Popular Post Ravenser Posted June 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) I am frustrated to see Hornby being blamed in this thread. Hornby have provided a huge amount of RTR trade support to OO over many decades. They have done so with their own money , over many years, at no financial risk to the rest of the hobby . They manage to deliver their announced models within 12-18 months, pretty well every time One factor in the DJM saga - which must have damaged the business - was Dave Jones' habit of trying to target Hornby's products. There is a very marked contrast between the projects he was involved with for Kernow and everything else when it comes to the choice of subject. The Kernow models were all things that nobody has ever done before - interesting niche prototypes that hovered just beyond the wish-list top 30 and opened up new possibilities. Because Kernow's choices have been imaginative , they have sold - and they haven't faced competing models. Dave on the other hand - . Frankly he seems to have seen the Hornby range as a big joint from which he could carve juicy slices for himself at will. (And then people blame Hornby for competing with him and say Hornby should have handed him the carving knife and said "Help yourself!" ??) Commissions aside, DJM delivered a J94 (already in the Hornby range), a Class 71 (also being done by Hornby) and an N gauge Mermaid wagon. It's not a lot, and opened up almost no new possibilities for us. Contrast Hornby's efforts since 2013... Peckett anyone? Sentinel? coaches? IEP. Am I being cynical in suggesting that the main reason the Hudswell Clarke DJM announced was not pursued is because it wasn't already in Hornby's range...? J94, King, 71, Q6, APT , 92. All in the Hornby range , all announced by DJM in OO. If he'd produced a J94 that ran as well as the Hornby Peckett , the Dapol B4 or the Hattons P he'd surely have had a winner.... And notice how - since they parted company with Dave - Hattons have also been announcing things that are novel - the SECR P, the Barclays, etc. Things that run well, whereas Dave's locos seem all to have a mechanical question mark or reservation hanging over them. then you look at the DJM list in N - 92, Shark, King, APT, J94, Pendolino, Q6, 59, Flying Banana. All of them subjects in the Hornby OO range. It was remarked during Dave's time at Dapol that Dapol seemed to do in N what Hornby had recently done in OO. Even to the point that people started speculating about some kind of linkage. Well - I think the linkage was Dave Jones: "I'll have a slice of that!" Notice also the way DJM tried to spin N gauge models or DJM out of OO commissions for others (King, LSWR Road Van) I do think that if Dave Jones had found his own subjects, based on prototypes that hadn't been done he might have done rather better. Targeting things where part of the demand had been satiated years ago does not seem to have served him well. Almost everything Dave announced was duplicated. It's not a co-incidence. It was part of his style, and I don't think it served him well (Is it really an accident that he managed to clash with Accurascale over the HUO, 92, and announce Mk5s in N after falling out with them?) So please - don't lay into Hornby over any of this. They have delivered, in spades - Dave hasn't P.S. : I strongly suspect that if the DJM J94 and the Hattons/DJM 14xx ever re-surface - and it's a big if - they will have completely new chassis under them Edited June 8, 2019 by Ravenser add PS 5 25 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir TophamHatt Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 On 07/06/2019 at 09:37, MarshLane said: I was intending to stay quiet on this subject, as it has all the potential to fall into the usual pit of assumption, guesswork and opinionated rubbish, but given that I am privy to some inside information, I feel that some things need to be said in order to create a ’straight record’. In saying that, please note I am not breaking any confidences with this post. I appreciate that everyone will have their own views some of which will be right, and some which will be wrong, some will take the following on board, others will dismiss or try to pick-it apart, but I would make it clear, that in no way, will I expand on, or reply further to anything contained within this response, so please do not ask. If you're only giving tidbits of information, may as well not bother. Your secretive post is only going to fuel assumptions and guesswork further. Sorry for the neg, just pointing out the elephant. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) There are several things we can, I think, be reasonably sure of - 1. We don't know the cashflow position in DJModels or its financial situation or have any real idea - thus far - of what prompted the company seemingly being unable to meet payments to creditors 2. We don't know who any major creditors are (although it seems generally agreed by those who understand such things that crowdfunders are also creditors but individually the amounts might be small in relation to money owed to a large creditor). 3. We don't know why Dave decided to go for Creditors Voluntary Liquidation but we do know it is not a Compulsory Liquidation which in turn has certain implications, but we don't know how they affect this particular liquidation. 