DJM, the end.

[amwells]

6 hours ago, BR(S) said:

DJ Models website has now been altered:

 

https://djmodels.co.uk/

 

Though not all of it. The quote here should help depositors with our case:

 

https://djmodels.co.uk/delivery-information

 

‘If you have ordered your DJM model directly from this website, you are guarantee’d (sic) to receive your model once it and postage has been paid.’

 

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I don't think Dave Jones produced any CADs, they were done by the Chinese factories, the factories were providing pretty much everything, I think his input was (allegedly) project managing, providing prototype information to the factory and reviewing and approving the CAD and EP (those being the same factories he had a habit of accusing of various nefarious deeds). Which sort of begs the question of quite what he did to accord himself such laurels as a designer.?

 

The N gauge King was clearly a spin-off from the abortive Hattons OO King project. Whether anything was scanned in that, or whether works drawings were used I don't know.

 

I note that he credits himself both with the original design for the Beattie Well Tank, and the redesign when the project moved from Dapol. Not sure you should be boasting about your responsibility for a Mk1 design when it had to be replaced by a Mk2 version.... 

 

The Dapol 66 is notorious for the note in the box saying that you must oil it regularly or the mechanism will self-destruct. (I have 2, acquired as a freebee - long story). I recall the comment at the time about the FEA twins was that the OO version was much better than the N gauge one because the criticisms had been picked up. As this is one wagon I occasionally get to gawp at I suppose I should have a look at the models I own...

 

The Dapol 10000 was reckoned to be edged by the Bachmann one (I own a Bachmann one). Who was the Stove R a commission for? Who perpetrated the OO model? And what pray was the Ialnos wagon (And how can he claim an N gauge 23 when that never even reached the CADs?)

 

I don't recall the Prime Minister's Cup either. But it was when I was in Australia (I might have been in a perfectly respectable Sydney department store called David Jones at the time. Apparently it is noted for its use of models, though not of the kind supplied by DJM)

 

On the other hand, Maggie was not exactly known for her enthusiasm for railways (even if she bequeathed us the Speller Amendment and the Channel Tunnel). Grantham the Streamliner years I've seen, but the layout built in Number 10 based on the Barkston Triangle is  news to me….

 

Hmmmm

Edited June 8, 2019 by Ravenser

[Persephone]

41 minutes ago, njee20 said:

What's your point caller? Are you suggesting he made it up? Is that relevant?

 

Very relevant TBH. Jones makes Alastair Campbell look like a rank amateur when it comes to spin. It's about time some of the more vacuous claims were challenged and put into perspective. The hobby needs Jones back like it needs a hole in the head to be frank. 

[Covkid]

8 hours ago, lyneux said:

Interesting that Nthusiast resprays are not mentioned in his self-written website bio?

 

This is the ironic part of the history lesson.  Dave clearly had problems with N sprays / Nthusiast Resprays to the extent that the company ceased trading, with a number of customers apparently out of pocket.  But what did Dave learn from that business venture, that might guide him with DJM ?

 

Sadly it appears not a lot, Tax returns late, cockups with banking, adminastration issues and ultimately customers losing money / product.

 

As Dave proudly declares himself to be an enthusiast, would he really goose an even greater number of fellow enthusiasts investing in DJM, than with Nthusiast Resprays ?

 

I find it quite disappointing that so many people have lost money in this venture - really only for the sake of Dave employing some kind of manager to run his business properly. There is no doubt he had the ideas and dreams to produce nice marketable models, but surely his previous business experience should have taught him a few lessons in running a small company ?

      

 

[Simon Lee]

Been an active modeller in1982 both railways and plastic ships/aircraft, l have no recollection of the Prime Ministers cup. I would have thought DJ being an N gauge modeller the N Gauge Society would have been using the success to promote the scale.

One thing that did seem odd to me is that in one post he states he left Dapol to start DJM, then another that after he left Dapol he realised the only way forward was to start DJM,  sounds suspiciously like he was invited to leave and pursue other interests or have l missed something.

[zarniwhoop]

8 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

Yes instantly blocked, only those who can't see it will be allowed access thus only Mr McLeod will post at this stage me thinks 

I can't see it either (firefox-67 on linux).

[Amand]

6 hours ago, Simon Lee said:

One thing that did seem odd to me is that in one post he states he left Dapol to start DJM, then another that after he left Dapol he realised the only way forward was to start DJM,  sounds suspiciously like he was invited to leave and pursue other interests or have l missed something.

 

I seem to recall that there was some fallout hinted at here regarding Dave leaving Dapol, and in his words "it was a long story for another day." It sparked quite a reaction from Julia Adams who was posting on here back then. Don't think we got to hear that full story either.

 

To quote my music teacher from my end of year report "His enthusiasm is severely limited by his ability!"

