DJM, the end.

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Bear in mind that an APT in OO might be a half million pound project....

And that a .STL file might not even exist as it is unclear from the thread if work had actually reached that stage.   Probably the best answer would be to start from scratch and establish contact with the factory to see what they have.  But Chinese factories do not work for nothing and they are unlikely to take on anything without cash being paid.  And as Ravenser has said for a multi-vehicle train with lots of ideas planned to be incorporated you will be looking at big money. 

But the essential point is whether or not there is actually a big enough market, and therefore enough willing funders, for a 14 train.

 

[woodenhead]

An observation - there is another locked thread on a failed scheme at the moment after some fairly angry posting about the situation.

 

On this thread it feels the anger is not quite the same, almost resigned to the situation.

 

I presume perhaps this is because what happened with DJM was signposted 12 months ago and people have been looking upon their investment since as a bet - it might pay off but probably won't whereas with the other company it was a unexpected but the reasons behind the situation are very different to DJM.

 

It's almost Ce la vie with this thread.

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

The taxman usually gets paid first and in full, then the liquidator, and if there is anything left, the creditors. A good friend is an insolvency practitioner. he says often there is little to liquidate. In one company the only assets was a kettle and some mugs. Furniture, pictures on the walls, equipment, even the plants were all leased and went back to the lease holders. Even the toilet rolls were provided by the landlord. As a limited company not even the taxman got paid on that one.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

What? not even a cup of tea!!!

[truffy]

28 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I think the 14 car APT project would be pretty difficult to pick up 

 

Wasn't that more than a pipe dream anyway?

[njee20]

The company I work for is in administration, has been for a year now, I'm still here, there will still be people here at the end of next year I suspect. Our plants were also all leased and were ignominiously collected early in the days of the administration!

[Ravenser]

36 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Might be wise to see if another manufacturer prefers to pick the pieces up or simply just start from scratch. The fact that someone else did some work does not instantly mean we can move to the next steps especially a complex project like this. It could interest me but it would require putting into place infrastruture and organisation first which is not cheap nor quick. 

 

On reflection - wouldn't it be better just to buy a couple of Hornby Javelins, an Accurascale 92, and start talking about a possible new Eurostar in OO? 

 

After all the APT never made it into revenue service but CTRL exists, it's a whole railway and its been running busily for over a decade

 

Logically if anyone really has space to run 14 coach high-speed trains , a Eurostar makes much more sense 

[njee20]

Why? Eurostars don't really co-exist with much on the UK rail network. Ok there are more of them, and they've been in revenue generating service for a while, but since when did that mean they "make sense". By that merit we should have all manner of boring DMUs/EMUs and no Brighton Belles, Blue Pullmans, APT-E etc etc.

[GordonC]

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

On reflection - wouldn't it be better just to buy a couple of Hornby Javelins, an Accurascale 92, and start talking about a possible new Eurostar in OO? 

 

After all the APT never made it into revenue service but CTRL exists, it's a whole railway and its been running busily for over a decade

 

Logically if anyone really has space to run 14 coach high-speed trains , a Eurostar makes much more sense 

 

As I model Scotland/North West England in the 1980s-1990s ... why would I want a Eurostar or a Javelin??? ... neither hold the slightest interest for me. A Class 92 is stretching it, but I'll have one

 

an APT ... definitely, no question

 

[Colin_McLeod]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Phil - I am not wishing to impose, but if you are speaking with the liquidators tomorrow, would you be able to broach the subject of a representative for the crowdfunders?

 

It would be very much appreciated if you could.