4. We haven't got the faintest real idea what Dave will personally lose in financial terms as a result of the liquidation notwithstanding suggestions of various things which might or might not be involved; we know nothing beyond what was shown in the micro accounts etc and often conflicting statements posted online, 5. But we assume that Dave will lose a personal income as a consequence of the liquidation of the company as well as, most likely, an adverse impact on his reputation within our hobby and a hard blow to his pride. 6. We don't know what unencumbered assets the company had but we do know that there has been a past dispute with a factory in respect of DJM 'own label' tooling and various other work, 7. And we therefore don't know what will happen to any DJM 'own label' tooling in consequence of Item 5. 8. We don't know who, if anybody, apart from the liquidators might benefit financially in some way or other from the liquidation (yes, that does happen). 9. We know that DJModels as a brand is probably a dead duck unless somebody takes it over (if there are actually any unencumbered assets to take over or if the name is sold on?) We have had from various members of this forum more than a few comments about various aspects of the way in which the company was run and whether or not those contributed to its financial state of health and ultimate liquidation. But that also goes back to the unknowns in my Item 1 where we simply don't know what precipitated the end. Possibly at some time in the future we might gain further information which explains why the company ended its life in liquidation, or we might not. For info (again) https://www.gov.uk/liquidate-your-company Edited June 8, 2019 by The Stationmaster Add link re liquidation 9 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 I must have blinked and missed the Hornby bashing - I'm a big fan of Hornby, don't let anyone tell you otherwise - and am at a loss to see how they are the baddies here. What you say about selecting Hornby targets is interesting and reminded me of the mission statement of DJ Models, which I will quote before it disappears into the ether (emphasis added): Hello and welcome to my website. Some of you will know me by my past endeavours with a well known model railway company, but really I should use this space to tell you about myself. I’ve been a modeller since I was a very young lad with an OO gauge Hornby loco on an oval of track stuck on a door for a Christmas present. Subsequently nurtured by my dad, my skills became better, to such an extent that when I switched to N gauge around 1975 I started, as a 10 year old, exhibiting my layouts up and down the country. In 1982 I won the inaugural ‘Prime Ministers Cup’ as the best under 18 modeller in the country. Subsequently I made architectural and loco models as a small business until around 2005 when I was asked my opinion on a new N gauge class 73, and the rest as they say, is history. So why do this now? Well for some time I have felt that there can be a large step change again in quality, reliability, detail and features on current N, OO and O gauge locomotives and rolling stock. Unlike some critics on web forums, I decided to put my money where my mouth is, literally, and go it alone with this venture. It will not ever be a huge range, but what I will say is that whatever I produce, it will have all my hallmarks on every model,. To get a better understanding of my experience, please look here for the models and innovations i am solely responsible for…. I have always understood this to be an intention to out-do established manufacturers, and a logical way to do this was by picking a subject already in their catalogue. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 28 minutes ago, Ravenser said: P.S. : I strongly suspect that if the DJM J94 and the Hattons/DJM 14xx ever re-surface - and it's a big if - they will have completely new chassis under them That would be nice. Put me down for one of each for starters. How about I put down a deposit now and get billed for instalments as and when work progresses? 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 @Ravenser it's interesting you pick up on Dave's choices of Hornby models. During his time at Dapol there were persistent rumours of Hornby sharing cads with Dapol as a few of Dapol's N models were recent introductions in the Hornby stable. Maybe his strategy picking off Hornby models started here, safe in the knowledge Hornby wasn't about to enter the N market and that was carried forward in DJM guise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Edwardian said: I must have blinked and missed the Hornby bashing - I'm a big fan of Hornby, don't let anyone tell you otherwise - and am at a loss to see how they are the baddies here. What you say about selecting Hornby targets is interesting and reminded me of the mission statement of DJ Models, which I will quote before it disappears into the ether (emphasis added): Hello and welcome to my website. Some of you will know me by my past endeavours with a well known model railway company, but really I should use this space to tell you about myself. I’ve been a modeller since I was a very young lad with an OO gauge Hornby loco on an oval of track stuck on a door for a Christmas present. Subsequently nurtured by my dad, my skills became better, to such an extent that when I switched to N gauge around 1975 I started, as a 10 year old, exhibiting my layouts up and down the country. In 1982 I won the inaugural ‘Prime Ministers Cup’ as the best under 18 modeller in the country. Subsequently I made architectural and loco models as a small business until around 2005 when I was asked my opinion on a new N gauge class 73, and the rest as they say, is