DJM, the end.

['CHARD]

1 minute ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It's the best thing I can think of to do with cats. 

 

Aha!  I see, thought you might have been a member of the Pigeon Defence League 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, LongRail said:

 

The liquidators costs are currently  estimated at £33,666 plus £2,000 disbursements although these are not fixed and the solicitors costs are unknown at this stage

seems the only winners will be the liquidators and the solicitors

 

And we are just at the beginning. At this rate, the costs will top out at £100k+ and there does not seem to be anything llike enough assets in the Company to pay that - never mind any return to creditors.

32 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I'm not sure whether it is fair to describe the liquidators as a winner in this. They provide a professional service for which they (quite reasonably) expect to be paid. Their business is what it is, it may not be the most palatable concept to some but as with undertakers and waste sorting and recycling it is an important function that somebody needs to do.

Yes, but in my view that should always be The Insolvency Service, not private practitioners.

[Joseph_Pestell]

40 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I’m guessing that unless the tooling was offered for absolute peanuts or as a desirable model with no need for any remedial work then it would not be attractive to other manufacturers. The Class 71 is a niche prototype and Hornby have an excellent model which has much better running qualities to satisfy any potential future demand for that prototype (the prevalence of deeply discounted Class 71 models would indicate that there is probably not much demand for further runs, at least not for a few years). The J94 is a nice looking model but I’m not sure if anybody else would want the chassis and mechanism, and the prospect of facing a need to redesign the under gubbins would add cost and a need to provide resource to addressing the short comings. A company might consider that a decent proposition if the tooling is available for a low cost, if the cost is higher they might question whether it might be better to just do the whole job again if they really want a J94 in their range. And all of this assumes that the tooling is available to buy and not just retained by the factory regardless of anything the liquidator might do. I do think it could throw a cat among a few kitchens if the factory with the J94 tooling ran off a batch which they sold directly via a shop on Ali or an EBay shop based in China but visible to UK users (there are plenty of Chinese companies selling into the UK), as they would be able to price them very aggressively and I’m guessing it wouldn’t be difficult for them to find a willing enthusiast to give them some prototype info for a small consideration.

As things go on it does appear that there is very little for the liquidators to liquidate other than some disputed assets in China. And those assets are not primarily assets related to crowd funding projects as none of the crowd funding schemes (APT, class 92’s, King) seem to have progressed past CAD and 3D print stage despite repeated assurances over the last few years that they were just about to go into tooling.

 

I think that this a good analysis.

 

I am currently involved with others in a project to take over a business (different hobby) that has been allowed to decline a bit over the last few years. The products are good but need some updating. Is the niche there to make it viable? Very difficult to assess.

[spikey]

3 hours ago, brianCAD said:

 

... But DJM's custom is quite insignificant when viewed against the volume of model railway equipment the Chinese are catering for globally.

 

 

You have a good point there, for sure.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

You might well be making some assumptions about what does or does not exist.  The only known DJM 'own label' tooling which exists is as I've previously listed and I doubt anyone would have much interest in an under-geared Class 71 except possibly for the bogie detail when the Hornby one is out there and stocks of the DJM one appear to exist at various shops.   The J94 is a different kettle of fish to some extent but to turn it into something mechanically acceptable to a wider market will require a lot of investment although I think it might make a rather useful body kit albeit one with a multitude of parts.  But in both those cases if, as has been said in some circles, the factory is trying to make some sort of financial return the prices might not be cheap - unless somebody simply orders re-runs of past detail/decoration combinations (with the previous mechanicals as well).  

 

The Class 17 appears to have not progressed a great distance in terms of tooling so it could be big money to bring it to production - would anybody be willing or able to pay that?  

 

The more recent projects appear to be no more than CADS but if they are as near complete as appears to be the case with the 'King' then all? it might need is perhaps for any outstanding costs to be paid and then tooling and production costs to be paid - so again would anybody consider there is market to justify what will probably be getting towards a six figure investment of c.£100,000?  The Class 92 must inevitably be a dead duck - why bother when there is competition out there and coming to market in the not too distant future?   And as for the APT there is clearly a huge amount of work to do with - according to one reliable source - CADs existing for only two vehicles out of the entire train: and just how good are those CADs?  So to get an APT, even with a few coaches let alone a whole rake, would be a huge investment and once it gets anywhere near market Hornby will no doubt 'do a Class 66' and dust off its old tooling and pump out something for less than a quarter of the price.

