DJM, the end.

[njee20]

Trading does not mean their web developers work 24/7. 

 

I can forgive every shop not sitting smashing the refresh button on the Gazette so they can update their pre-orders should any company cease to trade. People have weird expectations. 

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, Vistisen said:

 From PayPals own page:

 

"Once you have provided information regarding your campaign and are approved, we welcome you to raise money for:

New product development, like video games, movies, or new gadgets."

 

https://developer.paypal.com/docs/classic/lifecycle/crowdfunding-uk/

 

But further down it says

 

What crowdfunding campaigns does PayPal NOT support?

 

New product development, like video games, movies, or new gadgets.

 

It goes on.

Reward-based campaigns without a delivery disclaimer or with concurrent advance product sales will be considered Preselling and may be subject to payment holds.

 

Once the campaign has been launched, we will continue to monitor the account to ensure it remains compliant with our policy and government regulations. Accounts with heightened risk may require us to take action such as a payment hold or reserve.

Sometimes this review takes time and in rare situations, an account will immediately be put on hold until the review can be completed.

Some heightened risks are:

High likelihood of negative customer experiences from chargebacks, refunds, or fraud.

Non-compliance with our Anti-Money Laundering Policy.

Negative publicity about a campaign causing donors to ask for their money back.

 

At the time of the Paypal refunds debacle, Paypal had a policy of not promoting crowdfunding. What information that they had on their website went to dead links.

The reason DJM gave for the refunds did not make sense as if Paypal had an issue with DJM and had frozen his account for misuse insisting he refund all funders how was he able to only refund some and not all ? Monies had been spent and instead of refunding a proportional amount to all funders, he chose to refund some and ignore others.  If DJM did have to refund all then doing it proportionally would have meant that he kept hold of all investors, but by refunding some fully they were able to walk away.

 

 

[truffy]

6 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Even if true, if this is an attempt to suggest Hattons are going to rip people off, then it's not going to fly. Their website needs updating, but it was late last week when we were sure exactly what was happening. I'm sure that any orders will be refunded and the site updated ASAP.

Hi Phil, I don't think that there was any attempt, on anyone's part, and certainly not my own, to suggest that Hattons would rip anyone off. They're not that kind of outfit, and I have had nothing but positive experience dealing with them!

 

Peace.

[Hippo]

7 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Even if true, if this is an attempt to suggest Hattons are going to rip people off, then it's not going to fly. Their website needs updating, but it was late last week when we were sure exactly what was happening. I'm sure that any orders will be refunded and the site updated ASAP.

To add to what Phil has said, as a regular buyer from Hattons, I can safely say they don't take any money from you for pre-orders until they have the itme in stock and it is ready to post. The same goes for Rails and Kernow.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Phil Parker]

Can we shut up and Hattons, Rails, Kernow etc. please!

I want to go and paint some models, not look at my computer.

[brushman47544]

7 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I want to go and paint some models, not look at my computer.

 

You need one of those old fashioned shop signs that says “back shortly” and temporarily lock the thread.

[Nova Scotian]

Things I'm mildly interested in, that may not have been mentioned already (I've skimmed the 27 pages, for my sins):

 

- I wonder if there's anything in progress, or due for shipping - most likely OO austerity/j94 that's been held up by cashflow. If finished, or close to finished, will the liquidators look to pay, then flog cheap? Could we see some product being dumped in the UK marketplace, or have we had the last ever shipment of new DJM? It'd have to be non-crowdfunded.

- Liquidation is painfully complex, given the number of likely creditors involved, and so any progress on seeing any of the business assumed (IP, tooling etc) would take a long time as there'd have to be agreements on value, how much the creditors get etc. However, it is possible that key pieces could be picked off individually. For example - cutting out the "middleman" on the N gauge King - could there be direct work between a retailer and factory given progress had apparently been made, thus costs sunk, and pennies would be paid on the pounds owing. 

- I'd been surprised at the lack of spares for products - that can only get worse from now on? Perhaps someone is working away now on a traditional folded brass chassis for underneath the DJM bodies for a traditional gearbox and mashima type motor?

- There are some products that DJM clearly identified a market for (in my mind) such as the N gauge Clayton. Could we see more collaboration between manufacturers, factories and retailers across the different gauges? As Heljan I may not want to jump into N gauge, but I have an existing sales channel, I have the CAD etc - risk-sharing with a factory willing to take a punt on providing the mechanism could be an interesting way to do these smaller runs.

 

All the above is pure speculation, and if this is the wrong place for that I'm happy to edit (the 27 pages before this suggest this is pretty mild...).

 

It's sad that so many people may have lost out on models they wanted, and money they once had (if they are not able to reclaim). It's sad that an individual has lost something they tried to build. Hopefully, from the ashes, there is still a business model in the hobby for small runs, retailer commissions, some sort of shared-risk model where the risks are better communicated and understood. 

