DJM, the end.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Damo666 said:

I risked £30.

If what you (Zoopla) estimate is correct, he's risked his:

Family house.

Lost his business

Damaged his reputation

and severely hampered his employment in this industry.

 

It's happened. Nothing here will change the history of DJM, and nothing here will influence the outcome to make it different.

I think we need to give the guy a break.

 

 

There is a significant concern on my part that kicking a dead dog is not the most noble endeavour, and, believe it or not, the sooner I stop kicking it, the better I'll like it.  There were, however, things that probably needed to be said, not least because DJ Models enjoyed a virtual immunity from criticism for a long period, despite there being quite a lot going wrong, with products not perhaps at the standard they should have been and commissioners evidently becoming disillusioned.  As I said above, it seems that only now can we approach the subject of this business and its products with some level of frankness. Perhaps there was an over-protective attitude to DJ Models in the past that has done the company no favours in the long run. There has certainly been a sort of collective catharsis in the reaction to this debacle.  

 

If you want to see a particularly straight-talking  post, see JJB1970's Post.  At time of writing 50 community members have registered support for it.  I do not see any of these people as wrong for taking that position. And I'm certainly not going to suggest they should not feel as they do or that those posting should shut up. 

 

Barring any developments or any further attempts to muzzle opinion or to misrepresent or vilify contributors, I'm not inclined to continue to go over the ground again once trod.  On the other hand, I am not going to take that 'I've had my say so there is no need to keep discussing it' attitude one sometimes sees.  If people still have something to say, provided the usual decencies are observed, they should be able to say it. Fortunately it's not up to any of us here how long this goes on. I note the somewhat Olympian disdain for this thread, but I think that, having sown the wind by the lack of permissible discussion of this manufacturer in the past, there might be some responsibility for the whirlwind.    

 

The course of contributions has shown that it is hard to separate the business, the flaws of which cannot sensibly be shielded from criticism, and the individual behind it, who is deserving of sympathy.  I make this last point with some warmth because I have made a number of poor judgments in my life that have had impacts comparable to that which might now face Mr Jones,  If so, Mr Jones may face consequences the severity of which are disproportionate to any criticism that may be made of him. Having probably reached the nadir, I can only wish him well in rebuilding from there.      

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[DavidH]

1 hour ago, Damo666 said:

If what you (Zoopla) estimate is correct, he's risked his:

Family house.

 

That depends how the money was invested in the company? It is a limited company so he would only be liable to what he had invested or guaranteed to the company.

 

If the house wasn't collateral for the company or Dave hadn't taken money out of the company other than as a salary, I think he would only find his house at risk if he or partner were unable to keep paying the mortgage.

 

At least, I hope that is the case.

Edited June 7, 2019 by DavidH

[Legend]

35 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

 

Apparently he is due to send his CV out in "the next few days"

 

Sorry I was a bit slow on the uptake . I wondered if you had been in contact, then it dawned on me!

 

If he does one, I hope he gets a third party to give him some counsel .

[Oldddudders]

A long time ago, when I think RMweb was still owned and paid for by Andy Y, a well-informed member and I were chatting over a pint. The chap had recently met Dave Jones, then firmly a Dapol employee, and had distinct reservations about him. At the very least, he found him 'rum'.

 

It cannot have been much later that a retailer who had commissioned several important projects from Dapol spat his dummy when he found not a lot had been done about them. Soon afterwards Dave Jones emerged, now no longer a Dapol employee, as the man to rescue these lost causes and deal with China etc. In fairness, I think he did so, even if the delivered products didn't all quite hit the heights for every purchaser. So I was prepared to believe his re-invention was a success. Yet after a few years that business relationship foundered, as did that of DJ with another major retailer.

 

Now this.

 

I think my informant knew a thing or two. 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

17 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 I note the somewhat Olympian disdain for this thread, but I think that, having sown the wind by the lack of permissible discussion of this manufacturer in the past, there might be some responsibility for the whirlwind.    

 

 

I am not sure that it was "lack of permissible discussion of this manufacturer in the past", rather that DJ is rather like Marmite, people either loved him and what he was or hated it. Any discussion just end up in back and forth point making, often off topic, that actually contributed nothing. Eventually the order would come to get back on topic.

 

Pretty much where I think this thread is going. Depending on when people got involved, how much risk they took, whether the loss is a big hit for them or not, their situation is very different. As I posted earlier, I ordered on the basis of it being a DToS order, nothing at that time indicated to the contrary other than that DJ was manufacturing the model and was excited by it - nothing particularly wrong with that.

