DJM, the end.

[atom3624]

Some of the advanced OO projects would be near-perfect additions for the likes of Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann, Heljan ... wouldn't they?

 

Just a thought.

 

If the liquidators are trying to optimise - limit - losses - it would make sense to sell off the IP rights where able as well ...

 

Perhaps as mentioned earlier, yet more Hattons Specials ....

 

Al.

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, Chris M said:

 

I see it as a big loss to the hobby, especially for those of us involved in N gauge. Not so much DJ Models but Dave Jones, the designer, is a keen N gauge supporter.

 

I must defer to you in relation to the impact on N gauge, though I wonder whether the loss is more theoretical than actual, given how little seems to have made it off the drawing board in the last couple of years (see the Stationmaster's comments above).

 

Quote

 

As I understand it, he played a significant part in the design of a number of excellent Dapol models.

 

 

He played a part in the design of a number of Dapol models.

 

Dapol's recent re-entry into the OO gauge market seems to be on firmer ground.

 

Quote

 

I hope he might end up being in a position to design more models in the future, but it is probably best if he does this working for someone else's business.

 

I confess, I don't.  I realise that sounds harsh in a time of trouble, but for me there is no getting away from the reality that there was more often than not a gap between ambition and achievement, even where product was finished, and I do not see why that would change.  In OO gauge there were some real horrors produced among the retail commissions that I'd hate to see repeated.

 

I take your point, though.  Rather than run a business, perhaps Mr Jones would thrive doing design in a role free from wider business concerns.  That evidently did not satisfy him in the past, as he had such a role and left to set up his own business.  He may have revised that ambition now, of course. Unfortunately, there is probably plenty of design talent out there, so I am not certain that another manufacturer would take a risk on hiring Mr Jones.  Nevertheless, I hope for his sake that he does find some means of earning a living.

[jjb1970]

I may be the nasty one here but I don't see this as a loss to the hobby in any way. Other better managed companies capable of delivering product will continue to serve the market, most of what DJM did was to abstract money in the form of deposits that could have been spent in other more useful and productive ways. The word hindsight has been mentioned, the impending demise of the company has been pretty obvious for a long time, for at least the last year any rational review of company behaviour and performance would have led people to conclude that it was not a case of if but when it would all collapse.  

I would have more sympathy perhaps if Dave Jones hadn't made a habit of smearing Chinese factories with some really rather distasteful comments which appealed to those with a liking for cheap stereotyping, accused Revolution of trying to entice him into joining them in illegal collusion, just blamed his accountant and Web designer for the complete shambles of his accounts and website, made a habit of trying to pee on other manufacturers by pre-emption news and announcements, made allegations about former commissioning clients and broken handshakes etc. Do I take pleasure in seeing a company go bust? No, but neither do I see a reason to eulogize a company whose influence on the hobby I would describe as baleful. 

[5944]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The somewhat delayed production samples of the Kernow 1361s arrived in September 2017 according to an AY post on RMweb; the Hattons48XX/14XXetc production samples had arrived at the same destination in December 2016 according to another AY post.  As far as I know these were the last completed commissioned loco models to be delivered via DJM as an intermediary between the commissioner and the factory.  

 

The crowdfunded (originally Kickstarter) Class 71s arrived in May 2017 after a production delay and J94s were about in August 2016, again judging from posts on here.

Thanks, I knew the 14xx was before any DJM own brand stuff appeared, but I hadn't realised the 1361 was a little bit later. Even so, that means in nearly two years all he's managed to produce is a few CAD drawings and a 3D print of a King, plus a lot of announcements. 

[spikey]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think the direction the tooling is heading, was already decided last December. 

Daves been trying to secure/preventing it.

 

Remember the manufacturer took the unprecedented step of surfacing on the forum.

 

Good grief!  I must have missed that.  Can some kind soul please point me in the direction of the relevant post(s)?

[philiprporter]

I consider my APT-P deposit long gone now and bear no ill will to DJ Models for that financial loss as I knew the risk. I hope that Dave himself is getting the care and support he will obviously need right now. What has made me angry however, has been the lack of transparency, the missed milestones, the bizarrely public washing of laundry over the website (amongst other things), the schoolboy like excuses for the numerous delays etc. I'm most angry with myself however for being far too trusting and naive-being brutally honest I was absolutely seduced by the thought of a OO gauge APT and that over-rode rational judgement even when it was very clear relatively early in, for example, the class 92 thread, that red flags were being waved. I read that thread and ignored my inner nagging voice! The absolute passion for our hobby has a lot to answer for here! 

[adb968008]

51 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Good grief!  I must have missed that.  Can some kind soul please point me in the direction of the relevant post(s)?

Page 43/44 of the class 92 thread contains the residue.

 

the page starts with a now prophetic post about design IP, follows with a very interestingly placed post by a member of several years but only 8 posts and an now deleted response by a member, whom reached out directly to some of us, and who quite emphatically stated his position, and intentions of the tooling.

