DJM, the end.

[The Stationmaster]

54 minutes ago, 7013 said:

 I am not defending Dave Jones, he started a business that has ultimately failed, well the world is littered with failed dreams, and lets face it most people thought DJs venture was a breath of fresh air, especially at a time when Hornby were going through its woes. I am intrigued by the amount of posters who 'always knew he was dodgy' and 'the warning signs were there'. Being wise after the event is not clever, if these same people knew so much why didnt they ring the alarm bells years ago? I remember a time when DJ was with Dapol he was lauded for his communication and frankness with modellers, but it would appear he was just being big headed and self promoting. 

I only ever bought one of DJs models and it runs perfectly, as good as any other model I have and better than many. It is a sad day when a business fails, especially a model railway business, and it is easy to point out DJs business flaws, but character assasination is unbecoming when a person is down, especially by the majority who do not even know him. Berate his business venture but leave the man alone.

I seem to recollect that some people who even hinted about 'alarm bells' and 'red flags' were at one time being referred to as trolls.   It is always difficult firstly to convey an adverse messages or hints without overstepping the mark but more critically when there are swellings of sympathetic opinion and near beatification around it is very difficult to present a contrary view, as at times is still the case in this thread.  I do not for one minute suggest the latter in Dave's case and I was a strong supporter in his early days but gradually things came to light which caused alarm bells to ring.    Most of what I heard about DJModels - from very reliable sources or found by experience (e.g. the 1361) - was commercially confidential and could hardly be publicly broadcast across the internet, or elsewhere, in any way - then or now.  But it was always a simple task for anyone to look at what had been promised and what had actually materialised and the latter often fell short of the former in various ways. 

 

'Ravenser asked about the 'King'.  It was scanned for the Hattons project and I was at Didcot on the day it should have been scanned but the scanner broke down and the deed was done on, I believe, the following day.  I had been round the engine with 'the two Daves' from Hattons pointing out various things which changed over the years and they were fully aware of all of them except one (which was in the cab) but took due note as it related to other changes on the engine.  I saw an early CAD and it was all too obviously taken from the scan of the engine which had various reduced height fittings to comply with contemporaneous loading gauge and clearly required a massive amount of work to get all the proposed variants covered.  I have no idea if that was ever completed but the two Daves clearly had to be in the driving seat there because they knew exactly what was needed for each variant.

 

I read somewhere that when the project was canned the CADs went to Dave so I have always presumed, rightly or wrongly, they formed the basis of the N gauge model but certainly the initial C ADs of that shown on RMweb had something of a mish mash of details and even the final version still contained a noticeable error on the tender.  However I would think that there is more than enough there to form the basis of getting to a complete N gauge model if whoever can obtain access to the .STL file and has the money to fund the project.  I suspect the latter could be a considerable sum as judging by DJM's website announcement in early April the really expensive part - tooling - was about to commence.  So some big money would be needed to rescue things provided access can be obtained to that file via whoever happens to own it (which might not be DJM?).  Logically perhaps the crowdfunders of the project could get together and contact the liquidators. (And they are presumably in any event. creditors so might be contacting the liquidators anyway?) 

 

While some of this thread has become repetitive I refer to my earlier post where I noted that we do not know why Dave put his company in  to voluntary liquidation nor do we know who the major creditor(s) happen(s) to be.  So whatever took place in the past might still not be a complete story but we won't know that until information comes out of the liquidation process.   Are we bound to discuss this business failure - inevitably.  And we certainly haven't ignored Hornby's various troubles and trials over the years while Bachmann gets what might be politely called a regular hammering on this forum for delayed releases.  So in my view what is sauce for the goose is equally sauce for the gander, irrespective of it being a one man band or part of a multinational company.   And equally inevitably if it is a one man band any past shortcomings in the running of the company are likely to come back that one man.

 

 

 

[Markwj]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

 

@Markwj

 

Please note that the original query re this claim was raised within a day of the publication, six years ago in 2013, by me, because it indicated a huge plausibility and believability issue in the companies claim. In this thread there has been much hand wringing of how 'we' missed red flags regarding elements of the DJM operation.