 

I am sorry if you thought my comment earlier was intended to "muzzle opinion or to misrepresent or vilify contributors", that was not my intent - rather to indicate that you had, in my opinion, crossed a line drawn by a Moderator. It seems Phil has since indicated that such discussion is now permitted in this thread. I am not sure what will be achieved by that, but fire away...

Roy

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, DavidH said:

 

He did say this, and it was repeatedly used on here to silence critics. But it depends what everyone thinks his house is worth. According to Zoopla the house is worth around £100k. Still not what crowdfunders may have risked on the company.

Also if you looked at the value a few years back it was rather less than that and the early accounts did not indicate there were any creditors of the sort of magnitude to equate with even a part value of the house.  However we might be erroneous in thinking that a loan had been taken out against the address used as the company address.

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

I see there is a post on the Crowdfunding thread from a few hours ago.

 

  5 hours ago, brittannia said:

also PayPal representative said he was unaware of any repayment order and that DJM's account was still open,

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

I did go hunting.  The quality and tone of DJM communications made me uncomfortable, so I decided to see whether it was me being unduly suspicious, or whether there was an issue. 

 

I didn't have to dig far, a couple of hours on various forums and I had enough information to inform my thoughts on this matter.

 

It was definitely not hindsight, just caution and what turned out to be an appropriate level of scepticism.

 

I have read and re-read this thread and I have come to the conclusion that for a lot of us, were blaming the wrong person, which is ourselves.  I too stumped up the £30 deposit for a Class 92 but I blame myself for not doing like Dr Gerbil-Fritters and done my research regarding DJM.

 

I had seen several other models that DJM had produced and to be honest, though good, I felt others that made similar models, they just had the edge.  With the Hornby Class 92 the only game in town (for now), if I wanted a better quality version, I felt I had to opt for the DJM version.

 

Durham Trains of Stanley must have had faith in Dave and DJM, and I must applaud them for taking on such a ambitious project.  It really annoys me when venom is directed at them for DJM’s failure.

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There were, however, things that probably needed to be said, not least because DJ Models enjoyed a virtual immunity from criticism for a long period, despite there being quite a lot going wrong, with products not perhaps at the standard they should have been and commissioners evidently becoming disillusioned. 

 

I am not sure that is fair. I think that there was a lot more criticism and negativity here on RMWeb than on other forums such as the NGF. You only have to look back at past threads in this sub-forum to see DJM received its fair share of "constructive feedback". Even at the start when people were willing to cut him some slack as a new start-up, the term "vapourware" was bandied around almost immediately.

 

I don't plan to get into the rights or wrongs of that, just point out that Dave certainly had no immunity from criticism here and I never got the impression the Mods were doing anything to clamp down on his detractors. In fact I suspect that the criticism he did receive was a deciding factor in his decision to reduce his posting here considerably.

[Roy Langridge]

13 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

Durham Trains of Stanley must have had faith in Dave and DJM, and I must applaud them for taking on such a ambitious project.  It really annoys me when venom is directed at them for DJM’s failure.

 

Indeed, I am sure that they are as fed up, if not more so, than us. That said, I have not seen any "venom" towards them.

Roy

[Phil Parker]

10 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am not sure that is fair. I think that there was a lot more criticism and negativity here on RMWeb than on other forums such as the NGF. You only have to look back at past threads in this sub-forum to see DJM received its fair share of "constructive feedback". Even at the start when people were willing to cut him some slack as a new start-up, the term "vapourware" was bandied around almost immediately.

 

I don't plan to get into the rights or wrongs of that, just point out that Dave certainly had no immunity from criticism here and I never got the impression the Mods were doing anything to clamp down on his detractors. In fact I suspect that the criticism he did receive was a deciding factor in his decision to reduce his posting here considerably.

 

It's funny, because you see the same sort of criticism on other parts of RMweb. If you like Manufacturer A then you see and remember criticism levelled at them. If you prefer Manufacturer B, then you want to know why there isn't more criticism levelled at Manufacturer A and any attempt to calm things down is seen as a gross infringement of your freedom of speech.

 

Mods can't always get things right, but sometimes we watch rants spiralling with ever more vicious statements being made and have to damp things down a bit.  All forums are tribal, especially this one.

[Ravenser]

There are two key questions now:

 

- How much money is the hobby at large going to lose over this?

 

and secondly:

 

- What went wrong, and what are the warning signs of those things?

 

I have no interest in kicking Dave Jones while he's down,  but he certainly won't be the last crowd-funding promoter in model railways, and we really don't want this sort of failure happening over and over again

 

So it isn't really the case that what went wrong is none of our business, or that "were there signs and what were they?"  is unreasonable raking through the entrails of someone's misfortune. I've now become aware of another situation where sizeable payments are involved (nothing at all to do with Dave) , and it disconcerts me.

