DJM, the end.

[TrentValleyRailway]

I paid the deposits for a couple of 92s and intrigued to see where this all ends up, happy to keep waiting ... which is nothing new... but needs to be closed out one way or another soon such that our modelling money can be spent in our best interests 

[sammmm]

I wonder how this fairs for the Shark brake van , been collecting the Dogfish's in anticipation of it..maybe its time to buy the NGS kit  

Edited June 4, 2019 by sammmm

[PMP]

38 minutes ago, Armchair Modeller said:

It was actually in the blog section (correction from my last post

 

Availability (out of the office)

by djones | May 7, 2019 | Blog

Hi everyone, I'm not back in the 'office' until the 17th of May, so any news will probably come at or slightly after that date. However rest assured i am trying to get answers, results and an update together for you on the various current projects. Dave

 

This does not indicate that Dave Jones was in China. Just that he was out of the office.

 

I think @Colin_McLeod mentioned that was from an email he received. Apologies Colin if I’ve misquoted or attributed incorrectly to you.

[Colin_McLeod]

8 minutes ago, PMP said:

 

This does not indicate that Dave Jones was in China. Just that he was out of the office.

 

I think @Colin_McLeod mentioned that was from an email he received. Apologies Colin if I’ve misquoted or attributed incorrectly to you.

 

Yes PMP I did quote an email I received from Dave on 14th May which mentions China in the same sentence as "the trip."  For convenience I repeat my own post below:

 

6 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Not sure of the relevance but as recently as 14th May Dave was indicating that the APT-P project is still active.  This is an e mail he sent me in response to my request the previous day for an update on timescale.

From: Dave Jones <nthusiast@hotmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:50:48 PM

To: Colin McLeod
Subject: Re: APT-P oo version


Hi Colin,

coming up on 5m here, and i'm confused? i have posted nothing on any forums, except a place holder on my web site saying i would be away (and i need to update that as the trip is taking longer than expected).

I've always said that i wont be invoicing for APT deposit 2-4 until the milestones have been reached..... milestone for deposit 2 is a signoff on the design for tooling to begins, milestone for deposit 3 is the 2nd ep tooking, and milestone 4 for production.

China are currently sweating to my demands (hence the trip) as to getting the coaches 3-6 sorted and i am snagging as they go along.

It could be a month for the 2nd deposit request, or it could be 3 months. The trouble is, that this is the most complcated OO train produced and is detail ridden, and feature packed and it needs to be right. 

Glad theres a starbucks downstairs and i'm off for some caffiene.

Hope your well?
cheers
Dave

 

[Ouroborus]

I'm guessing the first asset to be sold off was his spell checker

[Shropshire Lad]

29 minutes ago, sammmm said:

I wonder how this fairs for the Shark brake van , been collecting the Dogfish's in anticipation of it..maybe its time to buy the NGS kit  

As the tooling exists I'm hoping that the Sharks will now actually make an appearance.

[Lochnagar]

Sad, but I saw this coming. The rumours that some tooling was unpaid for and was up for sale may have held water. Hopefully the damage is kept to a minimum.. and that people used their credit cards and will have some comeback on retrieving their hard-earned funds. On a personal level I have never supported crowdfunding just incase something like this happens. 

 

Hope some or all of you guys get your money back.  

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

China doesn't really "do" intellectual property, so the chances are that any designs will eventually pop up under a different label.  DJ could sue the distributor and get an injunction banning the sale of any stolen designs in the UK, but that takes big money for IP lawyers. 

 

As an analogy, Brompton Bicycle successfully did this when Neobike (who had access to the technical drawings) produced unauthorised clones of their product in Taiwan, but Brompton Bicycle has fairly deep pockets.  I believe the clones are still sold in overseas markets where there is little realistic prospect of suing Neobike.  There is, of course, little market for OO gauge British outline railway models outside the UK.

 

 

 

 

Be it in the hands of  Cg &Co as a 'company doctor', administrator, or liquidator a potential problem area would be sorting out the situation with Chinese factories as they might turn out to be creditors and there might be little or no proof of who owns what in resect of such things as tooling.   As far as using a CAD to produce tooling the critical thing will be who owns the .STL file - at which point 'ownership'/IP of a CAD, especially a CAD which wasn't finalised to production standard, would I  suspect become more or less irrelevant.  The same goes for tooling where there could well be - as appears to have been the case in the past - a dispute with the factory in respect of who owns it or is able to use it.

 

We don't know how complex (or not) this entire situation might be and equally we have only ever heard one side of the story regarding the dispute (or whatever it was?) with a previous factory used by DJM.  So whatever role(s) C.Gregg is taking on, or might be progressing through, I reckon it will involve some complexities in respect of potential assets and those complexities might not be easily resolved (or resolved in a manner which is satisfactory to all parties) and it will take time to reach a conclusion.

Edited June 5, 2019 by The Stationmaster
correct name of CG & co

[159220]

T&C shall be all important and archive.org is your friend. I have collected some examples which might help those making claims to their bank, CCC or insurer.