 

Roy

 

Great idea. One relevant point is that the crowdfunders as a group could well be the biggest creditor. Crowd funding represents approx 25% of total sale price of several projects and could well exceed the tooling/manufacturing bill from one of the factories.  As a substantial group of creditors a strong voice on the committee may well help make the right things happen.  It would also bring into the proceedings someone who knows more about the industry and potential value of things like tooling, CAD etc that the liquidators might not realise.  The liquidators interest is to maximise sale value for creditors but in addition the crowdfunder voice on the committee might also be able to "save" one or more projects for ultimate manufacture by

A N Other at a future date.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Colin_McLeod
typo

[Legend]

I'd always hoped Rapido would do APT-P after APT-E , after all they now have the mechanics of a tilting dmu, so don't need to design from scratch. Also clearly this is a company that has gained and earned reputation , not least from its previous APT release. I think you would also have a more considered approach to 5 cars, 7 cars  etc  enabling you to build train as required. Ironically the presence of DJM project probably put the kabosh on this. Maybe now they can take a fresh look at it .

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Why? Eurostars don't really co-exist with much on the UK rail network. Ok there are more of them, and they've been in revenue generating service for a while, but since when did that mean they "make sense". By that merit we should have all manner of boring DMUs/EMUs and no Brighton Belles, Blue Pullmans, APT-E etc etc.

 

  They were run on the ECML for some years (at least the short sets) . And far far more people have travelled on them than ever got to ride on an APT-P - even if you take the new generation sets

 

Given all the folk eager to buy and run a 14 car high speed EMU in OO , I'm musing why nobody wants to model CTRL

 

And as someone with a layout designed to run a broad selection of "boring DMUs", I'm mentally comparing the geographic range, service life , tooling cost and likely price of an APT-P  in OO against - say - a Class 114

 

The whole APT-P project was an odd thing. Why is this a "must-have" and a Eurostar "yawn , who can be bothered with that. Doesn't make sense" ?

[Joseph_Pestell]

35 minutes ago, njee20 said:

The company I work for is in administration, has been for a year now, I'm still here, there will still be people here at the end of next year I suspect. Our plants were also all leased and were ignominiously collected early in the days of the administration!

 

You are luckier than some. I recall an administration where the insolvency practitioners kicked everybody out of the office with no notice at all. Weeks later there were still cold mugs of coffee on the desks.

[DavidH]

37 minutes ago, njee20 said:

The company I work for is in administration, has been for a year now, I'm still here, there will still be people here at the end of next year I suspect. Our plants were also all leased and were ignominiously collected early in the days of the administration!

 

Bishop's Castle Railway. Almost its entire life spent in receivership.

[njee20]

Yep, they did that with a significant proportion of the staff.

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

And far far more people have travelled on them than ever got to ride on an APT-P - even if you take the new generation sets

 

 

Again, that would mean that hardly anyone living should be modelling pre-grouping. I just think your logic for what makes a desirable model is hugely flawed.

[Phil Parker]

Thread creep warning. 

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

For data protection reasons, any register should be held by the liquidators and NOT on an RMweb thread. 

 

A single representative sounds like a good idea, but I get the feeling everyone wants to be on the committee so perhaps it's not workable. 

 

This all needs to be in the hands of the official liquidators and not a group on a forum. That's why I've been trying to sort out a contact.

 

Personally Phil, I would never wish to be on such a committee. I see benefit in somebody completely impartial being chosen who can work without any prejudice.

Roy

Edited June 10, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[philiprporter]

I went to see the real APT on Saturday at Crewe Heritage Centre - my overwhelming feeling while walking round was a probably forlorn hope that someone will pick up the CADs and make this model a reality because it really is such an iconic train and to see it in the flesh was very special indeed - it is very, very impressive, especially with the front end lights ablaze - and the seats are so comfy!! 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Great idea. One relevant point is that the crowdfunders as a group could well be the biggest creditor. Crowd funding represents approx 25% of total sale price of several projects and could well exceed the tooling/manufacturing bill from one of the factories.  As a substantial group of creditors a strong voice on the committee may well help make the right things happen.  It would also bring into the proceedings someone who knows more about the industry and potential value of things like tooling, CAD etc that the liquidators might not realise.  The liquidators interest is to maximise sale value for creditors but in addition the crowdfunder voice on the committee might also be able to "save" one or more projects for ultimate manufacture by

A N Other at a future date.