 

I don't want anyone hurt - but by the time of the notorious announcement it was really taking some heroic optimism to see all the DJM projects being successfully delivered , and in some cases the only scenario for that seemed to involve DJM stepping over someone else's body. If the projects weren't all successfully delivered then clearly there was going to be a large financial loss, spread over many people.

 

 However to have stated such a view plainly would have been seen by many as an attempt to bring down DJM by starting a panic amongst crowdfunders. So everyone went on making pious optimistic statements about DJM coming good in the end.

 

DJM didn't.

 

Dave Jones was in many respects "the King of Crowd-funding". It may be better to have the discussion about "when crowd-funding goes wrong" and when a project is dangerous and should be avoided in the context of the post-mortem of a known failure , with several real examples to dissect - rather than as a discussion about some other project which might in fact be viable

 

P.S. On several occasions Hornby were blamed by some quite sharply for announcing new models which clashed with DJM projects, and it was suggested that Hornby should drop their models to clear the way for the DJM project. That view now looks to have been mistaken

Edited June 7, 2019 by Ravenser

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

There are two key questions now:

 

- How much money is the hobby at large going to lose over this?

 

and secondly:

 

- What went wrong, and what are the warning signs of those things? 

 

And there is a thread for this:

 

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am not sure that is fair. I think that there was a lot more criticism and negativity here on RMWeb than on other forums such as the NGF. You only have to look back at past threads in this sub-forum to see DJM received its fair share of "constructive feedback". Even at the start when people were willing to cut him some slack as a new start-up, the term "vapourware" was bandied around almost immediately.

 

I don't plan to get into the rights or wrongs of that, just point out that Dave certainly had no immunity from criticism here and I never got the impression the Mods were doing anything to clamp down on his detractors. In fact I suspect that the criticism he did receive was a deciding factor in his decision to reduce his posting here considerably.

 

It may depend on the particular product, and there were only certain ones I was closely interested in.  Certainly my impression was that there were sensitivities surrounding retail commissions.  Once the product was tooled, criticism of the 14XX was somewhat discouraged.  The point being is that it could no longer be constructive. There was something of a spat over the Gate Stock, I don't think anyone here got close to listing what was wrong with that.  I have some sympathy with the need to protect the commissioners' investment, and they don't want bad news when they need to recoup tooling costs on that vital first run.  This does sometimes seem to lead the industry and press to assume a certain Nelsonian blindness to some of the issues at least in public.  The degree to which there were issues is suggested by the sequel, however, both commissioners dealing direct with the factories for their next projects.    

 

Things can get tribal, but I mainly notice this in the form of people following a manufacturer like a football team and resenting any criticism of it. 

 

Models should be judged on a case by case basis. There is only one manufacturer that I have found consistently bad, and it's not DJ Models, and, even then, nothing would please me more than to see a model from it that bucked the trend and that could be celebrated.  With DJ Models I was impressed with what was promised and said about the approach to accuracy.  I backed the King over Hornby's and had I think 8 or 9 on pre-order at one stage.  I looked hungrily for news of new product and for updates on the Hudswell Clarke. 

 

From the sounds of things, in common with many, mine was a progressive disillusionment and loss of faith in DJ Models.  I do think it does members a disservice to characterise criticism of DJ Models as tribal, which implies that it is a pre-determined unreasoning prejudice.  I suspect most contributors have extended the benefit of the doubt to DJ Models, some in the form of money, for as long as possible and now judge as they have found, and not because of some partisan bias that they are assumed to have.

[Roy Langridge]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

It may depend on the particular product, and there were only certain ones I was closely interested in.  Certainly my impression was that there were sensitivities surrounding retail commissions.  Once the product was tooled, criticism of the 14XX was somewhat discouraged.  The point being is that it could no longer be constructive. There was something of a spat over the Gate Stock, I don't think anyone here got close to listing what was wrong with that.  I have some sympathy with the need to protect the commissioners' investment, and they don't want bad news when they need to recoup tooling costs on that vital first run.  This does sometimes seem to lead the industry and press to assume a certain Nelsonian blindness to some of the issues at least in public.  The degree to which there were issues is suggested by the sequel, however, both commissioners dealing direct with the factories for their next projects.    

 

Things can get tribal, but I mainly notice this in the form of people following a manufacturer like a football team and resenting any criticism of it. 

 

Models should be judged on a case by case basis. There is only one manufacturer that I have found consistently bad, and it's not DJ Models, and, even then, nothing would please me more than to see a model from it that bucked the trend and that could be celebrated.  With DJ Models I was impressed with what was promised and said about the approach to accuracy.  I backed the King over Hornby's and had I think 8 or 9 on pre-order at one stage.  I looked hungrily for news of new product and for updates on the Hudswell Clarke. 