 

Sept 2014 they were simply: 

 

Quote

Pre-order / Expression of interest

Welcome to the ‘order’ page, which for the time being isn’t anything of the kind!
Please feel free to place your ‘order’ which will only be taken as an “expression of interest” and DJM will not treat it as a binding transaction.

However, once the product is available for distribution, I will mail you and ask if you are still interested in it. At this point you can say ‘no thanks’, or ‘yes please’.

If ‘yes please’ then I will send you an automated PAYPAL invoice or give you a link to pay by credit or debit card. Your payment notification will then be sent to you, and our distribution specialist for immediate dispatch.

If ‘no thanks’ then all your details will be fully deleted.

At no time will your details ever be passed to third parties, or held on file past the product available notification.

Full terms and conditions will be published prior to transactions in compliance with the law for online sales.

Many thanks
Dave

 

Around the launch of the 92, a archive says: 

 

Quote

Pre-order / Expression of interest

Welcome to the ‘order’ page, which for the time being isn’t anything of the kind!
Please feel free to place your ‘order’ which will only be taken as an “expression of interest” and DJM will not treat it as a binding transaction.

However, once the product is available for distribution, I will mail you with a Paypal invoice for your choice or choices of product. This invoice can easily be cancelled by clicking the cancel button on the invoice request. I will be notified by Paypal that this is a cancellation and will remove all information about your ‘expression’ from my system.

Your ‘Expression of interest’ only becomes a binding transaction once you pay the invoice.

At no time will your details ever be passed to third parties, or held on file past the product available notification.

Many thanks
Dave

 

Seems to suggest that the deposit is a binding transaction without any T&C on the website at this point. 

 

Importantly, stated here on the 28th September 2016 the deposit is announced as £30 without any T&C here: https://web.archive.org/web/20161016112236/http://djmodels.co.uk/

 

Quote

With this in mind I will start invoicing those who expressed an interest within 24 hours, for the initial deposit of £30.00 per locomotive.

 

Interestingly, on announcing the King in N on 7th April 2017, it is stated clearly that the deposit is non-refundable:

 

Quote

How much?
Crowdfunding cost per locomotive £135.50 (no limit to the amount of Kings the crowdfunder can purchase.

RRP for loco when on sale in other guises £159.95

Payments for each model will be in stages if crowdfunding meets the amount needed to make project viable.
only then will deposit invoices be sent out…..
Initial deposit £30.00 (this is non refundable)
then 1st EP tooling deposit £50.00 (non refundable)
lastly the remaining total plus £8.00 shipping = £63.50 (non refundable)

Please note the funds are non refundable due to the nature of the crowdfunding and the tooling needing £100,000.00 So please only put your name down if you are serious about owning what will be a fantastic model. Payment by credit card is recommended.

No invoicing is done until or unless the minimum amount of Crowdfunding is reached for this model.

 

Today they are (which have changed a lot):

 

Quote

Pre Orders

Please Note: Any ‘pure’ crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (All payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering.

Pre-orders at this time can require either an ‘expression of interest’ with no first payment or a first payment which will be invested in design, cad/cam, advertising, tooling etc, and as such will be spent to develop the model accordingly.

 

I could go on, but I suggest those who know when they ordered use https://web.archive.org/web/20170615000000*/http://djmodels.co.uk find the relevant T&C to giving their deposit and use this to consult with your bank or consider small claims. Good luck! 

[dpgibbons]

DJM's T&C's are unlikely to be relevant to a credit card or chargeback claim as in these situations you are claiming under your contract with the finance company. 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by dpgibbons

[DavidH]

55 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

C.Gregg

 

 It's CG&Co, at Greg's Building. There's nobody called C.Gregg :-)

Edited June 4, 2019 by DavidH

[letterspider]

Hattons are selling DJM Class 92's on pre order

[BR Blue]

Hattons do not take any money up front. 

[Tomsontour]

Not gonna lie if this happening, which does look likely I'm gutted. I'm not massively worried about losing the deposit for the king, it's more an emotional disappointment. I was getting it for my uncle who has sadly now passed away, and would have liked to have had his favourite loco running on my layout, as it can't run on his. 

 

I think what anyone who is bringing out new models to the scene, or building a current business, is communicate with your customers, and don't try to run before you can walk

 

Yours a very disappointed matt 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Phil Parker
Swearing

[GWR-fan]

I am sure that if it was a simple change of address then Dave would have quenched the fires yesterday.  A failing business is a heavy emotional burden so in the midst of all this remember that Dave is a fallible human being who really does need some emotional support at this time regardless of the circumstances.

[pheaton]

7 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Edit misread Colins post

Edited June 5, 2019 by pheaton

[Markwj]

So what should happen next will Dave be the one to email everyone and let them know what has happened with suggestions on how to get their money back through the credit card company or should it be the company his business is now registered with to sort all that out?