At last sense!!   And in fact it looks like that in recent times a very large percentage of DJM's income has come from crowdfundng fees which could be potentially relevant to anybody trying to establish income and expenditure or the cash situation..

[Wild Boar Fell]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

And that a .STL file might not even exist as it is unclear from the thread if work had actually reached that stage.   Probably the best answer would be to start from scratch and establish contact with the factory to see what they have.  But Chinese factories do not work for nothing and they are unlikely to take on anything without cash being paid.  And as Ravenser has said for a multi-vehicle train with lots of ideas planned to be incorporated you will be looking at big money. 

But the essential point is whether or not there is actually a big enough market, and therefore enough willing funders, for a 14 train.

 

 

Given that a 3D print exists, a .STL file must have existed at some point. STL are generally files for 3D printing (hence the name), what I guess you are probably meaning is the master CAD files/ models for the vehicles in an appropriately editable format. I must admit I don't know what file type a tool maker might use.

 

Not a flawless analogy but imagine one as a word document and the other a pdf. The latter may look the same but it's far trickier to make fundamental changes.

 

Hope this clarifies things slightly,

 

Wild Boar Fell

[Colin_McLeod]

Slightly OT. I think the reason so many 14 car APTs were ordered is that the marginal increase in price over shorter trains made the "price per extra coach" attractive and surplus coaches coukd be sold on later.

 

 (Personally I would have simplified the choice to a basic 5 car set al la Hornby (choice of full yellow front or black cab window) then sold further coaches and power cars on the simple basis of "This is the price list. How many of each do you want?"

[spikey]

33 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Slightly OT ...

 

Slightly OT?  Whatever, nearly at the bottom of page 29 and Godwin's Law still hasn't applied. 

 

Anybody fancy running a book on whether or not this hits 50 pages?

Edited June 10, 2019 by spikey
Afterthought

[Vistisen]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

For data protection reasons, any register should be held by the liquidators and NOT on an RMweb thread. 

 

A single representative sounds like a good idea, but I get the feeling everyone wants to be on the committee so perhaps it's not workable. 

 

This all needs to be in the hands of the official liquidators and not a group on a forum. That's why I've been trying to sort out a contact.

I fully approve of this approach. If you ( as a representative) manage to organise should a contact, then on the one hand it would be great if the forum became an official communications channel. Though I suspect that an such contact would very quickly become frightened off by the shear volume and intensity of the posts. I would suggest that the best approach would be a closed forum thread that is only open ( and indeed visible) to members who can prove by means of receipts that they are genuinely DJM customers who are out of pocket.

I'm not such a DJM customer who has lost money, I backed out early on as alarm bells were ringing in my ears, or was that the tinnitus? 

This would truly be a service beyond the call of duty on RMWeb's part. if fact  would go as far as to sign up for Gold Membership to show my appreciation for such responsible action by RMweb

[truffy]

It's already been recognised that not all DJM crowdfunders are likely to be (active) members of RMWeb. So RMWeb acting, in any capacity, as an official communications channel might be deemed inappropriate.

 

Probably better to have direct contact to the liquidator communicated in the same media that DJM communicated its EOI. I guess that's down to the liquidator to pursue.

Edited June 10, 2019 by truffy

[Grovenor]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Personally Phil, I would never wish to be on such a committee. I see benefit in somebody completely impartial being chosen who can work without any prejudice.

Roy

Surely a creditors' representative on a creditors' committee is not there to be impartial but to represent the creditors' interests.

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

For practical purposes:

 

I would suggest that any meeting is likely to be held between Liverpool and Manchester.

 

 Local to that area would be best.

 

 A good handle on accountancy.

 

Knowledge of any relevant law.

 

Knowledge of GDPR.

 

I am sure the list will grow.

 

An email address set up specifically for this.

 

Time to carry this out.

 

A small commitee.

 

A Doctor’s Note.

 

Any volunteers?

 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Widnes Model Centre