 

I wanted DJM to succeed, because I don't want to see anyone fail who's trying to provide new and/or better models for the hobby. I've seen that sentiment echoed here. 

 

I sincerely hope for those that may have lost out; that your losses are small and life sees its way to compensate you in some other way.

[Porcy Mane]

Post removed.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Porcy Mane
Post removed.

[brack]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

As has been said before more than once on this thread, the website isn't taking money.

I'd assumed (perhaps incorrectly) the tone of the post in question made the sarcasm fairly evident, it certainly wasn't a serious exhortation to attempt to hand over monies either to a defunct company or for items which wont be produced via Hattons.

(Just in case anyone was about to do so on the recomendation of an anonymous poster, though I can understand why Mr Parker's nerves might be a little frayed at this point in time too).

 

Let's wait and see, the completed or substantially finished tooling most likely will eventually reappear, it only has value if it does so, so it is in the current owner's interest (whoever that may be) to bring it to market in some form. Likewise Mr Jones will hopefully find himself an alternative source of income. I'm not sure I hold out much hope for customers who are out of pocket, I daresay they might not be at the top of the list of creditors.

[newbryford]

25 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

You need one of those old fashioned shop signs that says “back shortly” and temporarily lock the thread.

 

Or to get AY to cut short his holiday...................... so Phil can have one.

 

 

[spamcan61]

33 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

- I'd been surprised at the lack of spares for products - that can only get worse from now on? Perhaps someone is working away now on a traditional folded brass chassis for underneath the DJM bodies for a traditional gearbox and mashima type motor?

 

According to this thread, Digitrains have some DJM spares:-

 

 

[Nova Scotian]

1 minute ago, spamcan61 said:

According to this thread, Digitrains have some DJM spares:-

 

 

Oh, I'd missed that. Thank you!

[wellseasoned]

How about a few people posting their experiences thus far in pursuing a refund from their credit card company. ?

 There could well be some dirty linen that will come out when the insolvency  gets under way, possibly enough to satisfy many people. It's early days with much to be investigated, yet this has turned into open season, a sort of who can we point the finger at next with some..

[Hal Nail]

17 minutes ago, wellseasoned said:

How about a few people posting their experiences thus far in pursuing a refund from their credit card company?

There’s already a separate topic on that.

 

Administrators might look into things as part of trying to keep a company going but I’m not sure liquidators would. Their job is wrap it up (and in the process pay to creditors what they can). They don’t do it for free so taking any longer than necessary just absorbs anything available to dish out. 

[dibber25]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Are you sure? My recollection is that it was the first commission for ModelRail.

No it wasn't. It was commissioned by Hornby magazine. In terms of exclusive tooling, Model Rail has only ever done locomotives - the Sentinel by Dapol, the 'USA' by Bachmann and the 'J70 by Rapido Trains, so far. (CJL)

[a@y]

 It might be worthwhile if a bunch of creditors approach the liquidators and offer to buy the IP for a nominal sum. The liquidators may not be aware of the position (there's not much money involved, and they will want to minimise time/their costs) and so the IP may be rescued to be used by someone else. Of course there are many ifs/buts here, but as typically a creditor may only be paid a few pence in the pound, it could be better than nothing. 

As to who'll want it, well, it will need to be looked at first.

a@y

Edited June 9, 2019 by a@y
grammar

[The Stationmaster]

19 minutes ago, a@y said:

 It might be worthwhile if a bunch of creditors approach the liquidators and offer to buy the IP for a nominal sum. The liquidators may not be aware of the position (there's not much money involved, and they will want to minimise time/their costs) and so the IP may be rescued to be used by someone else. Of course there are many ifs/buts here, but as typically a creditor may only be paid a few pence in the pound, it could be better than nothing. 

As to who'll want it, well, it will need to be looked at first.

a@y

The IP is of little use or value without the .STL  file and it's probably worthless in any event if somebody else owns any existing tooling or the .STL file.   As I suggested in respect of the 'King' what could be a realistic approach is for the crowdfunders to get together and approach the liquidators to obtain what exists of complete CADs and acertain who has possession of the .STL  file.  The only place you are likely to get any sort of answer is from the liquidators.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Can we shut up and Hattons, Rails, Kernow etc. please!

I want to go and paint some models, not look at my computer.

 

This, young Phillip, is the price you pay for administering to a lively model railway forum!

 

You need to lie down in a darkened room, close your eyes, and repeat the following phrase... "GWR... Gooch Was Right".... There, you're feeling better already....

 

Me? I'm off to search for some more conspiracy theorists!

 

Ian.

[maico]

On 04/06/2019 at 21:19, woodenhead said:

Chargebacks are an inter bank agreement and handling process for dealing with disputes, there is no legal requirement upon the bank to refund you unlike section 75.