At the moment all this is speculation with no official announcement from Dave himself although I agree all the signs are there and look bad.

[Roy Langridge]

I am gutted, not so much at the financial loss, but at the likely non-appearance of a new APT.

 

What also worries me is the impact that this and the issues with the Little Loco Company will have on the business models of the likes of Revolution Trains. Despite their impeccable behaviour to date, I am sure there will be some people who now stay clear of crowdfunding completely, possibly impacting their future business.  

 

This the second time I have had my fingers bitten on crowdfunding (out of two attempts) - I am unsure it is ever a route I will take again.

 

Roy

[grahame]

7 minutes ago, Markwj said:

. . . email everyone and let them know what has happened with suggestions on how to get their money back through the credit card company . . .

 

There's a thread about reclaiming for credit card payers. But what about those who paid by cheque, debit card, PayPal, bank transfer, or whatever? I feel very sorry for those people.

 

G

[Phil Parker]

As soon as we know anything from the company handling this about monies paid to DJM, it will be posted here. Until then, there is no point in speculating.

[Jonboy]

37 minutes ago, Markwj said:

So what should happen next will Dave be the one to email everyone and let them know what has happened with suggestions on how to get their money back through the credit card company or should it be the company his business is now registered with to sort all that out?

At the moment all this is speculation with no official announcement from Dave himself although I agree all the signs are there and look bad.

 

Unlikely as (if it is administration) then the administrators will take control of the company and all assets, including customer databases (which could be valuable in the past, not so sure now with Gdpr) on behalf of all creditors, and Dave may find himself in trouble if he is deemed to have acted against the best interests of all creditors, (not just customers with payments on account).

 

[Oldddudders]

Given that China now seems to be the consumer-durable factory to the world, it seems unlikely that DJM is the first UK enterprise to fall on hard times and have complicated links to China re IP etc. There may be more experience of insolvency practitioner dealings in such matters than we imagine, and some sort of knowledge-base may have already developed. 

[Ryde-on-time]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

I am gutted, not so much at the financial loss, but at the likely non-appearance of a new APT.

 

What also worries me is the impact that this and the issues with the Little Loco Company will have on the business models of the likes of Revolution Trains. Despite their impeccable behaviour to date, I am sure there will be some people who now stay clear of crowdfunding completely, possibly impacting their future business.  

 

This the second time I have had my fingers bitten on crowdfunding (out of two attempts) - I am unsure it is ever a route I will take again.

 

Roy

I don't see a big impact with Revolution trains as I think they have established their reputation for delivering what they promise . They initially worked with an a known manufacturer, communicated effectively and products have been delivered within a reasonable timescale (not really the case with DJM). They were also known and experienced within the hobby 

 

I hope it does make people stop and consider the risk before jumping in and supporting new ventures. If a model is announced that is appealing, it should be remembered that it needs  more than enthusiasm and positive spin to produce it, it needs a multitude of business skills 

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

I am gutted, not so much at the financial loss, but at the likely non-appearance of a new APT.

 

What also worries me is the impact that this and the issues with the Little Loco Company will have on the business models of the likes of Revolution Trains. Despite their impeccable behaviour to date, I am sure there will be some people who now stay clear of crowdfunding completely, possibly impacting their future business.  

 

This the second time I have had my fingers bitten on crowdfunding (out of two attempts) - I am unsure it is ever a route I will take again.

 

Roy

 

With Little Loco Company, the guy is seriously ill and has no energy for the work required. It remains to be seen if it will be taken over and such things take time to negociate behind closed doors. On these projects, you really need a 3rd independent party whom plays a responsible role (the devil's avocate). And whom can pick up the pieces in case the main player has to drop out. This is still not 0 risk but it does mean a fall back plan exists just in case. The trade off is slightly increased cost to the crowd funder.  Revolution has an excellent reputation and are working with others of excellent reputation. But this could damage people to invest in other new comers we have seen arrive recently.

 

[Revolution Ben]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

What also worries me is the impact that this...

...will have on the business models of the likes of Revolution Trains. Despite their impeccable behaviour to date, I am sure there will be some people who now stay clear of crowdfunding completely...

 

Roy

 

Hello Roy,

 

We've seen no evidence of any appreciable impact so far, but admittedly it's early days.  Certainly following the bizarre DJM IP statement on May 1st we saw a surge of orders for our 92 in N after reopening the order book.

 

My view is that crowd-funding is just another way of raising funds - like re-mortgaging your house, applying for a bank loan, offering a share issue, taking venture capital or even borrowing from your aged aunt.

 

What you do with those funds is business management.

 

I am absolutely certain that without crowd-funding there would be no N gauge Pendolino now.  The Pendolino production run was barely 1500 units.  For us that was a success - for a major manufacturer looking for minimum runs of around 3000 units it would have been a disaster.

 

I am very sorry for those who *may* have lost money (as far as I am aware we don't know for certain that anyone has yet) but it's my view that if there are problems they are not down to the funding of crowds, but the capabilities of individuals. 

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Ben A