I don't think someone will just parachute in and save the day, but clearly there is something to salvage and a company like Hattons are probably in a position to take some elements on.  Hornby could even snap up the J94 (like they did with the Dapol version) and put in a Hornby Chassis, or in an odd twist of fate, Dapol pick up the DJM version and put it on one of their chassis. 

 

I think in reality the APT will not resurface but there may be a better case for it than we know - once someone sees the books they will know true take up and if there is something there.

[Phil Parker]

16 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I don't think someone will just parachute in and save the day, but clearly there is something to salvage and a company like Hattons are probably in a position to take some elements on.  Hornby could even snap up the J94 (like they did with the Dapol version) and put in a Hornby Chassis, or in an odd twist of fate, Dapol pick up the DJM version and put it on one of their chassis 

 

Has anyone tried to mate a DJM body and Hornby chassis? I have a feeling it might not be easy,  or for a RTR model requiring tooling, cheap.

[tomparryharry]

The Hornby chassis probably works well, but it looks wrong. The cast wheels on an austerity has some highly distinctive wheels; SIC.A on the leading & trailing wheelsets, with the SIC.B on the drivers. For some, it's probably just a minor  imperfection. For me, it's an eyesore. Some very late austerities had a different spoke profile, and as such, comes fairly close to the Hornby/Dapol  model. But far & away the unique wheel profile is a distinctive feature of the real thing. 

 

Les 1952 of this parish has posted about this some time back, but I can't find it at the moment. I guess that someone will 'do' a quality chassis to remove the DJM model chassis, and get a decent mechanism underneath. High Level, perhaps?

 

I'm not about to mess about with the 3 austerities I have. They run just right. If people paid their bills on time, they'd still be making them, and I'd still be buying them. Grrrr.....

 

I should say that this is only my personal observation. Others will no doubt have different views.

 

Ian.

[RedgateModels]

If I had a "spare" DJM Austerity I would have a go at fitting a more conventional can motor and removing a few gears. Not sure if the rods would need modifying to take up play etc but it might be pretty simple to sort the chassis shortcomings.

 

I'm not going to start hacking about my Yellow Peril anytime soon though .....

[JSpencer]

Having had both J94s apart, its not a practical proposition to put a Hornby chassis with DJM body.

 

The gearing is not the problem, its the motor. It is too small and has little inertia (no flywheel momentum).  There is a tonne of space to fit a bigger motor if someone fancies retooling just that part.

The second issue is the weight distribution. I'd remove the weight from the bunker (use it as the speaker space) and place it above the drivers.

Ideally you might want to forego the middle gear and have a sprung axle.

 

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And we are just at the beginning. At this rate, the costs will top out at £100k+ and there does not seem to be anything llike enough assets in the Company to pay that - never mind any return to creditors.

 

The quote is an estimate for the job, not what has been spent so far. That said, I don't see a return...

 

Roy

[Steamport Southport]

46 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

The Hornby chassis probably works well, but it looks wrong. The cast wheels on an austerity has some highly distinctive wheels; SIC.A on the leading & trailing wheelsets, with the SIC.B on the drivers. For some, it's probably just a minor  imperfection. For me, it's an eyesore. Some very late austerities had a different spoke profile, and as such, comes fairly close to the Hornby/Dapol  model. But far & away the unique wheel profile is a distinctive feature of the real thing. 

 

Les 1952 of this parish has posted about this some time back, but I can't find it at the moment. I guess that someone will 'do' a quality chassis to remove the DJM model chassis, and get a decent mechanism underneath. High Level, perhaps?

 

I'm not about to mess about with the 3 austerities I have. They run just right. If people paid their bills on time, they'd still be making them, and I'd still be buying them. Grrrr.....

 

I should say that this is only my personal observation. Others will no doubt have different views.

 

Ian.

 

There are about half a dozen Austerity chassis kits out there. Chassis has never been a problem, even going back to the Kitmaster days replacement chassis has been available.