 

your card company may attempt a chargeback 79 for non receipt of goods but if there is no money for the merchant's (DJ Models) account for their banker to collect funds from the chargeback will likely come back.  It's still possible for your card issuer to attempt the chargeback but it is not a guaranteed refund, IIRC in my time we would attempt chargebacks and then run the clock down on the merchants bank in the hope they didn't respond  in time and could reject their representation of the charge.

 

Sometime back I filled in a Capital One Mastercard chargeback form for an item bought on Ebay by Paypal some 6 months previously. I claimed it wasn't of saleable quality and enclosed a photo to prove it and the return tracking number.  As far as Mastercard was concerned the chargeback was against Paypal not the vendor . I got all the money including shipping refunded.   

If it had been an intangible, for example money sent to Walter Mitty designing rockets to Mars in his bedroom, I expect the return would be zilch...

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback

Edited June 10, 2019 by maico
typo

[Stoker]

Without meaning to sound unsympathetic, I think you just have to take this as a lesson to be more careful about who you put your money with when it's a limited run, pre-order only, crowdfunded model. If it's someone like Kernow or Hattons (sorry Phil) who have an actual physical location, has been around for a long time, and has tangible assets... then that's fine. But for start-ups that have little more than some fancy 3D CAD files and maybe only a handful of releases under their belt, not to mention a slightly shady past, I think you should understand that there's some risk. It's not like this has never happened before. I've been saying for years that I don't like this recent business model, it seems ripe for abuse and very risky... while I appreciate some of the models that might have never existed without it, sometimes I wonder if it was really ever worth it in the first place.

Here in Canada we have one that is miraculously still in business (although doesn't seem to really be producing anything lately) called True Line Trains. They once had a partnership with a bricks and mortar hobby store, which took a whole load of cash deposits on a caboose that TLT was going to produce, only to then close their doors and run off with all the money. TLT then had to produce the cabooses practically at a loss for those who had pre-ordered, but only did so begrudgingly after it didn't go down too well when they went around telling everyone "we don't require a deposit, we never received your money, so you still have to pay full price". Further down the line they started taking preorders for an SW1200RS that they'd made CAD files for... 5 years later and still no product, and then they got angry at Rapido who ended up producing their own SW1200RS because they thought that was "unethical"...! For my part in it, I told TLT that I thought they were being absurd and that Rapido had every right to produce a model that TLT were very clearly never going to get around to producing. Their response was along the lines of "but we invested a bunch of time and money in it"... okay, well then why did you stop? The answer is it usually all boils down to the people running the show. TLT were just as capable of producing a product as Rapido, the difference is when you have someone like Jason Shron at the helm, stuff gets done.

Another classic case in point was Railflyer models, who produced some incredibly fine scale locomotive detailing components, probably some of the finest ever produced, but he also had the absolute worst attitude on the forums and at trade shows. His smug sense of superiority was just unbelievable and in the end he drove away all his customers. If it wasn't for that, he likely could've gone really, really far with his company. Many companies like his have ended up merging or partnering with the mainstream manufacturers to provide detailing parts for their new releases. That's essentially what happened with BLMA, an excellent detail part manufacturer, which got purchased by Atlas. A very similar company, but two very different people in charge.

[jjb1970]

I'm sure the liquidators will do their job and what can be done will be done to recover monies owed to the creditors.

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The IP is of little use or value without the .STL  file and it's probably worthless in any event if somebody else owns any existing tooling or the .STL file.   As I suggested in respect of the 'King' what could be a realistic approach is for the crowdfunders to get together and approach the liquidators to obtain what exists of complete CADs and acertain who has possession of the .STL  file.  The only place you are likely to get any sort of answer is from the liquidators.

 

I agree that someone needs to approach the liquidators. Ideally, it should be a creditor but anyone with detailed knowledge will probably be welcome.

19 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I'm sure the liquidators will do their job and what can be done will be done to recover monies owed to the creditors.

 

Sadly, that does not match my experience of insolvency administrators. Look up "pre-pack administrations".

 

Firstly, if Dave Jones' records were chaotic (as I suspect they were), they won't have much idea of how to proceed.

 

Secondly, if they realise that there are people with an interest in these assets, they will find it more difficult to undersell them and leave creditors in the lurch.

[Jonboy]

In my experience liquidators start by looking after their own interests, their fees will appear eye-watering, and will be paid first, as the process goes on.

[Coach bogie]

The taxman usually gets paid first and in full, then the liquidator, and if there is anything left, the creditors. A good friend is an insolvency practitioner. he says often there is little to liquidate. In one company the only assets was a kettle and some mugs. Furniture, pictures on the walls, equipment, even the plants were all leased and went back to the lease holders. Even the toilet rolls were provided by the landlord. As a limited company not even the taxman got paid on that one.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[jjb1970]

I don't think the problem is the liquidators per se but rather the sad reality is that if a company goes insolvent there generally isn't much left to recover. If there was money there I'm guessing DJM would have tried to struggle on. Obviously the liquidators expect to be paid, but it is like a lot of other services, if you have a skill and knowledge then such skills have a value.