 

Sadly some members made fun of him, and he withdrew , but not before confirming his identity the following day. He's confirmed offline of the forum too.

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by adb968008

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 04/06/2019 at 12:58, DavidH said:

 

 

These contradict each other.

 

Indeed they do. It is Woodenhead that has got it right.

[7013]

This is indeed sad news, Dave Jones has always been passionate about model railways, he was a founder member of the Banbury club to which I belong. Lets not forget that when he was with Dapol he had a superb relationship with modellers and often consulted them on new models. His venture into DJModels promised much, there were always doubts as to whether he could produce all that was promised, and indeed he cancelled some models because they were announced and were quicker to the market than his. I bought a CL71 and aside from the well documented slow top speed (never an issue for me as I tend to run mine on freight) it is a pretty good model. Sadly the writing was on the wall some time ago and it transpired that Daves business accumen was not up to his enthusiasm.

It is unfortunate that many people who, like me thought Dave was a breath of fresh air have lost money and are now bitter. I did not crowdfund (and never will) so I have no financial loss, I also think it is sad that people use this bad news to turn the knife. I am sure Dave is feeling pretty sick at present and instead of berating his efforts we should be supporting him as a community and hope that his talents are not lost to this hobby. OK he may not run his own company again but he would be an asset to any manufacturer if his pre DJModels track record is taken into account. Lets not get carried away with the villification and remeber there is a pretty broken man at the moment.

[DavidH]

49 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Good grief!  I must have missed that.  Can some kind soul please point me in the direction of the relevant post(s)?

 

It's already been answered.

Edited June 7, 2019 by DavidH
Re-read pages

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 04/06/2019 at 13:28, woodenhead said:

I guess this is where we find out what happens when a crowdfunding initiative fails, there has been a lot of debate.

 

My experience of working for a Credit Card issuer was that Section 75 claims were resisted unless it was a travel company collapse.

 

I can't see that having changed much in the 30 years since I was doing it so expect some resistance when the claims first go in.

 

Indeed, Section 75 claims are resisted, especially in a case like this.

 

Threaten them with a referral to the Financial Services Ombudsman. That will cost them far more so they will then usually pay up.

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

Some of the advanced OO projects would be near-perfect additions for the likes of Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann, Heljan ... wouldn't they?

 

Just a thought.

 

 

Al.

Advanced in what way? Which models?

 

nothing has gone to tooling for a few years and by his own admission, CADs are still incomplete / imperfect. Some are niche models so a part finished CAD is unlikely to be of much value elsewhere 

[Roy Langridge]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Trust me, to have told you so at the time would have been a very unhealthy thing to do!

 

And who would have listened? 

 

Besides, the posthumous beatification of a failed business isn't much help to anyone either. 

 

It is a regrettable state of affairs, but it's done now.   

 

But instead you choose to wait until now and ignore the Mods request for no "I told you so" posts...

 

Roy

[lyneux]

9 minutes ago, 7013 said:

OK he may not run his own company again but he would be an asset to any manufacturer if his pre DJModels track record is taken into account. 

 

Really?

 

If it were me I think there are plenty more talented modellers/designers out there that I would go to first.

[GNR Dave]

Sad news. 

Must admit, Dave had a stand at the N Gauge South East show in Purley a few months ago which I thought had all the appearance of a going out of business 'fire' sale. I didn't say anything at the time, but it now makes more sense.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, truffy said:

 

Presumably, that's the job of the liquidator, to maximise the value of the assets.

 

Theoretically, yes.

 

Sadly my experience of insolvency practitioners is that they are only interested in getting enough value out of the assets to pay their own fees.

9 hours ago, truffy said:

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

While I do have some sympathies for Dave,  one important question will have to be answered at some point in the future, was Dave trading insolvent? In a newsletter in late April,  the website was extolling the updates on the APT and even stating that you could still purchase further models.

 

Quote from the April 26th newsletter on the APT updates.  "....... If you are thinking of purchasing a second or even third APT, even if it’s just to sell on e-bay or for a model railway club friend, please feel free to, and remember you will still be able to do so at the lower ‘crowdfunded’ price.' (End quote).

 

Perhaps Dave considered the APT as the magical Phoenix that would rescue him from financial oblivion,  but surely by late April the writing would have been obvious that the company was in severe financial trouble.  Were further deposits received after this date?

 

"Trading while insolvent" is quite a technical issue in accountancy terms. I was involved, representing creditors, in such a case a few years ago. To me, it was blindingly obvious that the company had been trading while insolvent. The insolvency administrators had not even considered it! In the end, it was the director/owner's action in continuing to trade while insolvent that made him personally liable and some money recovered directly from him to pay creditors.

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But instead you choose to wait until now and ignore the Mods request for no "I told you so" posts...