[DavidH]

If only Julia was still on RMWeb to put the record straight.

[guzzler17]

7 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

This is the ironic part of the history lesson.  Dave clearly had problems with N sprays / Nthusiast Resprays to the extent that the company ceased trading, with a number of customers apparently out of pocket.  But what did Dave learn from that business venture, that might guide him with DJM ?

 

Sadly it appears not a lot, Tax returns late, cockups with banking, adminastration issues and ultimately customers losing money / product.    

 

Think you've forgotten the one about the ability to work with, or respect, other companies in the same line of business.  Won't say more other than there was at least one long-running "unhappiness" I know of in Nthusiast Resprays days.

 

8 hours ago, Covkid said:

As Dave proudly declares himself to be an enthusiast, would he really goose an even greater number of fellow enthusiasts investing in DJM, than with Nthusiast Resprays ?

As DJM "did" multiple scales surely that must be a Yes?

[Colin_McLeod]

On 07/06/2019 at 15:06, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

I see there is a post on the Crowdfunding thread from a few hours ago.

 

  5 hours ago, brittannia said:

also PayPal representative said he was unaware of any repayment order and that DJM's account was still open,

 

Strange.....

 

Unless of course the PayPal saga was just a made up story upon realising the magnitude of PayPal fees when  a few hundred people pay in three figure sums.  Purely speculation on my part. but now I am wondering if the "refunds and re pay by other means" was designed to avoid PayPal fees.  If so it backfired as it gave people the opportunity to drop out, coming as it did at more or less the same time that it took ages to submit micro accounts to avoid striking off. 

 

Maybe I am wrong as it is also possible that to protect privacy PayPal were not going to give out personal information to Britannia.

[DavidH]

Am I right that you can pay people using your PayPal balance, without incurring those fees? Maybe he discovered too late that the factory wouldn't accept PP for work done. Goodness knows why he didn't start the whole thing with a proper business account and secure payment online though, instead of coming to the idea far too late (well, it seems that way).
 

[Edwardian]

For me, at least, it is interesting in a disturbing sense, to hear what is only now coming out of the woodwork.

 

Mr Jones was very persuasive, or plausible, in setting up his stall and I was among the many persuaded.  My growing disillusionment stems from the fact that, while the message was consistently "this is all wonderful (and can't be questioned or criticised)" it began to seem clear that the business was not capable of delivering promised product to the higher standards claimed, or in a timely manner, or, indeed, at all.  This was certainly true of the product areas that interested me. 

 

The revelation that there was always something "rum" about this supplier, that a previous business failed leaving customers out of pocket, that ill-will was engendered with Dapol etc, etc, adds unpleasant colouring and it must be galling to those who lost money that no hint of this was evident before now. 

 

Usually I would be very cautious about such one-sided hearsay, but then, I reflect, DJ Models seems to have had the narrative all its own way for years and an alternative narrative, that the business was never really deserving of our trust and confidence, seems to be emerging with some quite credible witnesses coming forward.  I have hitherto tried to keep the personality separate from the business, but that is perhaps not possible with a one-man band, dependent upon one man's skill and vision.  Finally, having dug up the DJ Models website content, it struck me how "look at me, aren't I brilliant" the whole DJ Models narrative was.  There was a need for promotion of the business, of course, but there can be no denying that the proprietor's own preference was to put himself centre-stage at every turn as the warrant of the company's success. In the case of failure, that does put his personal credentials directly in issue, I'm afraid. 

 

Ravenser, in particular, has made some interesting observations.  Taking those and Amand's comment above, an alternative narrative is emerging of Mr Jones as a sort of fantasist, really believing that he could make all the announced models and really make them significantly better than the products of established manufacturers.  One suspects a genuine lack of critical self-awareness, with the proprietor's self-belief preventing any insight that he lacked  the necessary level of design skill or business acumen or, even, basic organisational capacity, to achieve the stated goals.  But a charismatic personality, fuelled by self-belief, draws people in.  The inability to deliver eventually exposes the inherent lack of realism and substance in the project and reaction sets in. In this narrative, the proprietor's self-belief, or ego, if you will, can only rationalise lack of progress and failure by blaming everyone else, despite the fact that he had everything going for him at the start, leading others to conclude the contrary, that he was the weakest link all along.

 

As ever, the truth may lie somewhere between this and conflicting narratives. Perhaps if decision-making had been better, or effort focussed in the right area, more and better product might have emerged, but, then, isn't than to cherry-pick the strengths and forget the weaknesses bundled up in a single personality?   In many ways, the fantasist narrative is not unsympathetic; Mr Jones is seen as his own worst enemy, deluding others only because he has first deluded himself.  It is at least a narrative that leaves Mr Jones with the virtue of sincerity, if misguided, in place of cynicism. Further, there is a gap between ambition and ability in many of us, so I find it hard to muster much moral indignation and condemnation in this instance.  That said, when such a personality runs a business and deals with other people's money, they can be a danger and, when spotted, best avoided thenceforth. I guess it's the old Nixon test; knowing what you now know, would you buy a second hand car from this man?  