 

It's getting bodies that's difficult....

 

 

 

Jason

[Widnes Model Centre]

Am l right in thinking that nothing has been produced with Crowdfunders  money? 

 

Reading this and associated posts would indicate that tens if not hundreds of thousand pounds have been deposited in various projects.

 

Is this correct?

 

I have read indicators that there is nothing left in the pot for those who paid some substantial deposits and smaller amounts which add up to a great deal of cash. 

 

Nothing of substance seems to have been achieved. If this is true and not conjecture, where has the money gone, on butties at Crewe? 

 

If if this is the case, it certainly proves that there is absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. 

[truffy]

9 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

where has the money gone

The liquidator will, presumably, be working on that...with better information than available to anyone here.

[Ryde-on-time]

12 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

Am l right in thinking that nothing has been produced with Crowdfunders  money? 

 

Reading this and associated posts would indicate that tens if not hundreds of thousand pounds have been deposited in various projects.

 

Is this correct?

 

I have read indicators that there is nothing left in the pot for those who paid some substantial deposits and smaller amounts which add up to a great deal of cash. 

 

Nothing of substance seems to have been achieved. If this is true and not conjecture, where has the money gone, on butties at Crewe? 

 

If if this is the case, it certainly proves that there is absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. 

The Class 71 was crowdfunded (although there were also some special editions available from Hattons & Kernow etc.)

 

 

[Widnes Model Centre]

3 minutes ago, truffy said:

The liquidator will, presumably, be working on that...with better information than available to anyone here.

 

Where would that "better information come from" though?

 

[truffy]

2 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Where would that "better information come from" though?

 

At a wild guess...the books/DJ's personal records.

[black and decker boy]

RT Models produce a very nice brass chassis for the Austerity / J94. My DJM bodies* now wear them with pride.

 

*Other bodies available and compatible 

[melmoth]

16 minutes ago, truffy said:

At a wild guess...the books/DJ's personal records.

 

Can I sell you some snake oil and a London Bridge?

[royaloak]

4 hours ago, LongRail said:

The liquidators costs are currently  estimated at £33,666 plus £2,000 disbursements although these are not fixed and the solicitors costs are unknown at this stage

seems the only winners will be the liquidators and the solicitors

Was it ever any different?

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

( On the J94 )

 

Les 1952 of this parish has posted about this some time back, but I can't find it at the moment. I guess that someone will 'do' a quality chassis to remove the DJM model chassis, and get a decent mechanism underneath. High Level, perhaps?

 

 

The RT Models chassis fits the DJM loco, with a High Level gearbox (one of the ones with a flexible link to the final drive gear).  To get a good fit, the raised ridges inside the bottom of the boiler moulding where the DJ motor is screwed are removed, and the opening in the firebox mouldings need enlarging.  End result is a chassis which can be threaded onto the footplate+boiler mouldings.  Add some tie-downs to keep the motor in position (so it doesn't rotate around the driven axle) and there is a lot of spare room left inside the boiler/tanks for lead, DCC sound chip, speaker, stay-alive unit.   I'm helping someone construct one at the moment in EM (beam compensation, HighLevel hornblocks), and we've got it all running on the track, next step is a tiny bit of fettling and then adding the sound/electronics stuff.

 

If wanting to take this model building topic further, suggest spinning out a new thread.  (Or a moderator moving this and followups to a new thread somewhere).

 

- Nigel

[woodenhead]

24 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Where would that "better information come from" though?

 

What are the Duties of an Liquidator?

• Once appointed, the liquidator is responsible for:
• Realising the assets of the insolvent company and achieving the best possible price;
• Address outstanding claims against the limited company and satisfy the claims as set-out by law;
• Distributing the returns to the company’s creditors in order of priority;
• Acting in the best interests of the creditors (not the directors).
• Maximising the return for creditors

Maximising the return for creditors is the liquidator’s primary responsibility.

As part of this duty, they may apply to the court to restore property that has been disposed of in an unfair way. For example, assets may have been sold to a connected business for less than their market value.

