DJM, the end.

[truffy]

I agree with Ben. This is more a reflection on a one man band with limited business nous than on crowdfunding per se.

 

FWIW, I would support a RevolutioN crowdfunding if it was of interest to me.

Edited June 5, 2019 by truffy

[letterspider]

8 hours ago, BR Blue said:

Hattons do not take any money up front. 

 

No but they do take pre orders on the back of which DJ Models could have decided early on the viability of the project in subsequent stages. Here seems to be disparity between what was being offered to the crowdfunding customer and the retailer - certainly as far as risk is concerned. 

 

 

[Littlethorpe]

10 hours ago, Shropshire Lad said:

As the tooling exists I'm hoping that the Sharks will now actually make an appearance.

 

Let's hope so; I have 2 on pre-order with Hattons. I do have a couple of NGS kits which I put on hold when DJM announced their version. Another run of Mermaids would be welcome.

[Legend]

I don't see why Crowdfunding should be affected by this . The key words as Ben A has pointed out above is "Business Management" . There is no reason why a properly run scheme should not succeed. However this was spectacularly lacking in DJM , as evidenced by the various T&Cs brought out by 159220 above.  No doubting the enthusiasm , but I think it ran away with him and the project management and business acumen just wasn't there to support it .  Nevertheless I wish him well . Its a crappy thing for those that lost money (if indeed that is the case), but its also devastating for him.   But there's a world of difference between RevolutioN and DJ, and I'm sure most people on here recognize that.

[njee20]

41 minutes ago, letterspider said:

 

No but they do take pre orders on the back of which DJ Models could have decided early on the viability of the project in subsequent stages. Here seems to be disparity between what was being offered to the crowdfunding customer and the retailer - certainly as far as risk is concerned. 

 

 

The Hatton's orders came later, originally it was a pure crowdfunded venture, and the Hatton's locos were different running numbers IIRC, presumably just a case of bolstering the order book. It had already achieved viability by the time Hatton's came on board.

 

It would be inappropriate of Hatton's to withdraw them from pre-order at the moment anyway as there's no definitive confirmation yet of the state of play. The silence is increasingly deafening though!

 

I certainly hope that Revolution (and other brands who have proven crowdfunding can work) are unaffected by this. I have the utmost faith in them, and have backed a number of projects and will continue to do so. As Ben says it's the management of the funds that is crucial, rather than how they are procured. I would certainly have been worried for them if the worst happens and it had been before Revolution were better established, but I think their reputation speaks volumes, and whilst a few people may now shy away from crowdfunding (we've seen people in this thread saying as much) I would hope they are very much in a minority.

Edited June 5, 2019 by njee20

[chris p bacon]

12 minutes ago, Legend said:

I don't see why Crowdfunding should be affected by this . The key words as Ben A has pointed out above is "Business Management" . There is no reason why a properly run scheme should not succeed. 

 

Until the first project is part way through there is no way of knowing the skills of the person/company asking for the funding. People take too much on trust in this hobby presuming that a 'mate' wouldn't treat them badly or mislead them.

 

At present there is another 'crowdfunded' project from an unknown quantity that has so many red flags flying for me it looks like a May Day parade. It has a lot of unanswered questions regarding delivery and ongoing suport, is without a completed CAD and yet it is already asking for the 2nd of 3 payments which funders seem happy to pay.

[Vistisen]

33 minutes ago, Legend said:

I don't see why Crowdfunding should be affected by this . The key words as Ben A has pointed out above is "Business Management" . There is no reason why a properly run scheme should not succeed. However this was spectacularly lacking in DJM , as evidenced by the various T&Cs brought out by 159220 above.  No doubting the enthusiasm , but I think it ran away with him and the project management and business acumen just wasn't there to support it .  Nevertheless I wish him well . Its a crappy thing for those that lost money (if indeed that is the case), but its also devastating for him.   But there's a world of difference between RevolutioN and DJ, and I'm sure most people on here recognize that.

I suspect that one on the major differences between funding a project that runs over a couple of years by borrowing from a bank and crowd funding is the amount of time that you have to spend reporting on progress to your financial source. I don’t expect the bank wants to discuss the quality of CAD designs in smallest detail!

I think that one reason DJM creates so strong reactions for and against stems from the euphoria there was at the dawn of the company. Dave was (rightly or wrongly) perceived to be the man behind Dapol’s Class 52 which became a ‘group project’ for large number of people who felt they had contributed to tweaking the end result. DJM in their expectations would be a company where they could be heavily involved in the design process, especially as they were crowd funding it.

If you read some of the threads on RMWEB you can see how these expectations were met by DAVE with lots of early publicity about dreams and draft designs. I suspect that he underestimated how much time this PR would steal from the day to day running of the company.  I once tried to be self employed ( in IT), I rapidly found that I did not have enough time to both sell my skills, and use my skills to create profit, I decided to stop quite quickly, and have never regretted the decision.