[jjb1970]

If it was a private PayPal account and not a DJM business account then presumably it would be unaffected by the demise of the company. His issues with PayPal never rang true, the fact that they identified red flags and took action was to their credit however in the self serving alternative reality of planet Dave they were just another part of the axis of evil along with nefarious Chinese factories etc. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by jjb1970

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Amand said:

 

I seem to recall that there was some fallout hinted at here regarding Dave leaving Dapol, and in his words "it was a long story for another day." It sparked quite a reaction from Julia Adams who was posting on here back then. Don't think we got to hear that full story either.

 

To quote my music teacher from my end of year report "His enthusiasm is severely limited by his ability!"

 

It is too easy I know to be wise after the event and in this I certainly plead guilty,along with many on this forum who were like the Pied Piper’s children led along to the goody bags on the distant horizon .But way back then there were a few sceptics here who were unimpressed.Some are now long gone from this forum .Some are still here and have been astringent critics all along.Good for them.

    

      DJM’s onward ( unfortunately not upward ) progress was fuelled by this forum.He used it as a means to promote his ends  until it became a double edged sword which cut both ways.The silence from that point probably marks the beginning of descent into failure.I’m afraid glib promises enticed the understandable gullibility of those who wanted what he offered.Ultimately he failed to deliver and much of what he produced was flawed.

 

But yes,the danger signs were there from the start.,beginning with a seemingly uneasy parting with Dapol 

[njee20]

9 hours ago, Persephone said:

 

Very relevant TBH. Jones makes Alastair Campbell look like a rank amateur when it comes to spin. It's about time some of the more vacuous claims were challenged and put into perspective. The hobby needs Jones back like it needs a hole in the head to be frank. 

Can’t argue with that, just seemed a very long winded post, why not just say “he seems to have made up this award too”?

 

 

[Clearwater]

This is all a rather sad and predictable end for DJM. At least, it’s now clear and folk are not being asked for another chunk of money on project x or y that “if you support me guys then i’ll be through this problem in no time and have some great news for you.”

 

I hope two things happen next:

1) someone sees some value in the cads/design work and order books for the King and APT.  If there is, maybe someone buys those from the liquidator and can bring them to market (albeit probably at a higher rrp).

 

2) I also think a “where it went wrong” article with one of the magazines would be an interesting feature.  That needs to include an interview with Dave but conducted, written and edited by a journalist who can cut out the BS and challenge his assumptions and assemble the facts.  The article may still be sympathetic to Dave on a human level but perhaps get to the truth and away from the myths. 

 

Finally, and I’m sure there are people who read this (and I suspect DJ lurks here), I hope Dave is ok and that he’s being looked after.  This can’t be easy for him in any way.  Not least this is a vocation for him.  For many, Railway models are a way to get away from the stresses and strains of real life.  To risk losing that as well as his livelihood must be a major blow.  The next trip to a show will be tough for him.

 

David

[7013]

 I am not defending Dave Jones, he started a business that has ultimately failed, well the world is littered with failed dreams, and lets face it most people thought DJs venture was a breath of fresh air, especially at a time when Hornby were going through its woes. I am intrigued by the amount of posters who 'always knew he was dodgy' and 'the warning signs were there'. Being wise after the event is not clever, if these same people knew so much why didnt they ring the alarm bells years ago? I remember a time when DJ was with Dapol he was lauded for his communication and frankness with modellers, but it would appear he was just being big headed and self promoting. 

I only ever bought one of DJs models and it runs perfectly, as good as any other model I have and better than many. It is a sad day when a business fails, especially a model railway business, and it is easy to point out DJs business flaws, but character assasination is unbecoming when a person is down, especially by the majority who do not even know him. Berate his business venture but leave the man alone.

[PMP]

22 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Can’t argue with that, just seemed a very long winded post, why not just say “he seems to have made up this award too”?

 

 

Hi @njee20

The reason for the length of the post was to show that this mysterious award and it’s plausibility, was a red flag at the time, if anyone cared to use a bit of thought. Some did of course.

The response is a few posts later. Apparently Mags thought she should have an award for best young modeller to encourage young model making. Clearly top of PM’s priorities. ‘Tell Galtieri I’ll call him back, I’ve got a young modellers competition to organise’...

 

The show, (remember, largest one day show in the world) was held, discreetly, in a sports hall in the small market town of Aylesbury Bucks. For reasons unknown there appears, subject to clarification, to have been some sort of  news blackout on any information of this event.