 

Investigating the Possibility of Wrongful or Fraudulent Trading

A liquidator can also take action against current or previous company directors who did not act in the best interests of creditors (Section 214). For example, if the company continued to trade and make further losses after becoming insolvent, the directors can be made personally liable for the debts.

 

https://www.companydebt.com/liquidation/what-is-the-role-of-a-liquidator-in-company-liquidation/

[Widnes Model Centre]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

What are the Duties of an Liquidator?

• Once appointed, the liquidator is responsible for:
• Realising the assets of the insolvent company and achieving the best possible price;
• Address outstanding claims against the limited company and satisfy the claims as set-out by law;
• Distributing the returns to the company’s creditors in order of priority;
• Acting in the best interests of the creditors (not the directors).
• Maximising the return for creditors

Maximising the return for creditors is the liquidator’s primary responsibility.

As part of this duty, they may apply to the court to restore property that has been disposed of in an unfair way. For example, assets may have been sold to a connected business for less than their market value.

 

Investigating the Possibility of Wrongful or Fraudulent Trading

A liquidator can also take action against current or previous company directors who did not act in the best interests of creditors (Section 214). For example, if the company continued to trade and make further losses after becoming insolvent, the directors can be made personally liable for the debts.

 

https://www.companydebt.com/liquidation/what-is-the-role-of-a-liquidator-in-company-liquidation/

 

Hi, aware of what the Liquidators Duties are. However they can only work off the information they have or find.

 

In another totally anonymous Voluntary Liquidation, the liquidator was presented with evidence of £x,000 the company was in receipt of. The figure was given by a Director. The true figure was actually not discovered until the company had been struck off with it appears, no further redress as witnesses hadn't come forward. The creditors got nothing.

 

Mot saying this is the case but how many have actually been in touch or are blissfully unaware?

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

 in my view that should always be The Insolvency Service, not private practitioners.

 

I am afraid you misunderstand the part played by the insolvency service.  Do a Google and you will find the gov.uk pages - which will help you find a private practitioner in your area.

 

Their function is to ease the process and to oversee the practice of the private companies that cover insolvency.  It is not to do the insolvency work itself.  

 

It is, if you like, the difference between Ofcom and ITV.  ITV do the broadcasting, Ofcom oversee that broadcasts meet the necessary standards and laws.

[njee20]

 

3 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Was it ever any different?

As said, they win in the same way an undertaker does when someone dies. they may not be providing a glamorous service, but they’re providing a service, and  getting paid for it. 

 

It’s not the job of the liquidators to find out what went wrong, merely to dispose of the assets, wind up the company and return as much to the creditors as possible.

 

That said it’s certainly an interesting question. Dave was at pains to point out that all the ‘pots’ for each project were ringfenced. Given we know various models hadn’t progressed anywhere beyond CAD, there should be funds still available. I wouldn’t expect the liquidator to provide any insight on this, but any documents shared may provide some clues. The obvious thing is whether Dave drew a salary, although that does go against his “ring fenced” statements. Like virtually all of this thread, however, it remains total speculation and conjecture. Just don’t expect clarity any time soon. 

[Hippo]

18 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The RT Models chassis fits the DJM loco, with a High Level gearbox (one of the ones with a flexible link to the final drive gear).  To get a good fit, the raised ridges inside the bottom of the boiler moulding where the DJ motor is screwed are removed, and the opening in the firebox mouldings need enlarging.  End result is a chassis which can be threaded onto the footplate+boiler mouldings.  Add some tie-downs to keep the motor in position (so it doesn't rotate around the driven axle) and there is a lot of spare room left inside the boiler/tanks for lead, DCC sound chip, speaker, stay-alive unit.   I'm helping someone construct one at the moment in EM (beam compensation, HighLevel hornblocks), and we've got it all running on the track, next step is a tiny bit of fettling and then adding the sound/electronics stuff.

 

If wanting to take this model building topic further, suggest spinning out a new thread.  (Or a moderator moving this and followups to a new thread somewhere).

 

- Nigel

Hi Nigel. Could you start a new thread on this if the Mod's allow. It is something I have been looking into and would be interested to see your results and what you are using for wheels etc

 

Maybe the mods could unlock the DJM J94 thread and this could be discussed there.

 

Thanks

Owen