history. So why do this now? Well for some time I have felt that there can be a large step change again in quality, reliability, detail and features on current N, OO and O gauge locomotives and rolling stock. Unlike some critics on web forums, I decided to put my money where my mouth is, literally, and go it alone with this venture. It will not ever be a huge range, but what I will say is that whatever I produce, it will have all my hallmarks on every model,. To get a better understanding of my experience, please look here for the models and innovations i am solely responsible for…. I have always understood this to be an intention to out-do established manufacturers, and a logical way to do this was by picking a subject already in their catalogue. We were seeing allegations that the Hornby 71 was a "spoiler" (despite it being a Kent subject) and dark speculations about the J94 When we had the last "step change" it came on subjects that were new . Hornby's breakthrough was the Merchant Navy - that hadn't been available RTR before. For Bachmann it seems to have been the 24 and WD - again, novelties. The Mk1s targeted a model that was 30 years old, and Bachmann quickly went far beyond (Triang-)Hornby in the types of Mk1 offered. Most of Hornby's pre-nationalisation coaches had never been done in any form before.A lot of the step-change came with prototypes that had been the preserve of the kit-builder till then (Think Rapido Stirling Single..) Heljan's prototype Deltic was eye-opening, and they picked off most of the Silver Fox kit range. . DJM didn't do any of that. Its always been recognised that the "upgrade" route is a little narrower than the new model route - because some of the market won't upgrade. The mechanical difference between a Hornby Ringfield with partial pickup and a Bachmann centre-drive was huge. I've always felt it was the step-change there was the big driver of new diesel locos, and the bunfights over detail were a side issue. The Lima Deltic was substantially too short, had HO bogies and a ringfield with 2 wheel pick up on each side. Things like that were sitting ducks. No such sitting ducks existed in 2013. And whereas Bachmann were retailing locos at around the £60 mark in the 1990s and into the current century, DJM was operating in the £125-175 bracket in more austere times. "Upgrading" has become expensive Not only did Dave not deliver on the reliability front, but he didn't really deliver a noticeable step change in detail or features either. He was up to the mark set by Bachmann, Hornby and Heljan but not higher. The Gate stock was not to a higher standard than Hornby's accustomed level. And when those words were written there was no RTR Gauge O I think The statement "it will not ever be a huge range" is moderately ironic in all the circumstances, as is the statement that rolling stock would feature. I note that the liquidation announcement describes DJM's business as making model locomotives. Like a lot of modellers Dave seems to have been loco-centric 5 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ravenser said: The statement "it will not ever be a huge range" is moderately ironic in all the circumstances, Perhaps not quite as ironic as: 'I expect to be able to give better communications, sales service, after sales service and back up than any of the current manufacturers today.' 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stannard Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, Edwardian said: On a point of information, as a former director of an insolvent company, Mr Jones would face legal restrictions on the re-use of the name, or a sufficiently similar name. There are exceptions. I highly doubt he will return to running a business in the hobby given whats gone on, if he was to do so it would most likely be as a silent partner or in the background out of sight. Given the circumstances there would be a fair degree of apprehension within the community when it comes to any future dealings with him which would make any comeback rather difficult to near impossible. I know that he did play a substantial part in his own demise, especially with the announcement on the 1st of May, but there were plenty of those who were quite happy to lay the boot in as he went down and pretty much ensured he would stay down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, woodenhead said: @Ravenser it's interesting you pick up on Dave's choices of Hornby models. During his time at Dapol there were persistent rumours of Hornby sharing cads with Dapol as a few of Dapol's N models were recent introductions in the Hornby stable. Maybe his strategy picking off Hornby models started here, safe in the knowledge Hornby wasn't about to enter the N market and that was carried forward in DJM guise. I know there were rumours. I'm now suspecting that - as you suggest - Dave looking at the Hornby catalogue and saying "I'll have some of that" was the real reason for that happening. There might have been a certain logic for Dapol then, given that N is a much smaller market - do in N what is proven in OO. But that starts to break down when you apply it to Heljan's range of niche subjects , like the 17 and 23. I also think he hoped to use R&D on OO models to generate a spin-of N gauge model at reduced development cost. One possible reason for the APT saga was that some of the development costs were supposed to be shared with an N gauge model that wasn't happening. But - it didn't work. We never saw an N gauge J94 - surely a better proposition than the Class 17 