 

From the sounds of things, in common with many, mine was a progressive disillusionment and loss of faith in DJ Models.  I do think it does members a disservice to characterise criticism of DJ Models as tribal, which implies that it is a pre-determined unreasoning prejudice.  I suspect most contributors have extended the benefit of the doubt to DJ Models, some in the form of money, for as long as possible and now judge as they have found, and not because of some partisan bias that they are assumed to have.

 

I think the main problem comes when some people go over and over the same ground, relentlessly pointing out the faults over and over, sometimes even going so far as to question others decision to buy said model.

Roy

[Phil Parker]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

I think the main problem comes when some people go over and over the same ground, relentlessly pointing out the faults over and over, sometimes even going so far as to question others decision to buy said model.

 

Best summed up by the phrase:

 

"You've hit the nail on the head, now stop hammering."

 

[two tone green]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

A long time ago, when I think RMweb was still owned and paid for by Andy Y, a well-informed member and I were chatting over a pint. The chap had recently met Dave Jones, then firmly a Dapol employee, and had distinct reservations about him. At the very least, he found him 'rum'.

 

It cannot have been much later that a retailer who had commissioned several important projects from Dapol spat his dummy when he found not a lot had been done about them. Soon afterwards Dave Jones emerged, now no longer a Dapol employee, as the man to rescue these lost causes and deal with China etc. In fairness, I think he did so, even if the delivered products didn't all quite hit the heights for every purchaser. So I was prepared to believe his re-invention was a success. Yet after a few years that business relationship foundered, as did that of DJ with another major retailer.

 

Now this.

 

I think my informant knew a thing or two. 

 

 

Good post. 

[Edwardian]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

I think the main problem comes when some people go over and over the same ground, relentlessly pointing out the faults over and over, sometimes even going so far as to question others decision to buy said model.

Roy

 

Which tends to happen when their posts are mischaracterised and they feel obliged to set the record straight each time.

 

As I said earlier, I'm done kicking the dead dog. 

 

I've zero interest in either kicking, or being kicked by, you, and if you hadn't woken up this morning as the Terminator (who absolutely will not stop) , this topic could have benefited by being several posts shorter. 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

 

Which tends to happen when their posts are mischaracterised and they feel obliged to set the record straight each time.

 

As I said earlier, I'm done kicking the dead dog. 

 

I've zero interest in either kicking, or being kicked by, you, and if you hadn't woken up this morning as the Terminator (who absolutely will not stop) , this topic could have benefited by being several posts shorter. 

 

 

WTF? That was not aimed at you so why that reply. Go re-read what I said, it was part of the discussion going on.

Roy

[newbryford]

 

I can see the keys jangling now...…………..

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

 

I can see the keys jangling now...…………..

 

I see handbags being waved. Please stop it.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

WTF? That was not aimed at you so why that reply. Go re-read what I said, it was part of the discussion going on.

Roy

 

Roy, if that wasn't aimed at me (and, I confess, I did wonder), then please disregard what I said.  Perhaps, given our exchange this morning and the fast moving nature of this topic, my mistake was understandable, but, as mistake it was, then my reply should be disregarded.  

 

I really, really, don't want to argue, so I'm glad you clarified the situation.   No hard feelings on my part. 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Roy, if that wasn't aimed at me (and, I confess, I did wonder), then please disregard what I said.  Perhaps, given our exchange this morning and the fast moving nature of this topic, my mistake was understandable, but, as mistake it was, then my reply should be disregarded.  

 

I really, really, don't want to argue, so I'm glad you clarified the situation.   No hard feelings on my part. 

 

 

 

None here either - I apologised to you a few posts ago about any misunderstanding this morning. In the above post I was just generally discussing why there is a perception that some manufacturers are criticised, some not so much - when as Phil pointed out it is not generally true.

 

Edit: Phil - you can put the keys away again ;-)

 

Roy

Edited June 7, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Edwardian]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

None here either - I apologised to you a few posts ago about any misunderstanding this morning. In the above post I was just generally discussing why there is a perception that some manufacturers are criticised, some not so much - when as Phil pointed out it is not generally true.

 

Roy

 

A genuine misunderstanding, so talk of reticules in motion is premature.

 

Now I must apologise.  I was confused by your comments, but you had quoted my post as you made them, so I assumed I was the target. I had evidently missed some of the discussion. Grateful you cleared that up.

 

I am sorry that I did not see your apology of this morning, but thank you.

 

Generally happy for peace to break out and that no dead dogs were kicked in the typing of this post.

 

 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

 

Generally happy for peace to break out and that no dead dogs were kicked in the typing of this post.

 

 

Heavy inference there that some live ones were

Roy