Dave decided at some point to stop posting on RMWEB. This may have been a necessary step to free up time from managing PR to other jobs, But it was a disappointment for all those who had bought the dream of being part of the process, and led to the polarisation of expectations that we have today. It’s very sad.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Vistisen
spelling

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

I am gutted, not so much at the financial loss, but at the likely non-appearance of a new APT.

 

What also worries me is the impact that this and the issues with the Little Loco Company will have on the business models of the likes of Revolution Trains. Despite their impeccable behaviour to date, I am sure there will be some people who now stay clear of crowdfunding completely, possibly impacting their future business.  

 

This the second time I have had my fingers bitten on crowdfunding (out of two attempts) - I am unsure it is ever a route I will take again.

 

Roy

I see that Ben A has commented and I am of course 100% supportive of his views and comments.  The critical thing to consider with any crowd funding operation is how it is organised and the record of success , or otherwise, of those running the process.  In my view there are some important differences which anybody looking at a crowd funding purchase/investment should consider because in the end it comes down to trust and confidence.   There is a considerable difference between an  established 'one man band' manufacturer having to use crowd funding instead of ordinary financial routes to continue and develop an existing business and a group of individuals with diverse talents running an operation - such as Revolution using a known manufacturer who has a particular level of reputation to produce the models they are funding.

 

There is a big difference too between a new entrant building up his/her business from a small starting point (e.g Little Loco Co.) and a manufacturer who has been established for some time.   Gaining capital to start off is one thing but it is quite another when an established business turns to apparently relying on crowd funding instead of its own financial resources.   And again there is a difference - as the unfortunate situation at Little Loco has shown - between a 'one man band' operation and a team effort (even when technical help is brought in) if the person running the project reportedly suffers health problems or indeed any other problems.

 

I appreciate that these comments more rightly belong in the crowdfunding thread  (where many of them have been discussed in the past) but I think they are also relevant in the context of Roy's question. 

[Phil Parker]

Can I suggest that any discussions on crowdfunding and the risks involved are taken to this thread:

Let's keep this channel clear for DJM information and updates please.

[Legend]

4 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

 

Dave decided at some point to stop posting on RMWEB. This may have been a necessary step to free up time from managing PR to other jobs, But it was a disappointment for all those who had bought the dream of being part of the process, and led to the polarisation of expectations that we have today. It’s very sad.

 

As I understand it he was asked to take out a banner ad to help in financing of site , but refused to do it . Andy please correct me if wrong .   I suspect that RMWeb was his principal way of contacting customers and promoting products, so seemed a bit short sighted.

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

 

As I understand it he was asked to take out a banner ad to help in financing of site , but refused to do it . Andy please correct me if wrong .   I suspect that RMWeb was his principal way of contacting customers and promoting products, so seemed a bit short sighted.

 

But he was still taking out advertising in BRM so he was providing funds back to support the company that runs this site.

 

But as Phil asks, let's keep on topic.

[dogbox321]

Hi all, latest news....

 

The other week I e-mailed to ask for an update on Class 92 and APT (fortunately had never repaid my money on this one), and never received a reply.  With all the tom-tom drums over the last couple of days, I have tried calling DJ Models on the mobile number on the website to get something first hand.  Tried twice and checked the mobile number - both times automated reply from a mobile phone company telling me that I have dialed an incorrect number! 

 

Regards,

 

C.

[njee20]

The PDF of the change of address is now available on Companies House - it's signed by Jonathan Avery-Gee, a Partner at CG&Co, who is "widely regarded as one of the most experienced insolvency practitioners in the North West of England" according to their site.

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Ben A said:

 

Hello Roy,

 

We've seen no evidence of any appreciable impact so far, but admittedly it's early days.  Certainly following the bizarre DJM IP statement on May 1st we saw a surge of orders for our 92 in N after reopening the order book.

 

My view is that crowd-funding is just another way of raising funds - like re-mortgaging your house, applying for a bank loan, offering a share issue, taking venture capital or even borrowing from your aged aunt.

 

What you do with those funds is business management.

 

I am absolutely certain that without crowd-funding there would be no N gauge Pendolino now.  The Pendolino production run was barely 1500 units.  For us that was a success - for a major manufacturer looking for minimum runs of around 3000 units it would have been a disaster.

 

I am very sorry for those who *may* have lost money (as far as I am aware we don't know for certain that anyone has yet) but it's my view that if there are problems they are not down to the funding of crowds, but the capabilities of individuals. 

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

I hope you are right Ben. I would hate to see the hard work that you have all put in be damaged by another's inability to deliver. I am not surprised you saw an uptake in orders, has N gauge been my scale, I would have done likewise.