A bit more context for you. At the time I worked for MRM in London Kings Cross in my early twenties. We had a huge number of younger customers, those are likely now in their 40's. The shops and clubs at that time we were the 'social media' of the time. A national competition from No10, would surely have been high profile. My brother similar age and his compatriots were plastic kit modellers, and bought Scale Models/Airfix Magazine/Military Modeller, their magazine equivalents. None of those I've asked either in 2013 or subsequently recall this event. Some that I have asked are at the very top of the UK 'kit' hobby. Whilst there have been many views of this thread, and the original 2013 one, no-one has said I recall that, or something vaguely similar.

 

I'd suggest that if my suspicion is true that a national Prime Ministers Young Modeller competition didn't exist, then the low blow was struck by a false claim on the originators web site.

 

To end on a positive note if this claim is significantly substantiated, I will make an apology here, and by means of a cheque forwarded via the BRM editorial office donate £100 to the Railway Children charity.

So it has to be

National Prime Ministers Young Modeller competition for 1982

Proof of advertising, eg mag/club media

We find five other entrants, any field of modelling.

Award given by Mrs T at No10 validated by the No10 appointments diary. This is available under the FOI act for non classified data. Its a hard copy document.

Thanks that is a generous offer although not one I think you will need to  pay out on.

I may have not chosen my words wisely I think low blow should really read irrelevance I should think wether he did or did not win this cup in his teens has little to do with the subsequent rise and fall of dj models.

Although I totally accept that if this never existed it could point to a pattern of behaviour which is less than honest!

[Roy L S]

I have kept up with this thread but not felt that I had anything new or worthwhile to contribute in recent days, but now I will make what I hope to be from me, one last comment. 

 

What I would say is that in my exchanges with Dave Jones I invariably found someone who was clearly passionate and enthusiastic about model railways, not wanting for self confidence and able to talk the talk. His business plan looked ambitious, but this was explained by returns from models produced funding the next one etc. He had a then recent history of working for Dapol and in that role an involvement in designing a number of models, some very good, some for me, maybe not quite so. There were introductions of things like pinpoint axle pickup, NEM pockets, not before seen in British N, and that certainly got the attention of Bachmann it appears, who upped their game significantly to the point where in my long history of modelling in British N they are now producing models the quality of which would have been undreamed of 15 years ago. 

 

It is against this backdrop and a willingness to engage with people on forums that he made a name for himself and then moved into business for himself. What caused the departure from Dapol has been the subject of much discussion and speculation that I won't add to.

 

The announcement of the new business departure was received positively in the main, both by modellers and the modelling press. There were a few dissenting voices even then, but most were pleased to see a new entrant with a stated vision for innovation and raising the bar. He said he put the value of the house he owned in to launch this venture, and that was seen as a measure of his commitment.

 

The first model, the J94 was I think developed alongside his commission work, but took a long time to develop and he said ended up costing more than planned. This, and adverse movements in £/US exchange rates, he said made things harder for him. As far as I can recall the model received no dreadful reviews but did not represent the promised "step change" either. There were many reports of poor running and an unnecessarily complex design of mechanism with gear coupling of wheels hindering rather than helping in this respect. Similarly his commissions seem to have received mixed reviews, and for their own reasons commissioners subsequently made alternative arrangements for their models.

 

More models were announced in his own name, and this raised more than a few eyebrows given that there were still quite a number on the initial to do list. The 71 was announced as a crowdfunding venture via Kernow and delivered, again to mixed reviews, especially as regards the mechanism. The subsequent 74 did not achive the numbers.....

 

The sight of the Clayton EP may have given (it did to me) credence that things were still progressing, I actually had a chance to hold this model in my hands at the N Gauge Show one year, to me it looked promising, certainly more than a cobbled together version made up of 3D printed parts, and it seemed the Clayton could well indeed happen. Some of us were asked to pay up front to fund EP2 etc, but then the bombshell hit, he could not access "his" tooling so the model could not be progressed. As far as I know everyone paying to support EP2 was refunded in full, quite rightly as that was the only reason for providing him with funding, but to be fair to Dave this was recognised and done without quibble. However for me it was here that some nagging doubts started to form in the back of my mind, and after this, if my recollection is correct, only a small batch of N Mermaids (and admittedly very nice) have been delivered from his own resources.