he developed to EP stage. An O gauge J94 might have sold well in 2015-6 - but he went chasing 92s , Pendolinos and APTs If DJM had delivered a J94 with a good mechanism , then followed up with a Hudswell Clarke , DJM would have been on the band-wagon that Hornby and Hattons have caught with their industrials. But that wasn't where DJM went Stand back from it. Which is the better commercial proposition : a good Hudswell Clarke in OO and O , or a £1000 APT in N and OO , available in formats up to 14 cars? But which one did Dave Jones put money and energy into? Would Dapol have ever done the 68 and the B4 with Dave chosing the subjects? Edited June 8, 2019 by Ravenser Remove "his" before money - the APT was crowdfunded 2 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 15 hours ago, Yorkshire Square said: Nearly, but not quite right. A CVL will be instigated by the directors and approved by the shareholders. The liquidator will, amongst other things, keep creditors appraised and where appropriate involve them in decision making. If you have made a £30 deposit on a model, he is unlikely to be seeking your opinion. An alternative is a Compulsory Liquidation which may be brought by a creditor (not a debtor - that is someone who owes money) who is owed over a certain threshold. In this instance there are various criteria to be met and the credit must make application to the courts. A CVL is often applied for by a company to forestall a Compulsary Liquidation application by a creditor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said: Perhaps not quite as ironic as: 'I expect to be able to give better communications, sales service, after sales service and back up than any of the current manufacturers today.' Oh I don't know. He promised what he said he wouldn't promise (35 projects) and delivered the small range (3 models) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 THE CVL of DJModels is being carried out under an appointed practitioner of Liquidation, under such an arrangement, the Director(s) of the insolvent company may purchase assets of the insolvent company subject to procedures by the practitioner. Therefore it may be possible for certain assets to be "rescued" so that DJ may live to fight another day, so, I am not giving up hope of future releases of the portfolio of models which were once DJModels. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 It’s always sad when a manufacturer goes under. Even if the signs was there. But I work in retail sales and if I was starting off I would pick an easy fruit that already complimented stuff that was already out there. The J94 was a good place to start long lived with multiple liveries, I then would've followed it up with the Hudswell Clarke tank, then I would’ve done a tender locomotive like a U class which would’ve complimented the Hornby range and it polls high on the wish list. After that I would start doing more niche stuff like the 71 etc. But hindsight is a wonderful after the dead is done. I do wish him well even if 2 out of 3 of my O2’s are erratic runners. Would I participate in crowd funding yes but it depends on the manufacturer. Big james 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2019 1 hour ago, woodenhead said: During his time at Dapol there were persistent rumours of Hornby sharing cads with Dapol as a few of Dapol's N models were recent introductions in the Hornby stable. I've wondered about this before. The Dapol B Set coaches have the same extra window as the old Airfix/Hornby ones, and the Dapol 9F is about a scale foot too wide over the cylinders, as is the old Hornby 9F. Odd coincidences. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 It will be interesting see whether any other manufacturer now persues the prototypes that DJM announced in that raft of initial publicity but never got near to producing. I'm thinking the Hudswell Clarke and the 0 gauge Austerity tank as prime examples for someone else to look at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Interesting that Nthusiast resprays are not mentioned in his self-written website bio? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2019 2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: T Possibly at some time in the future we might gain further information which explains why the company ended its life in liquidation, or we might not. For info (again) https://www.gov.uk/liquidate-your-company The creditors are entitled to that information and can insist that the liquidator holds a meeting at which the facts are presented. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post Legend Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) Why do people want DJ Models to live on another day? From what I can figure out he delivered the Austerity , 71 and 14XX but people aren’t impressed with chassis. The rest of it is promised updates that never happened broken promises etc . Let’s just move on . There are plenty other manufacturers out there that will take up the slack. Hornby, Accurascale, Revolution, Hattons, Kernow, to name a few . They have all delivered. The reality is you don’t need DJM, and in fact with his business track record, you really are better giving the business to those that are properly capitalised, have a business plan, communicate on time and regularly. I do do feel sorry for those that have lost money , and hope they can pursue it and get some back, but let’s not keep flogging a dead horse. It really would be best for him if he found something to do outside the field of model