 

For sure, crowdfunding has opened the door to opportunities that would not have otherwise existed. There have, however, been a number of high-profile failures recently (not just in our model rail domain) and I do wonder if we will see limits from some financial companies, such as the credit card companies?

Good luck, and hoping any impact you do see is small. 

 

Sorry - replied to Ben before I saw Phil's email. I will now comment elsewhere.

 

Roy

Edited June 5, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Ed-farms]

https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ Digitrains are saying DJM are in receivership and cancelling the King George V Model

Edited June 5, 2019 by Phil Parker
Clarity

[Covkid]

On 05/06/2019 at 08:22, Ben A said:

 

Hello Roy,

 

We've seen no evidence of any appreciable impact so far, but admittedly it's early days.  Certainly following the bizarre DJM IP statement on May 1st we saw a surge of orders for our 92 in N after reopening the order book.

 

My view is that crowd-funding is just another way of raising funds - like re-mortgaging your house, applying for a bank loan, offering a share issue, taking venture capital or even borrowing from your aged aunt.

 

What you do with those funds is business management.

 

I am absolutely certain that without crowd-funding there would be no N gauge Pendolino now.  The Pendolino production run was barely 1500 units.  For us that was a success - for a major manufacturer looking for minimum runs of around 3000 units it would have been a disaster.

 

I am very sorry for those who *may* have lost money (as far as I am aware we don't know for certain that anyone has yet) but it's my view that if there are problems they are not down to the funding of crowds, but the capabilities of individuals. 

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

And after all Ben, you should know.

In my view crowfunding is mostly about trust.

 

Does the project manager have trust that enough backers will make the project success. 

Does that person or team trust the designers to "get it right" and for the factory also to deliver he product.

Does the project manager trust that all monies will be forthcoming and end up in the correct accounts

 

Most importantly - do the crowdfunders have trust that their investment will turn into the items they are buying.

 

In the case of your pendolino Ben, you took a huge leap of faith, which I believe just about paid off.  I hope you managed to sell the last few, but it is perhaps an indication that even if it is a modern "everyday" train you expect would sell well, even that does have a limited market. What does that say about an APT-P which ran on BR for a fairly short period of time.

 

Crowdfunding definately can, and does work, but the project needs to be run properly.  

Edited June 6, 2019 by Covkid
typos

[RedgateModels]

6 minutes ago, Ed-farms said:

https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ Digitrains are saying they are in receivership and cancelling the King George V Model

 

Well I think that answers the question posed in the title of this topic .....

 

Sad day all round

[Ravenser]

 

Quote

 the hobby will be a little poorer as a result of this regrettable situation.

 

Given the amount of crowd-funding potentially at stake that could be the understatement of 2019. If DJM are indeed entering receivership, liquidation, or administration , the size of any resulting financial hole left behind will be one of the main points of interest/concern, since in this case it will fall on the hobby at large. It might take any liquidator/administrator some time to establish what monies are still held and where , and what has been spent - entirely legitimately - on fruitless development work

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

That sounds as if they have received something official this morning. At least those ordering via him should see a refund. As Digitrains are my current main supplier for DCC decoders I did not want to see them become "collateral damage" in any DJM saga. Nor did I wish to see Accurascale or RevolutioN damaged by any legal threats over the 92

 

Digitrains having refunded customers does not mean Digitrains are unaffected by this business failure.

 

Were they holding the deposits to release when the model was produced or did they remit the deposits to DJ Models to enable tooling of the model to begin.

 

If it was the latter then Digitrains joins the group of creditors waiting to see what if any assets there are.

[RedgateModels]

I can see Digitrains taking on the King as I've said before - another well established retailer about to take the same Kernow/Rails/Hatton's leap?

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Digitrains having refunded customers does not mean Digitrains are unaffected by this business failure.

 

Were they holding the deposits to release when the model was produced or did they remit the deposits to DJ Models to enable tooling of the model to begin.

 

If it was the latter then Digitrains joins the group of creditors waiting to see what if any assets there are.

 

I've just spoken to Digitrains. They were very pragmatic about the money and aside from having to refund it, which is happening now, they are fine. 

[Phil Parker]

I'm told there will be an announcement from Dave on his website at 7pm today.

 

Until that point, I'm locking this thread as I don't see any benefit in an afternoon of speculation or guesswork. Once we have some hard information, I'll unlock it.

 

Thanks

[Phil Parker]

9pm - Still nothing so far. In the absence of any new facts, I'm leaving this locked and will have a look in the morning.

[Phil Parker]

6:30am - Still nothing. I have been approached by a couple of people confirming this news but nothing that anyone is willing to be quoted on. I think it would be unfair to report rumours so will wait for an official announcement.

[AY Mod]

Link to appointment of liquidators notification - https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3296157

 

Link to resolutions for winding up notification - https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3296156