 

From this point on crowdfunding seems to have been the primary focus, but all four of the projects getting to the funding stage seem to have suffered from lengthening timelines, and confidence in recent times has dwindled. It was perhaps with hindsight unwise to continue to promote an N Gauge 92 after learning of RevolutioN's but in my humble opinion they had every right to produce one, it is called competition, and indeed theirs has seen visible progress to the point of now being close to production. That Accurascale recently announced a 00 one to go with their Mk5 sleepers was similarly entirely their business, and again they have moved the project forward quickly to the point where it is I think now being tooled. If the DJM model had progressed further this would maybe not have been the case?

 

I admit, even at this point I was personally prepared to have a "punt" on the N Gauge J94 that he announced as a crowdfunded model, believing each project to have a separate income and expenditure stream with no inter-dependency.... 

 

We will never know the reason for Dave's ill advised May 1st announcement, but I feel that brought all the turkeys home to roost. He was under the microscope like never before, with questions being asked about the whereabouts of crowdfunding money and the micro accounts of the company commented on as not reflecting the expected position. His immediate disappearance following the announcement, whatever the reason for it did nothing to assuage fears and concerns, and although he was said to be in China snagging the APT model (from what has been posted in this Forum) it appears that already it may have been recognised that the company was insolvent and could not continue to trade.

 

Sorry to those who feel this is all a statement of the blindingly obvious, but it does illustrate (to me anyway) how someone can transition from the "great new hope" to the point where credibility has been well and truly "shot". 

 

Personally I have lost nothing, but I could have. My own thoughts are primarily with those who put money into projects believing they would see an outcome. Alternatively, Dave knew the risks, I found him knowledgeable and quite an engaging and charismatic character to talk to, and while I do not doubt for a second he is deeply saddened by the outcome, and feels bad for those who have very probably lost money, I cannot put him in the same position as them. 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but firstly it is clear that enthusiasm and innovation, however beneficial is not enough to be a success in business. A look at the micro-accounts at an earlier stage could well have given a better feel for things, and little comfort though it will be now, probably the biggest thing to take away from this is to ask questions and do your due diligence no matter how well you think you know the position when considering something similar. If it then still feels wrong, no matter how much you want the proposed model, do not feel apologetic, walk away.

 

Roy

 

 

[PaulCheffus]

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

 Who was the Stove R a commission for? 

 

Hi

 

The N gauge society maybe as theirs was produced by Dapol.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Widnes Model Centre]

48 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Either that customer sounds more gullable than most or he was an exceptional con artist using DJs situation to add flyers to your shelf and then invent some story to extort £250. Personally I would not have gavin him £250 unless he was a regular customer spending 1000s.

 

He was a elderly gentleman. His son came back to the shop with proof of payment. This occurred well over twelve months ago around the PayPal debacle. He had asked for a refund via Djm and had l discovered been told the money was spent. I believed him. DJM stated he couldn’t find any records but he never asked the name of the gentleman. When you get someone who is agitated in your shop and asking for a refund it was for the sake of our business that l paid out of my own pocket. Problem solved. 

 

Perhaps I should have not believed him and instead put my faith in DJ? With your benefit of hindsight what would you have done?

[Barry Ten]

30 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

The N gauge society maybe as theirs was produced by Dapol.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

The 00 one was done for Ian Allan. It's a terrible model, unfortunately. Mine stays in a dark drawer out of shame.

[JSpencer]

19 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

He was a elderly gentleman. His son came back to the shop with proof of payment. This occurred well over twelve months ago around the PayPal debacle. He had asked for a refund via Djm and had l discovered been told the money was spent. I believed him. DJM stated he couldn’t find any records but he never asked the name of the gentleman. When you get someone who is agitated in your shop and asking for a refund it was for the sake of our business that l paid out of my own pocket. Problem solved. 

 

Perhaps I should have not believed him and instead put my faith in DJ? With your benefit of hindsight what would you have done?

 

Oh the poor chap. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how many other such soles were taken in and have yet to hear the news. I fully agree with your charitable decision (and your annoyance with DJ).

Edited June 9, 2019 by JSpencer

[Yellowperil]

The Dunning Kruger affect seems particularly apt for this particular manufacturer.