railways. He’s got too much baggage now . Really would anyone invest in a new venture of his? Edited June 8, 2019 by Legend Added the 71 that I forgot 4 33 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classy52 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Legend said: Why do people want DJ Models to live on another day? From what I can figure out he delivered the Austerity and 14XX but people aren’t impressed with chassis. The rest of it is promised updates that never happened broken promises etc . Let’s just move on . There are plenty other manufacturers out there that will take up the slack. Hornby, Accurascale, Revolution, Hattons, Kernow, to name a few . They have all delivered. The reality is you don’t need DJM, and in fact with his business track record, you really are better giving the business to those that are properly capitalised, have a business plan, communicate on time and regularly. I do do feel sorry for those that have lost money , and hope they can pursue it and get some back, but let’s not keep flogging a dead horse. DJM is certainly becoming an enigma, maybe that's why people are drawn to him and keep pushing the narrative that he can recover and once again deliver. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, classy52 said: DJM is certainly becoming an enigma, maybe that's why people are drawn to him and keep pushing the narrative that he can recover and once again deliver. He's not the Messiah....... 1 3 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, classy52 said: DJM is certainly becoming an enigma, maybe that's why people are drawn to him and keep pushing the narrative that he can recover and once again deliver. Drivel, wrapped in a mystery, inside an ego, as Churchill didn't say. 1 minute ago, woodenhead said: He's not the Messiah....... No, he's a .... 1 3 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Duncan. Posted June 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2019 I came across Dave Jones when I was Trade Liaison Officer for the N Gauge Society back in the 1990's. I received a large number of letters and telephone calls concerning money sent for models but no goods received, items returned and no refund and unable to contact (what at the time was) N'thusiast Resprays. (In fact the only business that I received more than one complaint) I made some enquiries and found suppliers who also had not been paid and had difficulty contacting Dave Jones. One supplier told me that he had given up any hope of being paid. (I believe that remains the case to this day). I also discovered that a list of excuses for non delivery then bear a remarkable similarity to those proffered over the last few years, basically blaming anyone else but himself. Frankly I did not believe any of these claims, and considered many to be complete fabrications. I was part of a team organising the 30th Anniversary exhibition for the NGS, and combined with my other role as trade liaison my brief was to arrange the trade attendance for the show. As the NGS was not in a position to persue the claims of members against Dave Jones , I could do no more than advise members to seek claims personally. However, what I could do and did was to bar Dave Jones from attending our 30th Anniversary show . There does appear from some of the replies in this thread that there is a deep trust in this man, I cannot share that view from my experience some 25 years ago. I believe trust has to be earned and is closely coupled to honesty, I found this lacking at that time and the recent developments do not surprise me at all. I am saddened for those that did trust the hype and have lost monies, I hope (but fear you won't) get some sort of refund. More widely I have been saddened for many years at the money given to this company (as I feared it would end this way) when (I model in N) the market for N is so small and I felt that other concerns had so much more to offer and were effectively losing possible funding to one which I could never support ( from my previous experience). So yes I guess that I could be open to critisism myself for not alerting others to my previous experiences, but would you have listened and would I have been trolled? The title of this thread is DJM, the end, I have to say I hope so, I can't feel sorry for Dave Jones but I do feel sorry for those that have been so badly let down and I hope that there is not another incidence of this type in the future. I will not be making further comment about this subject. Duncan 5 8 10 16 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 DJ Models website has now been altered: https://djmodels.co.uk/ 1 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) I personally feel that really the only thing that can be done is find some buyers for the J94, Class 17, Mermaid and Shark tooling (as far as I can tell that is all that exists) so those can continue to be available from a more reliable manufacturer, clear out any existing stocks of models, spare parts, etc to the trade and then call it a night. Whether that raises enough cash to make a dent in the debts who knows. One thing for certain, Dave would be wise to walk away from the industry and never return. But you just know he will.... EDIT - Just seen this page on his website: https://djmodels.co.uk/past-models What the hell was "Project X and Y"? Edited June 8, 2019 by John M Upton Astounded by the so called list of achievements I have just discovered! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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