 

Roy

 

What I do not think you have quite grasped is that a lot of people feel essentially unimpressed by DJ Models' antics, and not a few aggrieved, and that, therefore, the more you try to defend the indefensible the less likely you are to succeed. 

 

It has not been easy, or even at times possible, to express reservations about this company and its output, especially where this potentially affects the reputation and/or sales of DJ Models' commissioners.  RMWeb has a tradition of being supportive of the trade, which, in general, is no bad thing, but this militates against criticism and, indeed "telling you so" at the time.  It seems to some of us that it has simply not been possible until now to achieve some level of frankness concerning this business.  

 

So long as comments are measured and do not get personal, it's probably best to let matters be aired by way of a safety valve. The Mods can, and have, shown themselves quite capable of deciding when to close that valve, they could do so at any time, and probably do not require assistance in reaching a judgment as when that is. 

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

 

What I do not think you have quite grasped is that a lot of people feel essentially unimpressed by DJ Models' antics, and not a few aggrieved, and that, therefore, the more you try to defend the indefensible the less likely you are to succeed. 

 

It has not been easy, or even at times possible, to express reservations about this company and its output, especially where this potentially affects the reputation and/or sales of DJ Models' commissioners.  RMWeb has a tradition of being supportive of the trade, which, in general, is no bad thing, but this militates against criticism and, indeed "telling you so" at the time.  It seems to some of us that it has simply not been possible until now to achieve some level of frankness concerning this business.  

 

So long as comments are measured and do not get personal, it's probably best to let matters be aired by way of a safety valve. The Mods can, and have, shown themselves quite capable of deciding when to close that valve, they could do so at any time, and probably do not require assistance in reaching a judgment as when that is. 

 

But your initial posts came over all "I could have told you so" and gloating in tone. A lot of DJ's antics that you mention have come long after some people had made commitments.

 

At the point that I committed, and with the initial appearance that this was a DToS led commission, and that it would only commence once sufficient orders existed, the risk was low enough for me. The fact that things changed thereafter, such as a move away from the project by DToS,  were not foreseeable to me.

Roy

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

 

I take your point, though.  Rather than run a business, perhaps Mr Jones would thrive doing design in a role free from wider business concerns.  That evidently did not satisfy him in the past, as he had such a role and left to set up his own business.  He may have revised that ambition now, of course. Unfortunately, there is probably plenty of design talent out there, so I am not certain that another manufacturer would take a risk on hiring Mr Jones.  Nevertheless, I hope for his sake that he does find some means of earning a living.

 

There is no doubt about it. DJ has technical skills and he also has some (although perhaps not enough) experience of working with manufacturers in China.

 

So I have every hope that other folk who want to launch new models will turn to him to help them. They can do the "management" and leave him to do the things he is good at.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But your initial posts came over all "I could have told you so" and gloating in tone. A lot of DJ's antics that you mention have come long after some people had made commitments.

 

At the point that I committed, and with the initial appearance that this was a DToS led commission, and that it would only commence once sufficient orders existed, the risk was low enough for me. The fact that things changed thereafter, such as a move away from the project by DToS,  were not foreseeable to me.

Roy

 

Nothing to gloat about in this debacle. I don't believe anyone would

 

 

[chris p bacon]

11 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

There is no doubt about it. DJ has technical skills and he also has some (although perhaps not enough) experience of working with manufacturers in China.

 

After past factory moves and disagreements and now the possibility that one or more factories could be creditors, would the Chinese wish to work with him ?

[Darius43]

13 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Nothing to gloat about in this debacle. I don't believe anyone would

 

 

 

Methinks Lord Percy would think you were gloating.

 

Darius

[JSpencer]

18 minutes ago, GNR Dave said:

Sad news. 

Must admit, Dave had a stand at the N Gauge South East show in Purley a few months ago which I thought had all the appearance of a going out of business 'fire' sale. I didn't say anything at the time, but it now makes more sense.

 

Indeed just 2 months ago (6th April). He did an annoucement a few days before offering many personal items for sale. But the same announcement also had updates on many projects with the King and 92 being tooling imminent. That suggests that he might have known someone somewhere was about to pull a plug and maybe his rush to China mid May to solve something must have been required to right the ship again.  He did not do the dirty deed of asking second payments but equally I don't understand why he kept taking on more projects over the past year or so, when it seemed to be coming very clear to outsiders (let alone himself with figures to hand) that he had serious issues delivering them.

On the other side, he had a bunch of spares made and paid sitting around his place for the past few years and he never got them on sale. You cannot have money sitting idle in business especially if there is little else out there to bring revenues in.

 

[Richard E]

Let's keep this on topic please - it is sad to see how this has ended. So much promised and many people, including myself, let down.

 

The biggest loser will be Dave himself, I doubt that any borrowing from the banks will have been possible without a directors guarantee and, as such, he stands to lose his house and all his personal assets. Indeed he could well come out of this as a bankrupt. Very nasty for him and I feel that we, despite any anger or upset folk feel, should have some sympathy for him in this.