[MarkSG]

One thing worth bearing in mind, in the context of all the "I told you so" and "I could see the signs" posts in this thread, is that the five year survival rate for new businesses in the UK is 43%. That is, only just over two in every five new businesses will still be trading after five years.

 

That's a massive drop-out rate. So predicting the failure of a business is always a better bet than predicting its success, because, statistically, more businesses will fail within five years than will survive. And the industry category that DJM operated in (manufacture of toys and models) has a slightly lower survival rate than average, of just 40%.

 

So it's not actually that surprising that DJM failed. In fact, it ever so slightly beat the odds, having been formed in July 2013 and making it to June 2019 before going into administration. Before rushing to judgement on why it failed, contributors might like to reflect on the fact that the dice were loaded against it from the start, and all the people who think they could have done a better job of running a company are, statistically, unlikely to have had any greater success.

[John M Upton]

Which brings up another point.  Those of us online will almost certainly all be up to date with the collapse of DJM but there were still be a lot more out of his customers/crowdfunders out there who will be blissfully unaware of what has happened and will naturally be assuming all is well with their deposits and preparing the track for APT's and 92's that are never coming.

[a@y]

36 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

One thing worth bearing in mind, in the context of all the "I told you so" and "I could see the signs" posts in this thread, is that the five year survival rate for new businesses in the UK is 43%. That is, only just over two in every five new businesses will still be trading after five years.

 

That's a massive drop-out rate. So predicting the failure of a business is always a better bet than predicting its success, because, statistically, more businesses will fail within five years than will survive. And the industry category that DJM operated in (manufacture of toys and models) has a slightly lower survival rate than average, of just 40%.

 

So it's not actually that surprising that DJM failed. In fact, it ever so slightly beat the odds, having been formed in July 2013 and making it to June 2019 before going into administration. Before rushing to judgement on why it failed, contributors might like to reflect on the fact that the dice were loaded against it from the start, and all the people who think they could have done a better job of running a company are, statistically, unlikely to have had any greater success.

Many new companies are set up for projects, which only last a short time. This may include merely being holding companies for assets such as IP (web names...), or land ownership for a development opportunity. Maybe a "pop-up enterprise". Or, these days, for phoenixism.

The real test is compliance with statutory deadlines, transparency in accounts/dealings, and delivery of promises.  Of course the past does not bind the future, but it helps build confidence.

a@y

[AMJ]

Not the first and will not be the last model company to cease to exist.  Unfortunately the funding strategy  is completely different to others. 

 

I think that it has taken some smaller makers to come onto the scene with game changing detail differences to get the others to look at what they are doing.  Many US makers have different detail levels and associated pricing.

 

The Austerity is a real gem just a shame that the Hudswell Clarke won't now happen.

[truffy]

3 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I for one would not want railway magazines to descend into sensationalist tripe anyway.

Sensationalist tripe or properly-researched, unbiased investigative journalism?

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, truffy said:

Sensationalist tripe or properly-researched, unbiased investigative journalism?

Magazines need to have the confidence of their advertisers, although I do not suggest this skews review accuracy. But the general modelling market has little interest in why a firm stopped trading, and advertisers seeing such an article will wonder whether a hatchet job might be done on them too, if they fail. Not much there to attract the editor to commission a forensic study, I suggest.  

[Amand]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

Which brings up another point.  Those of us online will almost certainly all be up to date with the collapse of DJM but there were still be a lot more out of his customers/crowdfunders out there who will be blissfully unaware of what has happened and will naturally be assuming all is well with their deposits and preparing the track for APT's and 92's that are never coming.

 

Was there another method of payment / expression of interest other than the DJM website and Paypal? The lack of updates should maybe prompt those who have financially supported new products would look to the website to see what's happening.

1 hour ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

He was a elderly gentleman. His son came back to the shop with proof of payment. This occurred well over twelve months ago around the PayPal debacle. He had asked for a refund via Djm and had l discovered been told the money was spent. I believed him. DJM stated he couldn’t find any records but he never asked the name of the gentleman.

 

And didn't Dave lose the details of some people who had made EOIs for models? Looks like he lost details of those who changed EOIs into payments.

[Alex Duckworth]

Does all this mean I won't be getting a Baby Deltic?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Nothing to stop the citizen journalists on RMWeb having a go.  I suspect that all the facts are known, but just not by everyone at once.  Several commentators on this thread clearly have inside knowledge from an inside industry perspective and several others have already contributed sensible posts as good as anything I read in this weekends papers.