This event was prior (obvs), to the refurbishment of that venue in the early noughties and it’s subsequent renaming to the Stoke Mandeville Stadium.

[blueeighties]

12 minutes ago, 7013 said:

 if these same people knew so much why didnt they ring the alarm bells years ago? 

We did, and were either shot down as being overly negative, or ignored. As has been discussed to death now, Dave has since he started, alienated all of the businesses and most of the customers he came into contact with.

[Roy Langridge]

12 hours ago, Markwj said:

Speaking of Phil Sutton I notice that the latest newsletter contains a couple of digs against manufacturers who release bits of information without saying anything and crowdfunding. Probably related to the news about Dave Jones. Just feel it's a little unprofessional and they don't need to do this their products speak for themselves.

 

I spoke with Phil the other day, after the newsletter, and he had only just found out that morning about DJM. 

 

Phil is not a big fan of social media and doesn’t spend time here. 

 

Roy

[Hal Nail]

21 minutes ago, 7013 said:

if these same people knew so much why didnt they ring the alarm bells years ago?

I agree with the sentiment expressed, especially character assassination.

 

It is though true to say a fair number did raise warning flags - the problem is that as a group we tend to turn on such posts as negative, trouble making or fuelled by an agenda.

 

We tend to overlook that the agenda might just be trying to protect us.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Hal Nail

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, PMP said:

Hi @njee20

The reason for the length of the post was to show that this mysterious award and it’s plausibility, was a red flag at the time, if anyone cared to use a bit of thought. Some did of course.

The response is a few posts later. Apparently Mags thought she should have an award for best young modeller to encourage young model making. Clearly top of PM’s priorities. ‘Tell Galtieri I’ll call him back, I’ve got a young modellers competition to organise’...

 

The show, (remember, largest one day show in the world) was held, discreetly, in a sports hall in the small market town of Aylesbury Bucks. For reasons unknown there appears, subject to clarification, to have been some sort of  news blackout on any information of this event.

This event was prior (obvs), to the refurbishment of that venue in the early noughties and it’s subsequent renaming to the Stoke Mandeville Stadium.

 

I think historians owe a debt of gratitude here.  It now seems clear why the invasion of the Falkland Islands appeared to take HMG by surprise; a momentary switch of focus at the very top of government.  While no doubt necessary to laud and celebrate the talent of a young Dave Jones, it seems to have had some far reaching effects.  

 

Above, the Prime Minister welcomes Master Jones to a state banquet in his honour

[njee20]

It’s a very random thing to lie about for sure. Exaggerated? Flat lie?

 

Anyway, crack on with the character assassination of a man who’s not here to defend himself!

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Strange.....

 

Unless of course the PayPal saga was just a made up story upon realising the magnitude of PayPal fees when  a few hundred people pay in three figure sums.  Purely speculation on my part. but now I am wondering if the "refunds and re pay by other means" was designed to avoid PayPal fees.  If so it backfired as it gave people the opportunity to drop out, coming as it did at more or less the same time that it took ages to submit micro accounts to avoid striking off. 

 

Maybe I am wrong as it is also possible that to protect privacy PayPal were not going to give out personal information to Britannia.

 

It is funny you should say that Colin, as those were my thoughts at the time. 

 

One of the first things you need to do when starting up a business is sort your banking out, I know of a few who didn't, as being accustomed  to free personal banking they baulked at the idea of paying business banking fees and tried to run their business from their personal accounts. Banks aren't stupid and will eventually realise this and make you open a business account. 

What I always found odd about that sitiuation, is that if DJM's bankers knew he was a 'designer' working with an offshore production company and receiving multiple deposits and part payments they would automatically have offered him a means to accept payment by card etc. And yet when the Paypal debacle started he had no other means of accepting payment in place,  at the very least he could have accepted payment by BACS but instead there was the long winded process of waiting for Lloyds to put in place their Clicksafe payment portal. 

The opinion I formed was that DJM had been running everything from his personal accounts and either Paypal figured this out and wouldn't allow it or that the  option to change to a business footing was an increase in the fees. Seeing that a refund of the amounts would also mean a refund of fees, I thought that DJM had taken the nuclear option to refund monies but had not figured that an action such as this would mean a loss of confidence and a failure to resubscribe. All of these were probably coupled to an undersubscribed project which should have been halted.  

 

[Wheres_Wally]

26 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

 

 

2) I also think a “where it went wrong” article with one of the magazines would be an interesting feature.  That needs to include an interview with Dave but conducted, written and edited by a journalist who can cut out the BS and challenge his assumptions and assemble the facts.  The article may still be sympathetic to Dave on a human level but perhaps get to the truth and away from the myth.

 

It would take months of work and at least one trip to China to write the full story. Even if anyone did put in that investment, the DJ fanbois would say it was too cruel and the DJ haters that it was too soft.