71-Electric-Loco-E5004-Ltd-Edition-of-200/143140272000?hash=item2153d33780:g:MM4AAOSwSL5cbQLt

 

Interesting to note that the seller is away and there may be a delay!  lol. 

[Pete the Elaner]

24 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

He may have honestly believed at that date his business was still solvent, what we don't know is who he owes money too that might have forced his latest move.  Or he simply may have been doing what any business would and keep on regardless until there is no alternative, you certainly don't post bad news about your finances unless you have to.

 

Of course you don't.

 

"I would like an APT please".

"Certainly. I will need £250 now & the project will take about 2 years to complete, although it looks likely that I will go broke in about 6 months time". 

 

I think you are right though. Some may not really care about their customers but to others, their business is a matter of pride and will cling on to any hope of keeping it alive in the hope that they may just make it happen.

[Trains4U]

3 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Interesting to note that the seller is away and there may be a delay!  lol. 

 

The seller is AC Models - they are pretty well known and respected.

They have a rare model, and have priced it accordingly.

 

I'm not seeing the problem.

 

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Not a problem T4U. Just the irony.

[Revolution Mike B]

9 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

 

The seller is AC Models - they are pretty well known and respected.

They have a rare model, and have priced it accordingly.

 

I'm not seeing the problem.

 

 

 

 

Yep, 100% well respected and lovely people.

[adb968008]

On behalf of my employer I had to follow a failed partner in 2017 left owing, my employer at that time, without the benefit of forums, or an ex-business partner (the CEO who i’d personally known for 4 years disappeared overnight), unwilling or unable to share information. Indeed even their own employees were left hanging overnight... information just wasn't forthcoming beyond rumours, even the lady in accounts and in procurement had no idea.

 

 

If this recent development of DJModels is what the general opinion thinks it is.., then this is my experience I can share that may help...

 

*The only information source will be the liquidator.*

 

They may not have all the information they need, and may not have access to it. They will try their reasonable best to reach out using formal processes, taking into account recovery of their own fees in this process and what assets they can secure, but you cant assume anything. Similarly you shouldn't rely on word of mouth.

 

However there are strict defined processes for how this is handled, including official notices, timelines etc.

 

 I’d highly recommend watching the Gazette.., as this is the known reporting process, as there will be tight deadlines.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk

 

specifically for notices on:

 

”appointment of liquidators” - expected first step.

“Notices to creditors”

“Petitions to wind up”

“Meetings of creditors”

”resolutions for winding up”

 

The liquidators will be honest and blunt of the situation, how it arose, and your likely hoods of recovery, any debts, shortfall, leftovers and timescales.

 

in my experience of the situation, that company left 40+ employees unpaid overnight, in April,  with debts past £1.2m to a bank, and nothing but desks/chairs and a half dozen laptops. There software code was sold to pay the liquidators... so my employer recovered nothing.

 

It will all be public record, it was all over by August.

 

I hope for everyone who put money into this, that it isn't what it looks like.

Edited June 4, 2019 by adb968008

[atom3624]

I was going to say the same - I've had no problems with AC Models.

 

Al.

[Roy Langridge]

2 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

I was going to say the same - I've had no problems with AC Models.

 

Al.

 

Only problem I have had is the amount of money I have spent there over the years ;-)

 

Only a short walk from Eastleigh station and a visit well recommended to anybody who is in the area. A well stocked shop and very friendly staff.

Roy

[Colin_McLeod]

I made what I thought was a light hearted comment on a listing for a DJM model. One that is subject to delay as the seller is away.  I was mildly amused by the parallels with Dave Jones being away, and with delays to DJM projects.

 

I had not considered that some would not "see the joke" and jump to the defence of the seller.

 

For the record, I have no problems with AC Models.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[Trains4U]

1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I made what I thought was a light hearted comment on a listing for a DJM model. One that is subject to delay as the seller is away.  I was amused by the parallels with Dave Jones being away, and with delays to DJM projects.

 

I had not considered that some would not "see the joke" and jump to the defence of the seller.

 

For the record, I have no problems with AC Models.

 

 

 

I shouldn't worry.

 

My concern is that the links were shown without context, and one other poster labelled the seller as "A Joker" which is a bit unfair.

The insinuation (even if unintended) is that AC models are possibly profiteering from this news, which would also be somewhat unfair on them.

 

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

 

I shouldn't worry.

 

My concern is that the links were shown without context, and one other poster labelled the seller as "A Joker" which is a bit unfair.

The insinuation (even if unintended) is that AC models are possibly profiteering from this news, which would also be somewhat unfair on them.

 

Apologies I wasn't pointing out the seller (who i’ve no relation) but the situation..

 

£299 is by far the most expensive Ive ever seen a DJ class 71, ever.

 

ebay shows the most expensive one sold as £126, including sound.

average sold prices...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=class+71+dj+models&_sop=15

There is an identical one for sale at £120.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DJ-MODELS-HATTONS-00-GAUGE-OO71-002HAT-CLASS-71-BR-GREEN-E5015-SPECIAL-ED/283093249084?epid=23022391677&hash=item41e9ac2c3c:g:ScUAAOSwwsZbavwD

The going rate is £80.

 

Hattons still sell Class 71’s for £99

https://www.hattons.co.uk/206914/dj_models_dave_jones_oo71_002hat_class_71_e5015_in_br_southern_region_light_green_with_full_golden_arrow_headboar/stockdetail.aspx

 

if you think £299 is reasonable, then we differ in opinion, and by accounts, evidence too.

The seller can of course ask whatever price they chose.

Edited June 4, 2019 by adb968008

[Trains4U]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

if you think £299 is reasonable...

 

I never said that!   

 

[Great Western]

Could a Mod explain why my comment has been removed ? 

 

 

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, Great Western said:

Could a Mod explain why my comment has been removed ? 

 

 

 

Because I said no "told you so" gloating posts and you ignored this. You aren't the only one. 

 

People MAY* lose money over this. Some will be pretty fed up about it. In consideration for their feelings, I'd rather we didn't play host to people pointing and laughing at them. 

 

*Since we can't be sure. The people who will work this out haven't, as I said earlier, even been properly appointed yet.  If anyone can confidently predict the future, they would be better off working on lottery numbers than the future of DJM.

[MGR Hooper!]

6 minutes ago, Great Western said:

Could a Mod explain why my comment has been removed ? 

 

 

You cannot say anything against DJM, especially if you've tried to warn people about dealing with him and/or shared an unfortunate experience with DJM.

No "I told you so" posts.....

Edited June 4, 2019 by MGR Hooper!