[Pete 75C]

The way it was...

 

Model is announced.

We wait patiently.

Model is released.

We perhaps wait for a review in our magazine of choice.

We buy.

 

The way it is...

 

A model is announced for possible production.

We froth.

We are asked to make an expression of interest.

We froth some more.

We wait.

Expressions of interest prove that there is demand.

We're asked to get our wallets out.

We wait for the CAD.

The CAD is wrong.

We wait.

We wait some more.

The revised CAD is wrong.

Some give up but the rest wait.

Hurrah! The CAD seems ok to most mere mortals.

We wait.

We continue to froth while waiting.

Painted samples arrive.

They're wrong.

We take to the keyboards in disgust.

We wait.

Forum user A falls out with forum user B.

Forum user C is banned.

We wait.

Revised painted samples arrive.

They're fine to most mere mortals.

We wait.

And froth.

We're still waiting.

Container is loaded.

We follow the ship halfway around the world using GPS tracking.

Still waiting.

We pay the balance.

Our model arrives.

Bits fall off when you open the box and that shade of grey is FAR too dark.

World ends.

 

My rose tinted spectacles and I really really really miss the way it was!

 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Pete 75C

[john new]

Also add when it’s available you don’t have spare money; when you do have some money it is out of production!

[Francis deWeck]

Pete 75C has it just right; The way it was is preferable to the way it is. There is also a problem with wish lists, some express a wish, then when it follows 'the way it is path' they lose interest, or things change. Not easy for a producer.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Pete 75C said:

The way it was...

 

Model is announced.

We wait patiently.

Model is released.

We perhaps wait for a review in our magazine of choice.

We buy.

 

The way it is...

 

A model is announced for possible production.

We froth.

We are asked to make an expression of interest.

We froth some more.

We wait.

Expressions of interest prove that there is demand.

We're asked to get our wallets out.

We wait for the CAD.

The CAD is wrong.

We wait.

We wait some more.

The revised CAD is wrong.

Some give up but the rest wait.

Hurrah! The CAD seems ok to most mere mortals.

We wait.

We continue to froth while waiting.

Painted samples arrive.

They're wrong.

We take to the keyboards in disgust.

We wait.

Forum user A falls out with forum user B.

Forum user C is banned.

We wait.

Revised painted samples arrive.

They're fine to most mere mortals.

We wait.

And froth.

We're still waiting.

Container is loaded.

We follow the ship halfway around the world using GPS tracking.

Still waiting.

We pay the balance.

Our model arrives.

Bits fall off when you open the box and that shade of grey is FAR too dark.

World ends.

 

My rose tinted spectacles and I really really really miss the way it was!

 

 

You forgot the pre announcement of the announcement

[spamcan61]

31 minutes ago, Francis deWeck said:

 Not easy for a producer.

Indeed, toy train production must be very tricky, speaking as somebody designing products in the UK for manufacture in the Far East (nowt to do with toy trains).

 

First of all you've got to try and work out what design trade-offs to make in terms of detail/mechanical complexity/cost/timescale to maximise profit. Trying to pitch the product somewhere between those who loudly demand that every single detail is correct for a specific loco at a specific point in time and those who just want something 'nice' to look at . For the avoidance of doubt I'm moving ever more towards the Rule #1 / 'nice to look at' end of the spectrum ;-)

 

Then you've likely got to manage manufacture of a product with a really high level of hand assembly, probably in a factory on the other side of the planet.

 

All of this with a development cost likely to be (say) 150-200K GBP for a loco.

 

Just a general thought, in no way whatsoever attempting to justify the antics of the primary subject of this thread.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

The 00 one was done for Ian Allan. It's a terrible model, unfortunately. Mine stays in a dark drawer out of shame.

 

Are you sure? My recollection is that it was the first commission for ModelRail.

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Are you sure? My recollection is that it was the first commission for ModelRail.

 

No, the Stove R was for Hornby magazine - nothing to do with the topic in hand.

[miles73128]

In other news, last call for the Class 71 E5015 Golden Arrow at Hattons. 1left, I had the penultimate one and a blue for prosperity!